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Author Topic: The Political Thread  (Read 1128265 times)

shaolin_monkey

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #16035 on: 12 September, 2019, 12:14:22 am »
As is always worth pointing out, foreign interference in UK elections is not exceptional but the standard.

Germane to that, here's an interesting article by South Africa's Daily Maverick detailing how the UK security services turned the Guardian into their sock puppet to the point that independent journalists and human rights organisations no longer bring sensitive stories to the paper because they no longer trust it.

Let’s avoid the media then, and see what the academic viewpoint is.

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018/11/14/the-extent-of-russian-backed-fraud-means-the-referendum-is-invalid/

IndigoPrime

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #16036 on: 12 September, 2019, 09:54:18 am »
Chaos being normalised. Johnson doing Chinese-style state broadcast instead of attending prior commitment at a democratic investigation. Parliament literally shut down on a whim (and there’s nothing in law to stop this being done for, say, the entire parliamentary term, because our constitution only works if those in charge play fair). Gearing up for a general election where a worst-case Brexit will be forced through by a majority government backed by a third of the electorate.

This is all going swimmingly, isn’t it?

IAMTHESYSTEM

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #16037 on: 12 September, 2019, 11:03:37 am »
Chaos being normalised. Johnson doing Chinese-style state broadcast instead of attending prior commitment at a democratic investigation. Parliament literally shut down on a whim (and there’s nothing in law to stop this being done for, say, the entire parliamentary term, because our constitution only works if those in charge play fair). Gearing up for a general election where a worst-case Brexit will be forced through by a majority government backed by a third of the electorate.

This is all going swimmingly. Isn't it?

Yes, it's horrifying. Bo-Jo acts like his ogreish pal Trump, a President with questionable legitimacy. More division, less cohesion, almost invites disaster. Maybe that's the scheme with chaos and social breakdown on the streets people tend to look for a 'strongman' to save them. We all know that would favour conservative forces and their Law and Order spin. The chilling times we live in.
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shaolin_monkey

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #16038 on: 12 September, 2019, 11:12:35 am »
Yep.  And it's all thanks to dark money and Russia, playing the UK populace via normal and social media.  Russia couldn't have done more damage to the UK and the cohesion of the EU without an actual physical war.  They've played a blinder.

Professor Bear

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #16039 on: 12 September, 2019, 12:38:18 pm »
As is always worth pointing out, foreign interference in UK elections is not exceptional but the standard.

Let’s avoid the media then, and see what the academic viewpoint is.

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018/11/14/the-extent-of-russian-backed-fraud-means-the-referendum-is-invalid/

You seem to be under the impression I am disputing that there was interference in the EUref, when I was actually saying that there is interference by outside actors in every British vote, the obvious example of this being the constant drip of poison from the headlines of foreign press barons.  Considering the number of electoral law violations the Tories are regularly charged with, setting a precedent for ignoring the results of votes that were compromised would arguably end British democracy overnight.

edit: Which in theory sounds great, tbh, but you can understand why the establishment aren't keen to go down that route.
« Last Edit: 12 September, 2019, 12:43:12 pm by Professor Bear »

shaolin_monkey

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #16040 on: 12 September, 2019, 02:47:25 pm »
Apologies! Wasn’t making myself clear. I agree there has been and will always be interference.

I think my original point, probably not made remotely clear, is ‘it just me, or has that interference been ramped up to the nth degree in the last three or more years?’

It would have helped if I’d framed it like that originally.

radiator

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #16041 on: 12 September, 2019, 05:28:46 pm »
As with the election of Trump (and the Mueller investigation), the whole Russia angle (imho) has been overplayed, and stems from a desire to shift the blame for our malaise onto an external actor, when in fact the causes of the dysfunction in our society are much closer to home. If we're gong to blame anyone, the likes of the Telegraph and the Daily Mail deserve far more blame than a few Russian bots shitposting on facebook.

The uncomfortable fact about both Brexit and Trump is that they were both somewhat inevitable (in hindsight), and can't be dismissed as the result of some big conspiracy, or social media manipulation. They both happened for a reason. Trump supporters and Brexiteers are by and large right to feel aggrieved. Their anger is understandable, and things do need to change. It's just that (imo) they have been conditioned by right wing politicians to target their anger at the wrong people. Same as it ever was.

shaolin_monkey

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #16042 on: 12 September, 2019, 06:53:28 pm »
Yep, I’ll go with that to a certain extent, as 10 years of all the papers constantly laying the blame for our ills on the EU, with a huge slab of lies, hyperbole and racism on top, can’t NOT have had an effect on the nation’s psyche.

But again, it’s the entities with money doing this. The narrative is not being controlled by the populace.

Funt Solo

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #16043 on: 12 September, 2019, 07:06:41 pm »
Quote
Trump supporters and Brexiteers are by and large right to feel aggrieved.


I think I disagree, but then I have to make an assumption as to what you're suggesting they have a right to feel aggrieved about.

I can think of things where I don't think they have the right to feel aggrieved. Like, a Brexiteer doesn't have the right to feel aggrieved about the EU forcing the UK to maintain a certain banana curvature, because that was just a load of shit thought up by a younger Boris.

Trump supporters don't have the right to feel aggrieved by a wave of criminal immigrants, because there was no data to suggest that the asylum seekers at the border were criminals. It's just that Trump called them rapists and thieves.
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radiator

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #16044 on: 12 September, 2019, 07:50:52 pm »
Quote
Trump supporters and Brexiteers are by and large right to feel aggrieved.


I think I disagree, but then I have to make an assumption as to what you're suggesting they have a right to feel aggrieved about.

I can think of things where I don't think they have the right to feel aggrieved. Like, a Brexiteer doesn't have the right to feel aggrieved about the EU forcing the UK to maintain a certain banana curvature, because that was just a load of shit thought up by a younger Boris.

Trump supporters don't have the right to feel aggrieved by a wave of criminal immigrants, because there was no data to suggest that the asylum seekers at the border were criminals. It's just that Trump called them rapists and thieves.

Maybe I didn't explain myself clearly, but that's sort of my point - the anger is real/arguably justified, but that anger is being directed at the wrong targets. Its the same old 'blame the other' tactic.

I'm not even remotely an expert on the subject, but the real problem, as I see it, is one of wealth inequality (the North/South divide in both the US and the UK, decades of right wing/neoliberal economic policy and the decline of industry, trade unions etc etc etc). Like, it's not hard to see why large swathes of the population feel disenfranchised and left behind, and why that anger eventually led to a backlash, and a rejection of the status quo.

I've travelled a lot around the US in the last few years, and the inequality and rural/urban divide here is even more stark than it is in the UK. Whole towns just cast off and left to rot, an out of control crisis of homelessness and poverty that is bizarrely, maddeningly underreported. Even five years ago when I moved here it was easy to sense a feeling of unease and foreboding in the air every time I stepped out of my metropolitan bubble.

It's easy to poke fun at Brexiteers and Trump supporters and dismiss them all as loons, but it isn't going to make them go away. Pointing the finger at Russia and wasting time with things like the Mueller investigation is just avoiding talking about the real, underlying social problems that led us to this mess.

That's my two cents, anyway.

Quote
10 years of all the papers constantly laying the blame for our ills on the EU, with a huge slab of lies, hyperbole and racism on top, can’t NOT have had an effect on the nation’s psyche.

More like 40 years, isn't it? There's been spurious, bendy banana type stories about the EU for as long as I can remember.

shaolin_monkey

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #16045 on: 12 September, 2019, 10:40:07 pm »

Funt Solo

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #16046 on: 12 September, 2019, 10:41:27 pm »
Thanks for explaining: I see what you mean.  The outside manipulation by other states is partly just taking advantage of problems that already exist at a local level.
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shaolin_monkey

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #16047 on: 12 September, 2019, 10:50:01 pm »
Indeed. At ground level we are completely fucked. Voluntary Services are being stripped to the bone. Just in Wales we’ve lost youth services, child mental health services, drug and alcohol services, community centres, Greek areas, woodland areas, etc etc etc. Homelessness is soaring, poverty in general is soaring, child poverty is particularly awful, and so on.

Unions are almost a thing of the past, apathy is rife, and the electorate are being led by the nose by the media.

Even when the UN Special Rapporteur rocked up and told everyone what a dreadful poverty stricken shitshow it was the government and media barely batted an eyelid. Why would you report those things though, if the populace IS EXACTLY WHERE YOU WANT IT TO BE? Hungry, abused, powerless.

The working class is now the service class, unwittingly servile to those who control the narrative - the millionaires and billionaires.

shaolin_monkey

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #16048 on: 12 September, 2019, 11:37:35 pm »
Apologies for the typo - not Greek areas, GREEN areas.

Though the smashing of plates has risen, as sadly domestic violence is also on the increase.

The Legendary Shark

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #16049 on: 12 September, 2019, 11:53:37 pm »


Hungry, abused, powerless.



We are not powerless. We are the power - that's they're afraid to tell us, and what we're afraid to admit.