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Author Topic: “Truth? You can't handle the truth!”  (Read 180384 times)

The Legendary Shark

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Re: “Truth? You can't handle the truth!”
« Reply #2625 on: 24 October, 2018, 07:37:50 pm »

JBC, iIrc, that 97% figure was from an alarmist Obama speech and based on a study of published scientific papers of which about three quarters expressed no opinion but of the remaining quarter that did express an opinion, 97% agreed with acc. (Taking that from memory so it may be wrong.)

Leigh, all the plumbers might agree that the water is coming out of the taps - the obvious part - but they may not agree on why the water is coming out of the taps. One might blame me for not shutting them off, one might blame perished washers, one might blame a surge in water pressure, another a defective tap. I would, of course, look at the cause myself and go with the plumber most likely to be correct based on my own investigations, regardless of whether his was a majority, minority or middling view. In the meantime, I'd find the stopcock and fetch a mop...


Dandontdare

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Re: “Truth? You can't handle the truth!”
« Reply #2626 on: 24 October, 2018, 07:47:29 pm »
1. The "greenhouse effect" is simple physics that can be recreated easily in a lab - If you increase the amount of Co2, the temperature goes up.
2. We have been vastly  increasing the amount of Co2 in our atmosphere for the last couple of centuries
3. The temperature is going up

I get why the oil barons and governments have an interest in denying this, but I really cannot understand why otherwise intelligent people with no ulterior motives cannot see the simple cause-and-effect there.

The Legendary Shark

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Re: “Truth? You can't handle the truth!”
« Reply #2627 on: 24 October, 2018, 07:56:34 pm »
Is it just CO2, though? How about methane, steam, carbon monoxide, particulates, aluminium and barium from aircraft exhausts and who knows what else from heavy industry? Even if I concede that acc is certain, which I don't, why is it only CO2 that gets the blame when it's such a tiny atmospheric component and naturally absorbed and sequestered by oceans and plant life?


Jim_Campbell

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Re: “Truth? You can't handle the truth!”
« Reply #2628 on: 24 October, 2018, 08:19:12 pm »
Is it just CO2, though?

Yes. Yes, it fucking is. This has been explained to you over, and over, and over a-fucking-gain, every damn time you cycle round to this as your trolling subject du jour.
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The Legendary Shark

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Re: “Truth? You can't handle the truth!”
« Reply #2629 on: 24 October, 2018, 08:21:34 pm »

No need to get so angry, Jim.


Jim_Campbell

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Re: “Truth? You can't handle the truth!”
« Reply #2630 on: 24 October, 2018, 08:22:18 pm »

No need to get so angry, Jim.

Then stop wasting everyone's time.
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The Legendary Shark

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Re: “Truth? You can't handle the truth!”
« Reply #2631 on: 24 October, 2018, 08:32:24 pm »

Debate is a waste of time?

Everyone else is defending their position thoughtfully, respectfully and voluntarily. How is that a waste of time?


Tjm86

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Re: “Truth? You can't handle the truth!”
« Reply #2632 on: 24 October, 2018, 08:41:03 pm »
really cannot understand why otherwise intelligent people with no ulterior motives cannot see the simple cause-and-effect there.

... because we live in an age where 'truth' is such a variable quantity.  Once upon a time it was editorial bias.  Now it is 'fake news'.  Scientific theories are touted as fact rather than as hypotheses that are largely substantiated by evidence.  The nuances of scientific debate do not lend themselves easily to the subtle discourse that science requires.  Largely since that requires more time to digest and reflect than many are willing to employ.

Not everything is a conspiracy but right now we live in an age seriously lacking in discernment.  Employing anything approaching the standard tin foil hat tropes is likely to result in rejection immediately.  Does not matter if the argument makes sense.

Only thing I would say Sharky is that whilst debate is not a waste of time, how it is achieved is important.  If it is the case that my response elicits an extreme and emotional response then I would benefit from considering how to frame my point in a way that is likely to make others engage with my ideas rather than what they perceive as my priorities / ideology.  I don't see that as debate, rather as debasement.

Mind you, I'm a very drunk optimist.

Jim_Campbell

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Re: “Truth? You can't handle the truth!”
« Reply #2633 on: 24 October, 2018, 08:41:08 pm »

Debate is a waste of time?

Everyone else is defending their position thoughtfully, respectfully and voluntarily. How is that a waste of time?

Because you've done this exact same schtick before, on this exact same argument. It's trolling. You're plainly seeing who you can aggravate and I'm sorry I indulged you. I won't make the same mistake again.
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Professor Bear

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Re: “Truth? You can't handle the truth!”
« Reply #2634 on: 24 October, 2018, 08:46:33 pm »
Debate is a waste of time?

Did the Holocaust really happen?  Do black people really need the same rights as the rest of us?

I'm just asking questions.  Just trying to start the debate.

Leigh S

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Re: “Truth? You can't handle the truth!”
« Reply #2635 on: 24 October, 2018, 09:19:59 pm »
So you would shut off the water supply? and try to fix the damage? 

But when it comes to global warming, you would assume we have no agency and do nothing to inconvenience yourself?  Even though action would benefit us from cleaner air nd better technology, even if we had over estimated our impact?  You would rather side with the same vested interests that have brought Government into disrepute?  Sharky your ways are very strange and seemingly contrary for contrary's sake



JBC, iIrc, that 97% figure was from an alarmist Obama speech and based on a study of published scientific papers of which about three quarters expressed no opinion but of the remaining quarter that did express an opinion, 97% agreed with acc. (Taking that from memory so it may be wrong.)

Leigh, all the plumbers might agree that the water is coming out of the taps - the obvious part - but they may not agree on why the water is coming out of the taps. One might blame me for not shutting them off, one might blame perished washers, one might blame a surge in water pressure, another a defective tap. I would, of course, look at the cause myself and go with the plumber most likely to be correct based on my own investigations, regardless of whether his was a majority, minority or middling view. In the meantime, I'd find the stopcock and fetch a mop...

The Legendary Shark

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Re: “Truth? You can't handle the truth!”
« Reply #2636 on: 24 October, 2018, 09:58:57 pm »

Climate change is rather more complex than a busted tap. I don't advocate sitting back and doing nothing. There are lots of things we can and should be doing beyond what governments suggest, including but not limited to considering all the evidence and not just data that supports a single or limited course of action and implementing other changes, some of which I outlined earlier.

For hawks who enjoy sending armies off to secure oil supplies, despite simultaneously condemning fossil fuels, how about sending armies off to defend the rain forests from logging companies, thereby helping save the planet's lungs, for example?

For doves, how about diverting some of the resources away from armed conflict towards research into some of Tesla's ideas, for example?

There are countless things that can be done to improve our environment - but waiting for governments and corporations to save us using plans based on what I think is most likely faulty and incomplete data is far from the best way to go.

I believe that criticising received wisdom on this and other topics is a valid contribution to the problems we all face. If it turns out that I am wrong, which I admit is a possibility, then my contribution has been deepening the understanding and resolve of my fellow debaters and maybe even opening up new avenues of possibility. If it turns out that I am right, and despite what some people think I wouldn't be writing these things if I knew them to be false, then my contribution has been to help divert us away from the wrong path and revealing new avenues of possibility.

And yes - I guess I am rather strange!


JayzusB.Christ

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Re: “Truth? You can't handle the truth!”
« Reply #2637 on: 24 October, 2018, 09:59:14 pm »

Taking that from memory so it may be wrong

It is, and you know it. Sorry, this non-debate is over for me; see y'all on another thread
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Theblazeuk

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Re: “Truth? You can't handle the truth!”
« Reply #2638 on: 25 October, 2018, 11:25:46 am »
Sometimes the received wisdom is your own.

The Legendary Shark

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Re: “Truth? You can't handle the truth!”
« Reply #2639 on: 25 October, 2018, 12:12:24 pm »

Agreed.