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Author Topic: The Political Thread  (Read 880661 times)

SuperSurfer

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #150 on: 14 April, 2010, 05:20:36 pm »
Didn't realise that I'm a Greenie 44%, with Lib Dem 33% and Labour 22%. That does surprise me. I found that difficult and I would like to revisit my choices. Definitely makes me want to look deeper into the policies of the parties so good website. Really gets one thinking.

Changing the subject somewhat, I have to say I'm liking the design of the Tory manifesto. Nice illustrations contrasting with the sober text. The Labour manifesto is lame and the Lib Dem's is dullo. (Could I really vote for a party with a logo that bad?)

Still no idea who I will vote for and not even sure that I will.


Robin Low

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #151 on: 14 April, 2010, 05:30:41 pm »
Unfortunately we also have laws against possession of recreational drugs, which should be nobody's business but the user's, ....... and laws which insist drivers have to wear a seatbelt and motorcyclists must wear a helmet because the government has decided it knows better than they do what's good for them.

Not having those laws would be fine if it wasn't for the fact that when thing go wrong, and they do so all the time, other people and society in general are affected.

If drivers who fail to wear seatbelts, or simply speed, are willing to opt out of NHS care and go private (assuming they live, of course), then we can scrap those laws.

If all the recreational drug users used private support services when they start suffering mental health disorders, then we can scrap those laws, too.

And it's not always as simple as a government deciding what's good for us - although a degree of ideology will be involved in many instances, many laws are evidence-based, whether they seem excessive or not.

Personally, I only have a problem with laws that cause suffering, not ones that merely cause irritation or inconvenience.


Regards

Robin


The Legendary Shark

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #152 on: 14 April, 2010, 05:33:51 pm »
Healthcare only for those who deserve it? I can't agree with that.

Peter Wolf

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #153 on: 14 April, 2010, 05:45:01 pm »
Healthcare only for those who deserve it? I can't agree with that.

Who is proposing that ?

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The Legendary Shark

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #154 on: 14 April, 2010, 06:35:37 pm »
I was responding to this: "If drivers who fail to wear seatbelts, or simply speed, are willing to opt out of NHS care and go private (assuming they live, of course)..."

I am totally against treating people according to a non-medical opinion. "We won't treat alcoholics because they're alcoholics," "we won't treat accident victims who failed to take adequate precautions" or "we won't treat drug users because they use drugs." These sentiments are anathema to me. It's a bit like the death penalty in that if somebody dies and it's later found that they were actually innocent/wearing a seat belt after all, it's hard to put that right.

Once the Government finances are sorted out properly, as I keep banging on about, then there'll be enough money available to the NHS to banish thoughts of cost-cutting through selective treatments forever.

Robin Low

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #155 on: 14 April, 2010, 06:39:08 pm »
Healthcare only for those who deserve it? I can't agree with that.

I can't either, and I certainly wasn't advocating it - my issue was with Usher's point about laws that infringe personal liberty.

The reality is that there will always be a finite pot of money to support members of the public in times of need. We can do the best we can to make sure public services use it efficiently and wisely, but at the same time the public has to accept some laws that may or may not be inconvenient are there to save that money, as well as protect us from our own stupidity and selfishness, and generally reduce suffering.

Now the right of assembly is another matter... although, sadly, it's not hard to see how that could put pressure on police budgets, because large masses of human beings do need to be managed.

Regards

Robin

Matt Timson

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #156 on: 14 April, 2010, 06:53:06 pm »
I am pleasantly surprised by this thread.  Carry on.
Pffft...

Jim_Campbell

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #157 on: 14 April, 2010, 07:06:11 pm »
I am pleasantly surprised by this thread.  Carry on.

Nazi!

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Jim
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The Legendary Shark

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #158 on: 14 April, 2010, 07:13:46 pm »
Large masses of human beings largely manage themselves. This is not to say that we don't need laws and police, I think these things are as important to society as water and housing. The thing about police and laws are that they exist to manage extraordinary circumstances such as accidents and crime. For the most part, communities of people are perfectly capable of running their own affairs without everything turning into Mad Max.

For millions of years, humans got by without needing to be told how to live by some almighty leader. Each tribe looked after itself, kept its own laws and customs, traded and cooperated with other tribes, occasionally went to war. It's all perfectly natural and there's no great trick to it.

Today, of course, we live a lot differently and I think we've forgotten just how much of a social animal a human being is. Humans like to live in tribes, they love being part of a group and we have certain social skills hardwired into us. The truth is, if the government fell apart tomorrow, there would be some chaos, sure - but the majority of communities would remain intact. Many would most likely become stronger.

Now, if you meant that large masses of human beings in the modern world need to have their environment managed (by which I mean such things as keeping the sewers unblocked, making sure the water and food supplies are properly managed, roads and hospitals are built and there are enough ambulances and fire engines to go around etc., etc.) then I agree. This is what governments are for, to allow us all to live as closely to our own needs, beliefs and desires as possible and not, not ever, to tell us how to live beyond one or two widely accepted expectations such as not murdering or raping one another and suchlike.

To add a couple of RPM to Aleister Crowley's incredible rotating corpse, "And 'Do No Harm' shall be the whole of the Law."

Then again, I am often accused of being an unrealistic idealist so please feel free to leave me and the faeries alone to discuss our Utopia snuggled up inside this disused molehill.

Robin Low

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #159 on: 14 April, 2010, 07:41:01 pm »
This is what governments are for, to allow us all to live as closely to our own needs, beliefs and desires as possible and not, not ever, to tell us how to live beyond one or two widely accepted expectations such as not murdering or raping one another and suchlike.

I have a much more cynical view of humans and history, and I think part of a government's job is to protect individuals and societies from our own worst traits, such as our ignorance, selfishness and outright stupidity. Obviously, being composed largely of humans, governments are capable of the same behaviour at times, but that's why elections are not a bad thing every now and again.

Inevitably, every government is going to do some things that some of us don't agree with, but we have to make a distinction between serious issues and inconveniences.

It's also important to recognise that while any of us can argue hypothetically over the rights and wrongs any issue under the sun, governments and politicians actually have to make some real, practical decisions. We have to hope, and demand, that they make decisions based on facts and often harsh realities, rather than political ideology, greed and selfishness. I think those three latter issues are the root causes of most of our problems.

Regards

Robin

vzzbux

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #160 on: 14 April, 2010, 07:51:34 pm »
100% BNP. I'm to don my jack boots.








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mogzilla

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #161 on: 14 April, 2010, 08:14:43 pm »
100% BNP. I'm to don my jack boots.


i dont feel as bad now, i'm only 75% bnp and 25% ukip :-X







V

radiator

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #162 on: 14 April, 2010, 09:13:29 pm »
Quote
For the most part, communities of people are perfectly capable of running their own affairs without everything turning into Mad Max.

I don't agree at all - I don't think it would take much at all for the facade of society to slip completely. I definitely subscribe to the Joker's philosophy that "when the chips are down, civilized people will eat each other".

I wish my view of humanity was as optimistic as yours!

Quote
For millions of years, humans got by without needing to be told how to live by some almighty leader. Each tribe looked after itself, kept its own laws and customs, traded and cooperated with other tribes, occasionally went to war. It's all perfectly natural and there's no great trick to it.

For millions of years we also had famine, plague, genocide, invaders, slavery, widespread superstiton, a life expectancy of 30, no healthcare, no leisure time, no means of mass transport, no internet, no xboxes. I think I'm a lot happer with the way things are now.

The Legendary Shark

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #163 on: 14 April, 2010, 09:22:51 pm »
Ah, but we were 'appy then...

radiator

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #164 on: 14 April, 2010, 09:34:37 pm »
Quote
Ah, but we were 'appy then...

The concept of 'happiness' is a modern invention, surely? I would imagine that until relatively recently life for the vast majority of people was an endless, desperate struggle to simply scrabble together enough food to survive, interspersed with periods of literally unimaginable horror and suffering.
« Last Edit: 14 April, 2010, 09:36:14 pm by radiator »