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Author Topic: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES  (Read 38298 times)

blackmocco

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Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
« Reply #165 on: 20 October, 2017, 08:48:42 pm »
Yeah, the F-bomb getting the headlines for that episode says something about our sensibilities, doesn't it? Violence and sex = okay. A playful F-bomb = utterly unacceptable.

Hmmm. While I would prefer the violence and gore was toned down to family-viewing levels, Kilngons and their violent proclivities are fantasy, they don't exist and none of it actually happened, and even so their actions are clearly painted as Bad Things done by Bad Guys.  Swearing OTOH is a real thing that my kids are likely to do, that takes place between two human characters, including our cute bumbling Starfleet cadet character, and it's framed here as funny. 

You can surely see the difference, from a parental PoV. 

I love creative swearing, Deadwood is probably my favourite non-SF TV show of all time, but Star Trek is a show we have always watched as a family, just as it was tea-time viewing for me as a kid.  It definitely wouldn't have been if Bones' catchphrase had been "Fuck it Jim, I'm a Doctor, not a c*nt".  I'm sure there were more examples, but in the entire 50 years of the franchise I can recall one 'bastard' and one 'shit', and I didn't care for the latter at all.  Swearing adds realism to characters' speech patterns, but there's no need for it, and precious little precedent, in a far-future setting like Trek.

I get why people are jarred by the word showing up on Star Trek. Honestly, I do. I was jarred, even if I loved how it was used, but I don't think a child hearing that word is worse than being shown graphic, painful violence. I'm a grown man but I grimaced more at Lorca's pilot getting pretty graphically kabob'd and the sound of the prisoner's skull being smashed than at a naive cadet losing her cool in excitement at a scientific breakthrough. (And yes, I have a kid, lest anyone thinks I've no point of reference but as she lives in a household with an Irish father, there are probably very few colorful metaphors she hasn't heard over the years...) It's just a word in the end, and attaching all this drama to it lends it more weight than it deserves. Obviously, I wouldn't want a young child to hear it, but as I've just said, I wouldn't want a young child seeing the examples of graphic violence on Discovery either.

Discovery's on premium pay service here in the US and the lead up made it pretty clear the show was going to be presented in a more adult fashion than before. I wonder if because it's airing on Netflix over there that news wasn't properly conveyed maybe...?
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Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
« Reply #166 on: 20 October, 2017, 08:49:06 pm »
To be honest, the swearing doesn't really bother me (not being a parent) so long as it's done properly. I wouldn't have minded if Captain Janeway, on spotting a fleet of Borg cubes suddenly dropping into normal space and hurtling straight for Voyager had said, "oh, for fuck's sake."
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blackmocco

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Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
« Reply #167 on: 20 October, 2017, 08:56:00 pm »
From CBR's interview with Discovery's showrunners:

Does the streaming service allow you to push the envelope of what we’ve known as Star Trek content?

"The streaming service has definitely allowed us to push boundaries. We can do nudity. We can do violence that we can’t do on broadcast. We can have language."

Do you?

"For us, it has to be really carefully considered. One of the most important things that Gretchen and I have been learning since we came on the show is, just how anecdotally people come to Trek by way of their mother, their father, their older brother or their older sister. How many families watch the show, took in the show, turn it off, had a debate. It really is a property that is passed down generation to generation.

So if you’re going to do something like language, or a little nudity, or a little extra violence — which that’s one of the sad things about where we are in terms of media: violence is accepted; sexuality, maybe not so much. We’re taking great pains to make sure that nothing feels gratuitous if we’re doing it. That if language is involved, it might be language that’s celebratory.

We have a moment where three of our scientists have just pulled off the most incredible thing ever. They are talking about concepts that are so above everybody else’s head, and one of them says, “This is so fucking cool.” And she’s a cadet, and she’s catches herself, and she looks at her boss, because oh my God, she just dropped an F-bomb. And her boss, played by Anthony Rapp, turns to her and says, “You’re right, cadet — this is fucking cool.” So in a moment like that, where I feel like we’re celebrating smarts and people who are at the top of their game. It’s rare when we’ll do it, but if we do it, we want to make it feel organic."
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Professor Bear

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Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
« Reply #168 on: 20 October, 2017, 10:56:21 pm »
Did I hear the False Equivalence Siren blaring?  I think I did!
Stabbing someone up and stomping people's heads in is presented as a Bad Thing.  Swearing like a trooper is presented as a good thing to the point the showrunners seem incredibly proud of it.  I don't give a toss because I'm an adult, but these things are not equivalent even if you don't have kids in the room.

TordelBack

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Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
« Reply #169 on: 20 October, 2017, 11:33:16 pm »
Succinctly put. 

Just to be clear, I'm not saying that the swearing is the only problem for sharing this show (Star Trek, fercrissakes) with younger viewers, but it is an unnecessary one.  I can accept that extra gore and violence might be required to compete in a post-GoT world, but I don't think anyone was crying out for swearing.  I also think moving Trek out of a family viewing remit is a huge mistake, and note that Netflix caters for kids too - dunno about the CBS pay channel.

All the moreso because I'm really enjoying it and its many other novel aspects, and the amount of kid-free time I get in front of the box is limited to say the least.

That said, I'm just back from watching a few Discovery clips on YouTube, and by the Prophets I've seldom seen such hatred for anything as I saw in those comments - and I'm a Phantom Menace apologist - so I've decided the show must be doing something right. 

blackmocco

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Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
« Reply #170 on: 21 October, 2017, 12:15:36 am »
You'd think the way everyone's weeping into their synthohol that Discovery's the only Trek show to ever break canon...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFq-37a7pk0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75jU8n3F9aI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnhIkX99OYw
"...and it was here in this blighted place, he learned to live again."

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Smith

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Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
« Reply #171 on: 21 October, 2017, 06:04:25 am »
I'm not gonna say "think of the kids",they hear worst thing in school.And,no swearing doesn't bother me so much,but the whole thing was just the show yelling :  Look at us,we can say fuck now!
Also,I'm not sure what GoT has to do with anything.

Tiplodocus

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Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
« Reply #172 on: 21 October, 2017, 11:13:30 am »
I hadn't really thought about the increased violence and swearing in a family context as we no longer have youngsters in the house. But even I was thinking the violence was a bit much for Trek.

I would love if where they are going with this is; in the face of War and the horrible things people are willing to do to each other, the federation and optimism and unity prevails. 

But somehow, I don't think this will be the case and Discovery will present our current universe in Star Trek clothes rather than a Star Trek universe.

So I'm still enjoying the show but can't definitively comment on whether it "IS" Trek until it all gets resolved.
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TordelBack

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Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
« Reply #173 on: 21 October, 2017, 12:12:04 pm »
Tips hits that nail squarely. Although I am far more optimistic than I was before it started.

And I completely agree with Blackmocco about Trek canon- no two given episodes are consistent, never mind between series,
« Last Edit: 21 October, 2017, 12:14:22 pm by TordelBack »

Professor Bear

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Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
« Reply #174 on: 21 October, 2017, 12:44:38 pm »
I don't think people are annoyed at the idea that Discovery messed with canon, they're annoyed that it's a prequel at all and didn't learn the very lessons linked to in those videos.  I mean, it's not like they didn't test the Trek prequel thing to destruction already - the last Trek show on tv was Enterprise, and the last episode of Enterprise - literally the last piece of Star Trek made for tv before Discovery - doubles down on wanking the canon and is widely despised as one of the worst series finales ever made.
There is an equal argument to be made that a history of bad continuity in Trek doesn't excuse Discovery's (perceived) bad decisions and failings, it just compounds them.

I can accept that extra gore and violence might be required to compete in a post-GoT world

I will assume you are not au fait with the current (mostly bad) Nicktoons iteration of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, which I only dipped my toe into recently to check out some crossovers with Usagi Yojimbo and the 1987 TMNT cartoons, but what I have seen has often been brutal to a standard that rivals some mature-rated shows.  So many stabbings, and not always presented in a context that establishes that jamming a bladed weapon into someone's neck is a Bad Thing, either.
And this is a cartoon show.  For kids.

Smith

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Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
« Reply #175 on: 21 October, 2017, 01:05:20 pm »
Because ofc,those are the only two TMNT shows.Why do people forget the 2003 series?Middle child syndrome?

Professor Bear

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Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
« Reply #176 on: 21 October, 2017, 01:49:30 pm »
Because 2003 TMNT fans are the absolute worst.

blackmocco

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Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
« Reply #177 on: 21 October, 2017, 01:58:02 pm »
I don't think people are annoyed at the idea that Discovery messed with canon, they're annoyed that it's a prequel at all and didn't learn the very lessons linked to in those videos.  I mean, it's not like they didn't test the Trek prequel thing to destruction already - the last Trek show on tv was Enterprise, and the last episode of Enterprise - literally the last piece of Star Trek made for tv before Discovery - doubles down on wanking the canon and is widely despised as one of the worst series finales ever made.
There is an equal argument to be made that a history of bad continuity in Trek doesn't excuse Discovery's (perceived) bad decisions and failings, it just compounds them.

People are pissed Discovery has messed with canon, man. Go to the first forum you find. Visually and historically. It’s the first thing angry Treknerds bring up in their crybaby rants. Their tears of rage bring me unmitigated joy.
« Last Edit: 21 October, 2017, 02:01:16 pm by blackmocco »
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Smith

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Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
« Reply #178 on: 21 October, 2017, 02:52:12 pm »
Because 2003 TMNT fans are the absolute worst.
You clearly have no idea what are you talking about.  ;)

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Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
« Reply #179 on: 21 October, 2017, 05:40:08 pm »
Their tears of rage bring me unmitigated joy.

This is why we can't have nice things :D

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