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Author Topic: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES  (Read 32649 times)

The Legendary Shark

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Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
« Reply #135 on: 18 October, 2017, 09:19:50 pm »
I think, Blackmocco, that idealism is what sets Star Trek apart - let other shows do the grit. For me, Enterprise is still the best Trek because of the lengths to which Captain Archer goes to prevent war, not only between humans and the Xindi (with the Enterprise getting chunks ripped out of her along the way) but between the Vulcans and the Andorians as well. I find that faith in humanity (for want of a better word), despite the seeming futility of such optimism, to be deeply moving and inspirational. This, to me, is at the core of what Trek is all about - to strive for peace and a better future despite the cost, despite the pain, despite the odds because, in the end, peace is worth it. Discovery is the antithesis of Enterprise. Discovery just says, "fuck it - let's have a war." To me, that's just not Star Trek - it's a betrayal of everything Star Trek stands for. Give me a battered old NX-01 struggling to do the Right Thing over a slick, saucer-spinning NCC 1031 glibly blowing Klingons to atoms any day of the week, Sorry - there I go with the hyperbole again! :D

Goaty

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Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
« Reply #136 on: 18 October, 2017, 09:31:23 pm »
Lovely to see men in Starfleet pyjamas!

TordelBack

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Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
« Reply #137 on: 18 October, 2017, 09:38:41 pm »
The awesome PJs were the most striking thing about that scene.

Sharky, not questioning your right to dislike whatever the hell you want in any way whatsoever, and I do understand and sympathise with your disappointment, but a past war with the Klingons (and indeed Romulans) informs both TOS and TNG.  Many situations in both those series depend on it, not least the fervour with which characters try to avoid a repeat. 

Exploring how the Federation reacted to, conducted themselves in and survived that war seems like a valid thing to do.
« Last Edit: 18 October, 2017, 09:44:23 pm by TordelBack »

The Legendary Shark

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Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
« Reply #138 on: 18 October, 2017, 09:48:54 pm »
I understand that, Tordels, I really do and I also concede that as a valid part of Trek history it's fair game for stories. There's just so much real war and misery in the world at the moment that I just don't want any more. It would have been far more interesting (to me) if this series had been set at the end of the Klingon war - with a battle-weary, damaged crew taking part in a final few battles and then getting back to the business of exploration and progress, putting Starfleet, the Federation and themselves back together.


von Boom

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Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
« Reply #139 on: 18 October, 2017, 09:52:53 pm »
I understand that, Tordels, I really do and I also concede that as a valid part of Trek history it's fair game for stories. There's just so much real war and misery in the world at the moment that I just don't want any more. It would have been far more interesting (to me) if this series had been set at the end of the Klingon war - with a battle-weary, damaged crew taking part in a final few battles and then getting back to the business of exploration and progress, putting Starfleet, the Federation and themselves back together.


TordelBack

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Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
« Reply #140 on: 18 October, 2017, 10:00:05 pm »
FWIW Sharky, I would prefer to watch that series too.  But I doubt it would get made in 2017, when there's already hundreds of hours of more or less that available on Netflix for us old farts to watch for the umpteenth time, and there's zombie dragons fighting incestuous royals and drugged-up unshaven superheroes bonking on the other channel.

This is what 2017 Trek looks like, and I'll extract what optimism is there, and take what I can get.

But I do get a bit miffed at being told off (not here) for objecting to unnecessary 'fucking's on a show I watch with 8 year old Trekkie daughter.
« Last Edit: 18 October, 2017, 10:04:50 pm by TordelBack »

The Legendary Shark

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Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
« Reply #141 on: 18 October, 2017, 10:04:38 pm »
Heh - I'm going to take that as a small win and shut up now.

I'm really sorry to be so negative, everyone.

LLaP.


blackmocco

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Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
« Reply #142 on: 18 October, 2017, 10:13:53 pm »
@blackmocco
Rewind that for me-you couldnt relate to people wanting to get back home?
Also,Im not buying the theory it should be realistic because that would be more realistic.

Of course I could relate to that. But I couldn't ever relate to the characters in that situation as they were presented. It wasn't satisfying as drama. Two fiercely rival factions stranded together in the middle of nowhere and by the end of the first ninety minutes, everyone's one big happy co-operating crew. Seemingly insurmountable problems are solved too easily. I get the idea that these are more evolved humans (supposedly), but when you remove the flaws and the canvas to create real character drama, your storytelling becomes boring and stale. Ron Moore knew this. He wanted to fuck Voyager up (and he should have been let do that) but instead went off and did it with BSG, the counterpoint to what Trek was doing at the time. Darker? Certainly, but a far more effective launchpoint to take on subject matter.
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blackmocco

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Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
« Reply #143 on: 18 October, 2017, 10:23:10 pm »
I find that faith in humanity (for want of a better word), despite the seeming futility of such optimism, to be deeply moving and inspirational. This, to me, is at the core of what Trek is all about - to strive for peace and a better future despite the cost, despite the pain, despite the odds because, in the end, peace is worth it. Discovery is the antithesis of Enterprise. Discovery just says, "fuck it - let's have a war." To me, that's just not Star Trek - it's a betrayal of everything Star Trek stands for. Give me a battered old NX-01 struggling to do the Right Thing over a slick, saucer-spinning NCC 1031 glibly blowing Klingons to atoms any day of the week, Sorry - there I go with the hyperbole again! :D

Ehh, I think you're missing out. This show is far more nuanced. They've set the show during a war to come full circle to all the ideals you're talking about. It can't arrive fully formed. Don't you want to see how humanity got to that point? TOS always made a huge deal about humanity striving to be better than they can be. That's where later Trek incarnations went wrong (we'll have to agree to disagree about Enterprise) for me. If we're not going to see that growth towards something better, it's just boring being handed all these perfect, flawless characters from a culture that has already reached its pinnacle. Who really believes we're going to end up living like that? There's nothing to latch on to anymore. We've seen where this universe is going to go, but I'm more than happy to see how they get there. It's the journey, not the destination I'm interested in...
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Professor Bear

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Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
« Reply #144 on: 18 October, 2017, 10:31:06 pm »
Moore's friendship with Voyager producer Brannon Braga broke down because of that argument over Voyager's direction - and then Star Trek went and did all the things Moore insisted that Voyager should have done in Enterprise's third season anyway, and did so with Brannon Braga's name still on it.  Make of that what you will.

Further to the whole "definately a spy" discussion, NEERRRRRDS.

If we're not going to see that growth towards something better, it's just boring being handed all these perfect, flawless characters from a culture that has already reached its pinnacle.

This is the same reasoning applied by Zack Snyder to why Superman had to murder Zod at the end of Man Of Steel: until he actually killed someone, how would he know he didn't like it?  Sort of like not knowing for sure if you're straight until you've kissed another man.
« Last Edit: 18 October, 2017, 10:36:39 pm by Professor Bear »

blackmocco

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Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
« Reply #145 on: 18 October, 2017, 10:39:12 pm »

Further to the whole "definately a spy" discussion, NEERRRRRDS.

If we're not going to see that growth towards something better, it's just boring being handed all these perfect, flawless characters from a culture that has already reached its pinnacle.

This is the same reasoning applied by Zack Snyder to why Superman had to murder Zod at the end of Man Of Steel: until he actually killed someone, how would he know he didn't like it?  Sort of like not knowing for sure if you're straight until you've kissed another man.

I feel dirty having the Trekyard lads and Zack Snyder's Superman all in the same post.
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JOE SOAP

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Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
« Reply #146 on: 18 October, 2017, 10:43:51 pm »
I'll take the voyages of a Section 31/Black-Ops style Federation ship over another Bad Robot film. The potential dynamic between this crew is far more interesting – and we've all ready had a lovely story about the capture and liberation of a space-bear who's happiest when free to forage his own space-fungus.

Professor Bear

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Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
« Reply #147 on: 18 October, 2017, 10:55:03 pm »
I don't think the concern is that a different story is being told in the Trek universe - Section 31 and Mirror Universe tales are staples - so much as that this might be the template for all of Trek going forward.

Smith

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Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
« Reply #148 on: 19 October, 2017, 05:13:17 am »
@blackmocco
Yes,Voyager had flaws.We went thru that a dozen times.
But I dont think the reasoning of "our world is shit" or "because GoT or Man of Steel" is any sort of justification here.

JamesC

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Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
« Reply #149 on: 19 October, 2017, 06:33:40 am »
I don't think you have to start comparisons with MoS (and I don't think this is the same as Snyder's justification of Superman's actions. That may have been valid if this was Kirk, Spock or even Pike we were talking about. Lorca's a new character captaining a secret ship we've never seen before) to understand that this series is set at a point in time before Starfleet as we know it is fully evolved.
This is the middle of a war and the writers have gone out of their way to explain that this crew is not representative of Starfleet in general.
You may not want to see the adventures of a morally corrupt captain, fighting a war with dubious methods, produced under the Star Trek brand but to argue that the story is somehow wrong or invalid seems incredibly narrow minded.