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Author Topic: Dredd at Number 2?  (Read 1541 times)

positronic

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Re: Dredd at Number 2?
« Reply #30 on: 18 April, 2017, 09:23:19 am »
But how much more different than Fargo is Dredd? He looks like him and his doubts seems to stem from the fact that Fargo didn't want the totalitarian rule to last forever. A clone is not necessarily an exact copy, but why should I care about the character when you can just produce a new person from the predecessor's germ plasm and get the same appearance and many of that charcter's traits? The fact that Dredd is aging along with the comic is a bit original, but it becomes more and more silly as the time goes by. He is over 70 years old but can more or less function like an athlete.

It's a science-fictional future. Given the level of biomedical tech established even very early in the series, which is presumably advancing along in real time just as comic book publishing is in our world, what's 70? It's nothing. People in the real world living at age 70 today are healthier, more active, and younger-looking then their parent's generation was at the same age. There's not much of a stretch of imagination to think that 120 years in the future, people might live even longer, and look younger.

Afterwards when I was thinking about what I'd written in that earlier post, it occurred to me that the real source of your anxiety seems to be some hand-wringing over what you imagine as a very real, potentially imminent, 'death of Dredd' story. Why would the folks at Rebellion decide to kill off 2000 AD's most popular character? The only character to appear in 99.9% of all issues published to date (including annuals and specials), and the only 2000 AD character to also star in his own self-titled comic? It's like killing the goose that lays the golden eggs.

Yes, we've seen that sort of temporary sales-goosing technique used by Marvel and DC for their top characters, and sometimes it kicked off an extended arc of related stories stretching on a year or two, before the 'death of' character got resurrected. I guess the existence of clones with Fargo's DNA bugs you since it makes it easy to at least find a convincing fake to pass in the story for Judge Dredd. 2000 AD's readers don't seem like they might go along with some obvious, 'gimmick' attempt at temporarily boosting sales, but as long as you could invoke some interest in a well-written story, I guess they might be patient enough to follow it through its various twists and turns. I don't think any 2000 AD reader's going to be fooled into thinking it's anything like a permanent death.

I'm not sure why they'd want to do that again, since they've already explored it through the Judge Kraken story.

positronic

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Re: Dredd at Number 2?
« Reply #31 on: 18 April, 2017, 09:36:47 am »
Also let's not forget that Dredd himself is a product of that same future biomedical tech. Longevity may have been designed into him when he was created. Why wouldn't they?

Magnetica

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Re: Dredd at Number 2?
« Reply #32 on: 18 April, 2017, 10:21:38 am »
There has been a lot of discussion on this forum about Dredd's age,  and it should be noted that he has recently had a re-juve in the Megazine, and the month before that had a medical with the med judge saying he was in great condition and good for many years yet.

Also,I am pretty sure John Wagner said on a recent panel that he has no plans to kill off Dredd, especially after the hoops they had to jump through to bring Alpha back.

Given all that, I have stopped worrying about his age and just get on with reading the strip.

Sandman1

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Re: Dredd at Number 2?
« Reply #33 on: 18 April, 2017, 05:17:35 pm »
Regarding Dredd's age, wouldn't it be better if they just skipped the ongoing timeline altogether?

Afterwards when I was thinking about what I'd written in that earlier post, it occurred to me that the real source of your anxiety seems to be some hand-wringing over what you imagine as a very real, potentially imminent, 'death of Dredd' story. Why would the folks at Rebellion decide to kill off 2000 AD's most popular character? The only character to appear in 99.9% of all issues published to date (including annuals and specials), and the only 2000 AD character to also star in his own self-titled comic? It's like killing the goose that lays the golden eggs.

I contemplate over two narrative arcs, but none of them involves Dredd's death. I'm rather looking for something that crawls under his skin, like the story A Letter to Judge Dredd. I want to shake his adamant foundation.

positronic

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Re: Dredd at Number 2?
« Reply #34 on: 19 April, 2017, 09:26:00 am »
Regarding Dredd's age, wouldn't it be better if they just skipped the ongoing timeline altogether?

Afterwards when I was thinking about what I'd written in that earlier post, it occurred to me that the real source of your anxiety seems to be some hand-wringing over what you imagine as a very real, potentially imminent, 'death of Dredd' story. Why would the folks at Rebellion decide to kill off 2000 AD's most popular character? The only character to appear in 99.9% of all issues published to date (including annuals and specials), and the only 2000 AD character to also star in his own self-titled comic? It's like killing the goose that lays the golden eggs.

I contemplate over two narrative arcs, but none of them involves Dredd's death. I'm rather looking for something that crawls under his skin, like the story A Letter to Judge Dredd. I want to shake his adamant foundation.

Okay, then apparently I misapprehended. You actually don't like Dredd, and would prefer that they kill him off (as long as he isn't replaced by a clone). I mean, they've done the adamant foundation-shaking thing, had him resign, take the long walk, replaced by Kraken posing as him. Not sure what you want, another re-tread of that? You can't do a story like that too much.

The thing is there's always been those two sides of Dredd. He's the protagonist/hero of the story, but sometimes he's actually a figure of mockery (for the writers), because they are recognizing that the 'hero' in this story is actually a jackbooted fascist oppressor. Oh, he can be written both ways, but at the end of the day very few people are going to defend the judge system as a sane form of government. Yet, that's the whole thrust of this particular strip. Take that away and make Dredd more of a straightforward beloved good-guy, and it's all over. The whole setup of the system is that it has to be overseen by doubt-free unshakable-in-their-beliefs Judges. If they're NOT, the entire system collapses like a deck of cards.
« Last Edit: 19 April, 2017, 09:31:34 am by positronic »

positronic

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Re: Dredd at Number 2?
« Reply #35 on: 19 April, 2017, 09:31:56 am »
Regarding Dredd's age, wouldn't it be better if they just skipped the ongoing timeline altogether?

Afterwards when I was thinking about what I'd written in that earlier post, it occurred to me that the real source of your anxiety seems to be some hand-wringing over what you imagine as a very real, potentially imminent, 'death of Dredd' story. Why would the folks at Rebellion decide to kill off 2000 AD's most popular character? The only character to appear in 99.9% of all issues published to date (including annuals and specials), and the only 2000 AD character to also star in his own self-titled comic? It's like killing the goose that lays the golden eggs.

I contemplate over two narrative arcs, but none of them involves Dredd's death. I'm rather looking for something that crawls under his skin, like the story A Letter to Judge Dredd. I want to shake his adamant foundation.

Okay, then apparently I misapprehended. You actually don't like Dredd, and would prefer that they kill him off (as long as he isn't replaced by a clone). I mean, they've done the adamant foundation-shaking thing, had him resign, take the long walk, replaced by Kraken posing as him. Not sure what you want, another re-tread of that? You can't do a story like that too much.

The thing is there's always been those two sides of Dredd. He's the protagonist/hero of the story, but sometimes he's actually a figure of mockery (for the writers), because they are recognizing that the 'hero' in this story is actually a jackbooted fascist oppressor. Oh, he can be written both ways, but at the end of the day very few people are going to defend the judge system as a sane form of government. Yet, that's the whole thrust of this particular strip. Take that away and make Dredd more of a straightforward beloved good-guy, and it's all over. The whole setup of the system is that it has to be overseen by doubt-free unshakable-in-their-beliefs Judges. If they're NOT, the entire system collapses like a house of cards.

Sandman1

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Re: Dredd at Number 2?
« Reply #36 on: 19 April, 2017, 05:23:46 pm »
Okay, then apparently I misapprehended. You actually don't like Dredd, and would prefer that they kill him off (as long as he isn't replaced by a clone).

I don't dislike Dredd, I just think that there are some chinks in the armor. 

I mean, they've done the adamant foundation-shaking thing, had him resign, take the long walk, replaced by Kraken posing as him. Not sure what you want, another re-tread of that? You can't do a story like that too much.

It's more like a story about revelations and the grayscale between cause and effect. I skilled writer can bring out some new nuances in already explored themes.

PsychoGoatee

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Re: Dredd at Number 2?
« Reply #37 on: 20 April, 2017, 12:35:37 am »
But how much more different than Fargo is Dredd? He looks like him and his doubts seems to stem from the fact that Fargo didn't want the totalitarian rule to last forever.

After sowing his wild oats Dredd doesn't put a bullet in his head or run a protection racket like Rico.

When did Dredd sow his wild oats? As in coitus?

positronic

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Re: Dredd at Number 2?
« Reply #38 on: 20 April, 2017, 12:55:30 am »
Okay, then apparently I misapprehended. You actually don't like Dredd, and would prefer that they kill him off (as long as he isn't replaced by a clone).

I don't dislike Dredd, I just think that there are some chinks in the armor. 

I mean, they've done the adamant foundation-shaking thing, had him resign, take the long walk, replaced by Kraken posing as him. Not sure what you want, another re-tread of that? You can't do a story like that too much.

It's more like a story about revelations and the grayscale between cause and effect. I skilled writer can bring out some new nuances in already explored themes.

It's been shown. How often can you dwell on stories about the doubts and chinks? If you do, then you render him unfit to do the job. That's the point I was making. The Judges are meant by design to be inflexible and hidebound by the Law. It's the whole point of everything, without which the entire system ceases to function.

PsychoGoatee

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Re: Dredd at Number 2?
« Reply #39 on: 20 April, 2017, 02:26:55 am »
Okay, then apparently I misapprehended. You actually don't like Dredd, and would prefer that they kill him off (as long as he isn't replaced by a clone).

I don't dislike Dredd, I just think that there are some chinks in the armor. 

I mean, they've done the adamant foundation-shaking thing, had him resign, take the long walk, replaced by Kraken posing as him. Not sure what you want, another re-tread of that? You can't do a story like that too much.

It's more like a story about revelations and the grayscale between cause and effect. I skilled writer can bring out some new nuances in already explored themes.

It's been shown. How often can you dwell on stories about the doubts and chinks? If you do, then you render him unfit to do the job. That's the point I was making. The Judges are meant by design to be inflexible and hidebound by the Law. It's the whole point of everything, without which the entire system ceases to function.

Dredd doesn't always agree with the law, or those in power, I don't see the problem in that continuing to come up. Even if the system did cease to function, you could continue telling that story.

Sandman1

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Re: Dredd at Number 2?
« Reply #40 on: 20 April, 2017, 11:14:52 am »
It's been shown. How often can you dwell on stories about the doubts and chinks? If you do, then you render him unfit to do the job. That's the point I was making. The Judges are meant by design to be inflexible and hidebound by the Law. It's the whole point of everything, without which the entire system ceases to function.

The story is not about the emphasis on his characteristics, but it is about misjudgments and the things I mentioned earlier.   

positronic

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Re: Dredd at Number 2?
« Reply #41 on: 20 April, 2017, 11:49:53 am »
It's been shown. How often can you dwell on stories about the doubts and chinks? If you do, then you render him unfit to do the job. That's the point I was making. The Judges are meant by design to be inflexible and hidebound by the Law. It's the whole point of everything, without which the entire system ceases to function.

The story is not about the emphasis on his characteristics, but it is about misjudgments and the things I mentioned earlier.

He's made attempts to change things from within to a certain degree, not always successfully. At other times he plays the role of someone who prevents someone else from changing the system from within. If his doubts come to the forefront to the extent of where he questions whether the judge system is the form of government best for the citizens of Mega City One, then he can't function as a Judge anymore. It occurs to me that John Wagner and Alan Grant had some fundamental disagreement over exactly the topic you're raising regarding Dredd, which led to dissolving their long co-writer partnership.

positronic

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Re: Dredd at Number 2?
« Reply #42 on: 20 April, 2017, 12:07:20 pm »
Dredd doesn't always agree with the law, or those in power, I don't see the problem in that continuing to come up. Even if the system did cease to function, you could continue telling that story.

He can't claim "I am the Law" unless he is acting not like an individual, but as a perfect representative of the system whose only function is in enforcing that system. Acting as a individual who debates the efficacy of the law makes him less effective as a Judge. But if he goes that route and the system ceases to function because it doesn't have perfect enforcers, it fundamentally changes the nature of the strip in a way so that there would probably be no returning to the status quo. It might be more realistic, but it doesn't serve the purposes of ongoing series fiction.

PsychoGoatee

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Re: Dredd at Number 2?
« Reply #43 on: 20 April, 2017, 05:18:33 pm »
Dredd doesn't always agree with the law, or those in power, I don't see the problem in that continuing to come up. Even if the system did cease to function, you could continue telling that story.

He can't claim "I am the Law" unless he is acting not like an individual,

The beauty of it is, he can. He says he's the law, but he's not actually a robot who only follows the law. It may be a bit of a contradiction, but that's who he is. He doesn't just follow orders, he was raised in that environment so the Book of Law is almost his bible, but he's shown over the years that he also listens to his gut. We know that he does act as an individual, that's why everybody in the city and all the Judges act like he's somebody different and notable. Often times over the years they don't seem to know what Dredd will do or where he'll fall on an issue, because he isn't just a walking talking law book. Even if he likes to think he is.

And the system the comic is based on has lasted decades with that character growth and depth, hasn't been a problem.

Sandman1

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Re: Dredd at Number 2?
« Reply #44 on: 20 April, 2017, 10:29:04 pm »
He's made attempts to change things from within to a certain degree, not always successfully. At other times he plays the role of someone who prevents someone else from changing the system from within. If his doubts come to the forefront to the extent of where he questions whether the judge system is the form of government best for the citizens of Mega City One, then he can't function as a Judge anymore. It occurs to me that John Wagner and Alan Grant had some fundamental disagreement over exactly the topic you're raising regarding Dredd, which led to dissolving their long co-writer partnership.

The story doesn't revolve around anyone's doubts about the system or Dredd's role in it, so calm your horses! If I summarize the whole thing, I would say it's about a master and his truculent pupil.