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Author Topic: The Political Thread  (Read 1179378 times)

IndigoPrime

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #15690 on: 28 May, 2019, 10:36:03 am »
It's perhaps worrying to note that the parties that did well Brexit Party, SNP, Plaid Cymru are all Nationalists of varying shades.
Well, first, the biggest winners of the night were arguably the Lib Dems. The next biggest winners were probably the Greens. Lib Dems are unionist, but not nationalist. Like the Greens, they are internationalist. Also, SNP/Plaid are pro-independence but internationalist in outlook. There’s no real overlap in policy between them and whatever vanity project Farage is currently doing.

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Bit of a sobering realisation but that seems to be the way of things at the moment — a retreat from integration towards separate Nations.
Again, it’s not fair to conflate, say, Scotland, which rightly feels is being forced out of the EU against its will, and wants to be part of a union of countries, with BXP, who seem to think the UK can magic back the days of Empire, where we told everyone else what to do. SNP are collaborative-minded; BXP are isolationist disaster capitalists. As Tjm86 says, Plaid are along similar lines to the SNP in these regards.

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Perhaps a General Election might save us, but I doubt we'll get one.
‘Volatile’ is perhaps the best descriptive term of a GE. There’s no telling what we’d get. Current polling suggests anything from a small Labour majority to a landslide BXP one, depending on a few percentage point tweaks. FPTP to some extent ‘protects’ the current big two, but there are tipping points that are now quite easily reached. Even if a party won a majority, it would be in a deeply undemocratic manner (some projections put Labour in government on 28% of the popular vote).

sheridan

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #15691 on: 28 May, 2019, 12:38:52 pm »
All that matters is that little has changed since the collapse of the main industries back in the eighties, or that to get even a poorly paying job you need to commute crazy distances (okay, maybe not crazy but with limited options a 10 mile journey can take over an hour at the wrong time of day on a regular basis).


I thought an hour commute was pretty normal, but point taken...

Dandontdare

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #15692 on: 28 May, 2019, 01:28:50 pm »
I'm just relieved that I won't be represented by Tommy Robinson, who polled a humiliating 2.2% and lost his deposit - of course, this is all part of a media establishment plot to censor him, he said as he slunk out of the count early.

Funt Solo

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #15693 on: 28 May, 2019, 06:40:26 pm »
Why does Jeremy Corbyn keep insisting that the Labour Party has a clear Brexit policy?  It seems like most voters are voting to either leave Europe (Brexit) or not leave Europe (remain).  Labour's policy is Bremain, or Rexit.  I can understand his dilemma (Labour voters are a mix of the two sides), but he looks pretty stupid sitting on the fence losing both sides at the same time.

And now I even feel sorry for Alistair Campbell (a wee bit).
fate amenable to change

Leigh S

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #15694 on: 28 May, 2019, 07:21:29 pm »
My reading of it may be an over simplification, bbut it seems simple to me:

First off, get a General Election so Labour can renegotiate a "Workers" Brexit.  Failing that, a second referendum

The only confusion I can see there is why you wouldnt get a ref on the "Workers" Brexit, but presumably it isnt a great leap of logic to say if Corbyn wins an election on the promise of said "Workers" brexit by such a margin he can get it through Parliament, then there is assumed consent granted from the Election result?

Not difficult to understand, but would be simpler as "second ref on ANY deal", though knowing what we know about how referendums can bloww up in your face, perhaps there is method in the madness?

IndigoPrime

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #15695 on: 28 May, 2019, 07:29:01 pm »
The problem is Labour has intentionally positioned another referendum in an unreachable position, and that’s after the entire thing was knobbled at conference anyway. A slew of CLPs demanded Labour come out in favour of a second ref. 80% of members are in favour. 75% of voters. So, being the great democrat he is, Corbyn decided along with Milne and McClusky that all those people could go fuck themselves, because they all want Brexit.

As for Labour’s “workers” Brexit, I’ve still no idea what the hell that is. From what I can tell, Labour’s Brexit position is almost identical to May’s. Legally speaking, there’s barely a sheet of paper between them. The only thing that stops Corbyn three-line-whipping in favour of the withdrawal agreement is that it doesn’t have Labour branding.

Even today, after being given a kicking by the Lib Dems, and only ending up ahead of the Greens on MEP count because CHUKTIGWTF acted as a remain spoiler, they STILL can’t come out with a unified policy. Corbyn wants to piss about for four months, for reasons. Abbott wants a second referendum, but stops short of saying Remain would be an option. Thornberry has apparently had enough, and has thrown her hat into the ring for “I’d quite like Corbyn’s job” and has said a second ref under all circumstances. Although, given her form, she’ll probably backtrack on that by tomorrow.

There is no method in the madness. Labour probably thought triangulation was going well. From what I hear from Labour activists, they still do, largely on the basis they are “five points ahead of the Tories”. Yes, well fucking done, guys. You’ve just managed to lose support less rapidly than they have, and so while they’ve slumped from ~43% in polling to 23%, you’ve gone from ~40% to 28%. Although the latest polling suggests that’s more like 23. And the Tories are on similar. As are the Lib Dems and BXP. Which under FPTP makes for the most volatile electoral situation imaginable, where we could see anything from a big Labour majority to a full-on BXP majority, just from a few percentage points going one way or the other.

Still, a second referendum would be too dangerous.

Leigh S

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #15696 on: 28 May, 2019, 08:01:40 pm »
don't disagree with any of that, barring I'm not sure what the evidence is for Corbyn wanting a deal much like Mays - any source you can point to for that?

The problem is that whichever way you cut the cake, you have a potential 50/50 split that can never find common ground - its oil and water - if a second ref would win for remain, then surely Lib Dems are on for power next General Election rather than Corbyn?  And if not, then a second referendum is as likely to end in disaster anyway?

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #15697 on: 28 May, 2019, 09:20:24 pm »

In a couple of decades, maybe sooner, there'll be a handful of pan-European parties vying to run all Europe and everyone will be squabbling over how crap and self-serving they all are right across the continent.

The same people will still be in charge of money creation, the same people will still be pulling the strings, and the rest of us will still be struggling and arguing and waiting for the Right Person to be elected so we can all be saved.

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IndigoPrime

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #15698 on: 28 May, 2019, 10:41:06 pm »
don't disagree with any of that, barring I'm not sure what the evidence is for Corbyn wanting a deal much like Mays - any source you can point to for that?

Once you strip away all of the things a future govt cannot be bound by (eg worker rights) and elements Labour are intentionally vague on (eg single market), you get a customs union. So that’s basically what May wants, only she hasn’t called it such. (Add on SM for goods to attempt to not fuck up Ireland too much.)

No chance of LDs getting power in a GE. Best they can hope for under FPTP must be around 100 seats – and that would take very special and specific circumstances.

Smith

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #15699 on: 29 May, 2019, 08:30:16 pm »
Well,Sargon killed UKIP.
We all knew that wasnt going to end well,but this is like next level bad.He nuked a whole political party,not many youtubers can say that.  ::)

Jim_Campbell

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #15700 on: 29 May, 2019, 08:58:47 pm »
Well,Sargon killed UKIP.
We all knew that wasnt going to end well,but this is like next level bad.He nuked a whole political party,not many youtubers can say that.  ::)

No, he didn’t. UKIP was always a Farage vanity project — the Brexit Party was in the planning stages three years ago, when Farage realised that running a political party meant he (and his paymasters) couldn’t exert sufficient control over its organisational structures. Farage just transferred the entire support base of UKIP to his ‘new’ party.

The new BXP project is a limited company over which Farage has complete control. It has no manifesto and no polices because it doesn’t need them, and because Farage doesn’t want to have to commit to anything that he might have to answer for down the line. It’s literally broadcasting Farage’s disdain for the democratic process in everything it does.
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Smith

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #15701 on: 29 May, 2019, 09:10:51 pm »
He didnt really help them,either.

The Legendary Shark

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #15702 on: 12 June, 2019, 10:20:10 am »
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TordelBack

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #15703 on: 13 June, 2019, 08:16:22 am »
Wish I could get my head around the 'truth' of 5G, it's such a sea of bizarre claims and potential consequences. 

Meanwhile, last night a dog-tired mind, and persistent longing of almost k.d. lang proportions for an electric camper van, led me on a deep-dive into the current facts of matters climatic. 

Short version: I'd invest heavily in suicide pill futures.

I look at the fatuous cultural inbreds vying to be the UK's Village Idiot, still campaigning largely on a platform of invented fear of handfuls of Latvian fruit pickers and the survivors of Britain's highly-profitable bombs, and I try to imagine what's going to happen in our or (at best) our children's lifetimes when literal BILLIONS of people rock up at our drowned doorsteps once much of Africa, Australasia, and all of India become completely uninhabitable over the next 70 years . They're diverting your country's future into a dead end over lies about a non-existant 'flood' of swarthy rapists, while real inescapable horror bears down on us all, just not in the current electoral cycle.

Meanwhile the Irish government, another unelected PM* by the way, kvetches about hotel-room toiletries and tree felling for bus corridors.  For the love of humanity, GET A FUCKING SHIFT ON.

Anyway, all-hail CBT, not so very long ago I'd be non-functional and non-verbal this morning, instead of pushing on with work and planning a camping trip. La-la-la-la-la-la-la.



*I KNOW.  But when almost all electoral rhetoric is about Comrade Hamas and Ol' Strong & Stable, the cult of party leader personality means a PM is effectively chosen by the electorate in a GE.  Or in the case of both May and Varadkar, not.


« Last Edit: 13 June, 2019, 08:22:58 am by TordelBack »

IndigoPrime

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #15704 on: 13 June, 2019, 09:45:22 am »
5G reminds me of the exact same shit that happened with Wi-Fi back in the day, people freaking out because it would give them cancer.