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Author Topic: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES  (Read 32339 times)

Professor Bear

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Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
« Reply #330 on: 09 February, 2018, 05:04:23 pm »
Worst episode yet for me.  The bits where they stand around shouting at the start just made me think of those behind the scenes clips of Ricky Gervaise playing an IRA bomber in Alias and he kept cracking up just because it was such a ridiculous, po-faced conceit.
The bit in the mess hall also seemed a bit... well, I mean, obviously it simply has to be a callback to the third or so episode where Burnham got the same reception, but things play out differently here, with the guy who murdered one of their most well-liked co-workers accepted pretty quickly compared to the treatment the woman who was proven right about making the first strike against the Klingons recieved.  I wonder what's different about this handsome white(ish) male that he's more readily accepted by the crew for his crimes than a black woman?  I guess we'll never figure out what the subtext is there.
Speaking of subtext: abusive spouses.  I can't tell if this subtext was intentional or not, because the message seems to be that Burnham is wrong to hold a history of abusive behavior towards her against the handsome white(ish) male, and all her supposed friends seem to be taking his side and proffering excuses.  Her feelings are not unreasonable here, I don't quite know what the script is supposed to be doing other than going through the motions of what Treks past have done.
« Last Edit: 09 February, 2018, 05:07:04 pm by Professor Bear »

TordelBack

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Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
« Reply #331 on: 09 February, 2018, 07:54:18 pm »
I wonder what's different about this handsome white(ish) male that he's more readily accepted by the crew for his crimes than a black woman? 

Because he was coerced,  by having his personality grafted onto/into the tormented body of a Klingon Pope?  As opposed to committing mutiny and getting her Captain and crewmates killed of her own free will?  Forgiving one seems easier for Starfleet than the other,  irrespective of skin colour/gender. Also, Tilly now has the precedent of Burnham before her.

I actually tend to agree with the Prof this week,  the emotional scenes seemed overblown and forced, as did the Enterprise excerpt from Memory Alpha that Cantwell googled. Still enjoying it overall, though.

Professor Bear

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Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
« Reply #332 on: 10 February, 2018, 12:02:35 pm »
As opposed to committing mutiny and getting her Captain and crewmates killed of her own free will?

That is literally my argument: that the whit(ish) male gets the benefit of the doubt Burnham doesn't and a rationalisation for his actions despite no-one actually knowing for sure if he can be trusted.  They are creating bioweapons and happily jump to experimenting on living beings on Discovery by the time Burnham arrives - one would assume that anyone serving on it is on nodding terms with the concept of the ends justifying the means, much as they are clearly shown to already be acquainted with a paranoiac level of security because of - presumably - the possibility of Klingon spies.

TordelBack

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Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
« Reply #333 on: 10 February, 2018, 01:26:32 pm »
Rather than race/gender, the difference I see is that a chunk of Discovery's crew are survivors of the Shenzou - notably Keyla and Saru - and in addition to losing their captain and ship supposedly due to her actions, when Michael shows up again they are unwillingly fighting a war they believe was started by their long-time former First Officer,  Starfleet's first convicted mutineer: there is a shared shame by association, and a personal betrayal of trust.

I do think this is a more unacceptable pill than Tyler's murder of Culber, when he is a less-familiar figure,  and essentially a victim of the forces they have been fighting.  Starfleet is well familiar with being suborned by aliens (it happened to Saru only the other week), less so with their superiors committing mutiny and starting wars.

blackmocco

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Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
« Reply #334 on: 10 February, 2018, 02:48:21 pm »
I also took it as the trust and respect has grown between these crew members. They’re now willing to stand by each other in a way they couldn’t back at the start. Personally speaking, I doubt I’d be letting a suspected Klingon spy wander around my ship after all that but hey, that’s why they’re on Star Trek and I’m not.

Mind you, this is also the organization that thinks letting an evil, genocidal empress from a parallel universe take command of their most useful war asset is a champion idea. If Discovery has shown us one thing over the last fourteen episodes, it’s that Starfleet is not very good at this war thing...
« Last Edit: 10 February, 2018, 02:51:08 pm by blackmocco »
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blackmocco

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Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
« Reply #335 on: 10 February, 2018, 02:49:55 pm »
I also took it as the trust and respect has grown between these crew members. They’re now willing to stand by each other in a way they couldn’t back at the start. Personally speaking, I doubt I’d be letting a suspected Klingon spy wander around my ship after all that but hey, that’s why they’re on Star Trek and I’m not.

Mind you, this is also the organization that thinks letting an evil, genocidal empress from a parallel universe take command of their most useful war asset is a champion idea. If Discovery has shown us one thing over the last fourteen episodes, it’s that Starfleet is not very good at this war thing...
« Last Edit: 10 February, 2018, 02:55:43 pm by blackmocco »
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blackmocco

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Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
« Reply #336 on: 10 February, 2018, 02:50:33 pm »
Oh for fuck’s sake.
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Professor Bear

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Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
« Reply #337 on: 10 February, 2018, 03:23:09 pm »
Rather than race/gender, the difference I see is that a chunk of Discovery's crew are survivors of the Shenzou - notably Keyla and Saru - and in addition to losing their captain and ship supposedly due to her actions, when Michael shows up again they are unwillingly fighting a war they believe was started by their long-time former First Officer,  Starfleet's first convicted mutineer: there is a shared shame by association, and a personal betrayal of trust.

The fact that they were there means they knew Burnham didn't start the war as she was prevented from firing first - if anything, they'd be wondering if she was right all along, especially after Klingons killed and ate their former captain and wiped out Starfleet's admiralty.

All of which doesn't change that none of what we've discussed as to motivations or a change in the ship's atmosphere is actually onscreen - all that's onscreen is high school drama about not eating alone, a scene which played out differently for another character.  I know we're in a post-Last Jedi world where the audience is expected to do all the heavy lifting the script doesn't bother with, but I'm old fashioned and I'm taking Discovery at face value here, and it's been a story about someone who doesn't fit in wherever she's ended up, and now we see the current bunch of snobs she's surrounded with are willing to extend a different level of understanding to her abusive ex.  At best, this just confirms my half-joking summation that Discovery is a ship full of wankers.

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Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
« Reply #338 on: 10 February, 2018, 03:51:05 pm »
all that's onscreen is high school drama about not eating alone, a scene which played out differently for another character.

"We did this to Burnham and we were wrong. Let's not do that again." Is that not a valid interpretation? The time with Burnham (and, quite possibly, a very different moral compass guiding the occupant of the captain's chair) has changed the crew of Discover? Possibly for the better?
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Professor Bear

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Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
« Reply #339 on: 10 February, 2018, 04:14:52 pm »
Have we actually seen Burnham get out of the doghouse yet, tho?  She's been narratively central, but her entire story engine is being an outsider no matter where she is.

I stand by my assessment that the crew are wankers, though I will concede that they've just come back from a universe of evil doubles and I can't really see that reducing their spy-based paranoia levels much, so kudos to them for almost immediately getting over a confirmed murderer wearing someone else's face being among their number.  I imagine it makes it easier to go back to gossiping about that crazy Burnham and her loopy idea back on the Shenzou that the Klingons were about to attack and declare war.

TordelBack

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Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
« Reply #340 on: 10 February, 2018, 04:51:12 pm »
I do think Prof Bear has a point here - set against Michael's longer arc of redemption,  Tyler's quick re-acceptance by the crew seems out of place.  I don't see the race/gender component,  and I think it makes sense for the reasons given earlier,  but it does seem an unfortunate story choice,  unless it becomes a larger point later.

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Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
« Reply #341 on: 10 February, 2018, 05:47:47 pm »
To me, Burnham in her mess hall scene represented the Federation's world and moral compass all turning to shit so nobody wanted to sit with her for fear of being infected by her perceived toxic perspective. They all believed in the Federation and its principles and, at this early stage in the war, may have been terrified to examine those core beliefs too deeply or even risk having them questioned.

Tyler's mess hall scene, in contrast, occurs at a time when the Federation's ethics and procedures (even though distorted by Terran Lorca) have seen the crew through a particularly trying and dangerous time and so the crew sit with him because they fear losing the Federation principles which have served them so well and are, after all, what they've been fighting to preserve.

I see basically the same fear driving both scenes and resulting in different outcomes based only on time and circumstance. The fear of losing the Federation's principles, to my mind, explains both scenes without any need whatsoever to bring sex, race, creed or colour into the mix.


Professor Bear

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Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
« Reply #342 on: 10 February, 2018, 06:58:22 pm »
I do think Prof Bear has a point here

Statistically speaking, it had to happen while I was blathering, but I am as surprised and alarmed by this turn of events as anyone.

Goaty

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Re: PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY THE NEW STAR TREK: DISCOVERY SERIES
« Reply #343 on: 12 February, 2018, 04:35:06 pm »
That was great final episode. Really enjoy it. Nice cameo from Cliff Howard.

And that amazing final scene!! What a cliffhanger!