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Author Topic: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)  (Read 20136 times)

Link Prime

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Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
« Reply #30 on: 07 May, 2013, 08:39:26 PM »
I've heard it said that Phase 4 seems tacked-on and unnecessary - I didn't agree then and I agree even less now; it's what binds the whole story together by explaining the true identity of the Lloigor, their origin and the reasons for their quest for ascension.

Phase IV is awesome, and completes the story beautifully. I know Morrison wasn't keen to write it - he was more interested in his American work - but the arm-twisting done to get it on the page does not come through at all.

Didn't know Morrison wasn't keen to write it...interesting.
Like you guys, I loved it by the way.

Jimmy Baker's Assistant

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Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
« Reply #31 on: 07 May, 2013, 08:48:33 PM »
Didn't know Morrison wasn't keen to write it...interesting.

I got that from Thrill Power Overload (or to be more accurate, I got that from Wikipedia who said they got it from Thrill Power Overload).

Buttonman

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Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
« Reply #32 on: 24 May, 2013, 11:58:18 PM »
Chimera, in pyramid form, is there in the room, in plain view. Seriously.  Have a look at it.


He's not wrong you know...



It is great Zenith - see something new every time. Strange how little Zenith actually contibutes though - guess they couldn't sell the Heseltine like St.John as the hero.

Sideshow Bob

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Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
« Reply #33 on: 26 May, 2013, 07:07:24 PM »
Couldn't find this thread earlier so posted a new thread in the Classifieds section today....
Link to ebay below.....

Just to let anyone who is interested know that there are several Zenith comics and two Zenith Phase 1 graphic Novels for sale on eBay...
Book 1 : For sale starting at £1.04
Book 1 : ( Brand New) Starting at £7...

There is also a Book 2, although this starts at £30...

Ps :  These are not mine, just saw them when perusing eBay and thought some of you guys might be interested...
Cheers..

www.ebay.co.uk/itm/121115863774
www.ebay.co.uk/itm/330929233896
" This is absolutely NO PLACE for a lover of Food, Fine Wine and the Librettos of RODGERS and HAMMERSTEIN "......Devlin Waugh.

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JayzusB.Christ

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Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
« Reply #34 on: 31 May, 2013, 01:41:11 PM »
Quote
Strange how little Zenith actually contibutes though - guess they couldn't sell the Heseltine like St.John as the hero.

Yeah, that's what I loved about Zenith as a character.  He never undergoes any kind of cliched Damascene epiphany, he just gets smugger, nastier and lazier as the serious goes on - eventually he isn't even a reluctant hero; he's just not a hero at all.
 St John was always a brilliant character too - maybe it stretches credibility a little bit to see a (presumably) anarchist hippy become one of Thatcher's lackeys in less than 20 years, but as the MP he becomes he's totally convincing.
I also consider the dialogue of the story to be the most convincing that 2000ad has ever published.  That one frame where the kid pitifully cries that the Lloigor killed his mum is absolutely heartbreaking, even without any prior knowledge of the character speaking.  Better than any 'They killed my parents.  Now they gotta pay' nonsense any day.
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Frank

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Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
« Reply #35 on: 31 May, 2013, 02:00:23 PM »
St John was always a brilliant character too - maybe it stretches credibility a little bit to see a (presumably) anarchist hippy become one of Thatcher's lackeys in less than 20 years, but as the MP he becomes he's totally convincing.

It's a well-trodden path.





JayzusB.Christ

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Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
« Reply #36 on: 31 May, 2013, 07:20:23 PM »
Fair point.  Who's the middle chap, though? I have a feeling I'll be appalled at the answer.
“Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest”

Frank

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Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
« Reply #37 on: 31 May, 2013, 08:17:48 PM »
Fair point.  Who's the middle chap, though? I have a feeling I'll be appalled at the answer.

That's understandable; he wasn't your responsibility and I chose the most Syd Barret-y image I could find:



No wonder Thatcher described Blair as her greatest achievement. When I found out about Anthony's past as a wannabe psych-rocker I became even more impressed with Morrison's abilities as a seer, and that bit where St John's asked to use his powers to get rid of a troublesome political opponent with a heart condition is interesting in light of the way Blair came to lead his party.

All the free-spirited Love Children of the sixties and seventies who didn't choke on their own puke had become money-grubbing corporate rockers by the time I was old enough to realise who they were and where they came from. If you think about it, there's a direct route from the Me Generation's monomaniac pursuit of personal fulfilment to the individualism and self-interest of Reaganomics/Thatcherism.


JayzusB.Christ

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Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
« Reply #38 on: 31 May, 2013, 09:49:09 PM »
My word.  As I said, I expected to be appalled, but this was off the scale.  Also, if poor old Syd hadn't lost his way in life, he probably would have ended up privatising things willy-nilly and dying in a closet with an orange in his mouth.
« Last Edit: 31 May, 2013, 09:52:14 PM by JayzusB.Christ »
“Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest”

JayzusB.Christ

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Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
« Reply #39 on: 03 June, 2013, 07:45:02 PM »
Quote
Strange how little Zenith actually contibutes though - guess they couldn't sell the Heseltine like St.John as the hero.

I'm going to quote you again here, because I've been thinking about this way too much.  Having given a bit more consideration to the whole thing, I've reached the conclusion that Zenith is pretty much the most important character in the story.  Not because he has any idea as to how to win the day or gives a shite anyway, but because he's pretty much the cause of the whole Lloigor clusterfuck in the first place.

Why? Firstly, because he's the first pure-bred superhuman in history.  He's what the Lloigor have been waiting for in order to take over the universe.  Secondly, because he shags clones of his mother and Ruby and conceives the second pure-bred superhuman.

Zenith, although like all superhumans a larval dark god, may not become a Lloigor, but his son incubates in the black sun to become the most prominent Lloigor of all, Iok Sotot.  It's Iok Sotot who travels back to kickstart the whole Nazi superhuman programme, thus giving rise to superhumans /larval Lloigor, which give birth to Zenith, who gives birth to Iok Sotot, who travels back to Nazi times, and so on in-extra-temporal-finitum.

And all because of Zenith, the irresponsible little motherf-cker.  Almost quite literally, to quote Viz.
“Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest”

Buttonman

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Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
« Reply #40 on: 03 June, 2013, 09:16:24 PM »
Yeah I agree he's the pivot on which the whole thing turns but for the most part he's a bystander who, like you say, stays true to form with the shagging and bumbling throughout.

I missed the bit about Zenith's kid travelling back to be Iok Sokot is that not like the old paradox about going back in time and killing your grandfather?

Ultimately it would prabably be explained in Phase 10 where all the readers are a fly in amber on St John's desk who watch helplessly as cosmic gods eat their £100 bound editions.

Matt Timson

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Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
« Reply #41 on: 03 June, 2013, 10:11:51 PM »
I have to admit the caption "I am Peyne, or at least part of me is" does lend credence to your interpretation.

My take on it though is that the panel with the words "and I finally see what's it's holding" is a POV shot from St John's own eyes, looking at his own hands holding Chimera.



Hmmm... Except for the fact that it's obviously not a POV shot from St. John's own eyes. Sorry.

I must admit, I've never once even entertained the idea that it might be St. John who's narrating at the end and having just read it again (because you never know), I still don't.

I always assumed that Peyne became a part of Chimera (he mentions being part of something else), rather than just fading away to nothing- but it could just as easily be Peyne's 'spirit' (or whatever it is that Grant thinks happens to the mind after death of the body) narrating the story.

People tie themselves in all sorts of knots over what happens at the end of Phase IV, but it always seemed pretty straightforward to me: Peter St. John asks Chimera for help with Cloud 9/The Horus Group and Chimera obliges by absorbing them (along with Peyne, and Peyne's super-humans). St. John's primary abilities are telepathy and mind control, which is why the others aren't aware of what's happened until it's too late.

Still my favourite 2000ad story, bar none.
Pffft...

Matt Timson

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Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
« Reply #42 on: 03 June, 2013, 10:13:12 PM »
I might even spend 100 quid on it.
Pffft...

Jimmy Baker's Assistant

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Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
« Reply #43 on: 03 June, 2013, 10:31:31 PM »

Hmmm... Except for the fact that it's obviously not a POV shot from St. John's own eyes. Sorry.

I must admit, I've never once even entertained the idea that it might be St. John who's narrating at the end and having just read it again (because you never know), I still don't.

I always assumed that Peyne became a part of Chimera (he mentions being part of something else), rather than just fading away to nothing- but it could just as easily be Peyne's 'spirit' (or whatever it is that Grant thinks happens to the mind after death of the body) narrating the story.

Why is it obviously not a POV shot?

I don't like either of your alternative explanations, but I guess the former does sort of fit, whereas the latter would just be a bizarre, unnecessary Sunset Blvd tribute.

Jimmy Baker's Assistant

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Re: Zenith - a few questions (with spoilers)
« Reply #44 on: 03 June, 2013, 10:34:26 PM »
I missed the bit about Zenith's kid travelling back to be Iok Sokot is that not like the old paradox about going back in time and killing your grandfather?

It's also suggested that the Lloigor caused themselves to be created by Peyne. Everyone loves a paradox.