Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]

[radiator]

After digesting the implications of the last episode for a while I think it's fine. Not Brilliant, but fine. I wanted there to more to the story of The Other's but there isn't and that's fine. I had all kinds of theories about the Night King's motivations, but if it's just genocide, that's fine. He was a non character really, that's fine. Just a metaphor for an seemingly unstoppable force of nature. Fine. Not actually actively evil, just as uncaring as the wind and rain and snow. That's pretty good to be fair.

I really wanted there to be more to it. Some kind of ancient pact between the Children of the Forest and the First Men. There wasn't. The whole thing was an elaborate fake out. A subversion. I don't have a hard time thinking this might have been Martin's plan all along. He's on record in several interviews, stating that The Ultimate Battle Between Good And Evil doesn't really interest him.

I don't really disagree, up to a point. If anything I think the TV show probably showed us too much of the White Walkers and I'm not sure it was the best decision to give them an identifiable leader in the form of the Night King (who is not and will not be a character in the books). I think that the WW work much better as a looming threat and more of an unknowable, alien force of nature. I think I'm right in saying that in five (giant) books they've only appeared 'on screen' (as such) twice(?).

I do however think Martin's infamous quote about Dark Lords and Good Vs Evil is often misconstrued - I think he was just making a point in general about giving his characters and world a bit more depth, especially with regards to characters who might ordinarily be regarded as 'villains' (like Littlefinger and Jaime) - and to show the trials and pitfalls of ruling, and not just ascending to the role of ruler (and this is exactly what A Dance With Dragons is all about with regards to Jon and Dany).

But at the end of the day it's a fantasy epic and there absolutely are characters in the series who are straight up, irredeemable Bad Guys - Ramsey, Roose, Joffrey, Vargo Hoat, Euron Greyjoy, Walder Frey, Craster, The Mountain et al and who ultimately need to be defeated by the Good Guys. And I still very much think that Martin's plan in the books is and always has been leading to some kind of a final showdown between the living and the 'Others/White Walkers', whether that takes the form of a war, or something weirder and more metaphysical (or maybe a combination of both).

[Dudley]

Really disappointed. No problem with the fake out or the deus ex arya, but all the scenes of everyone dying except the characters with plot armour got truly dull after a while.

[Funt Solo]

I hear that many people are expressing frustration, and I wonder if it's to do with hype's remorse?

Only two things were distractions for me during the episode:

1. It wasn't clear if Bran's warging has some later, secret outcome or if he was just observing things through the medium of crows.

2. With the slow-mo in the third act, the depiction of named characters almost but not quite being overwhelmed started to drag a little.

To counter that: it was some of the most amazing television I've ever watched - I could not take my eyes from the screen.  The tension, palpable fear and visceral dread left me shell shocked and mentally gibbering.  That some are calling this bad television seems ... fussy.

[JayzusB.Christ]

.

To counter that: it was some of the most amazing television I've ever watched - I could not take my eyes from the screen.  The tension, palpable fear and visceral dread left me shell shocked and mentally gibbering.  That some are calling this bad television seems ... fussy.

For sure. I'm pretty sure it's the most exciting episode of any series, ever.  As I said on another thread, the quality of TV has us spoilt these days.

Btw I think Bran's warging was a successful attempt to alert the Night King to his whereabouts.

[Mikey]

I made the decision to sub to NowTV given the short run of this series and the risk of spoilers - the shite compression (as it turns out) definitely hasn't helped me get into this. I've watched the previous series on DVD and other streaming services and it's always looked the business, properly cinematic, so I wish I had just waited.

Anyhoo - thought that, despite it looking like it was filmed in a quarry in Larne by third year media students with their da's old camcorder, it was a great episode and loved Arya's kill strike. Genuinely thought a few more would cark it so the tension was there OK.

Regarding the whole WW/Night King threat, as I said to Mrs Mike last night, the show was always about the houses really and this was a distraction for added peril. I'm OK with that. Mrs Mikey vehemently disagrees and reckons if it was all about getting Bran the Night King 'could have just crept up on him, he's only a wee lad in a wheelchair'.

Still looking forward to how they're going to end this, but it does feel a bit like going through the motions.

[radiator]

That some are calling this bad television seems ... fussy.

Pretty sure no one here has said anything of the sort - think the most extreme reaction so far has been mild disappointment mixed in with the praise. Or are you referring to the reaction in the wider fanbase?

[Funt Solo]

@radiator: yes, I was mostly referring to the wider fanbase (or maybe it's just the suggestions that are coming up on my video feeds).  I might be getting skewed by the amount of image quality complaints, as well - thankfully not something I got hit by (although I was watching it on a 1600*900 wee laptop monitor).  Only a couple of folk on here that summed it up as overall a disappointment.  We can agree to disagree for sure.

[sheridan]

Well, that surprised me.

[Link Prime]

That some are calling this bad television seems ... fussy.

Pretty sure no one here has said anything of the sort - think the most extreme reaction so far has been mild disappointment mixed in with the praise.

I actually went full heel turn yesterday afternoon and watched the episode 4 leaks, followed by full spoilers for the remaining 2 episodes.
The one GoT twist I genuinely didn't see coming was me removing the show from my Sky series link.   

[Steve Green]

Episode 4 The Last of the Starks

Can't see that we're down to the last dragon, esp with Euron Greyjoy saying 'yeah I saw it go down myself'

[radiator]

So after all they've been through, the Free Folk are just going to up sticks and go back 'home'? Really?

[Funt Solo]

So after all they've been through, the Free Folk are just going to up sticks and go back 'home'? Really?

I thought that was weird - in the books, there's a deal struck (if memory serves) whereby they get to live in the castles either of the wall, or just south of the wall.  Wasn't Mance Rayder's entire scheme about finding somewhere to live south of the wall?  It didn't seem to have much to do with the threat of the White Walkers.

It struck me as just a convenient way for the show runners to move Tormund off the plot table (and also to move Ghost off the CGI spreadsheet).  It might all have been driven by a need to get rid of the wolf.

Edit: actually, I just Googled it and it turns out that Mance's motivation may have been the coming winter and the danger of the Walkers - so there is some sense that with the double threat lifted, the Wildlings might want to go back home.

[radiator]

So after all they've been through, the Free Folk are just going to up sticks and go back 'home'? Really?

I thought that was weird - in the books, there's a deal struck (if memory serves) whereby they get to live in the castles either of the wall, or just south of the wall.  Wasn't Mance Rayder's entire scheme about finding somewhere to live south of the wall?  It didn't seem to have much to do with the threat of the White Walkers.

It struck me as just a convenient way for the show runners to move Tormund off the plot table (and also to move Ghost off the CGI spreadsheet).  It might all have been driven by a need to get rid of the wolf.

Edit: actually, I just Googled it and it turns out that Mance's motivation may have been the coming winter and the danger of the Walkers - so there is some sense that with the double threat lifted, the Wildlings might want to go back home.

I'd say the motivation was partly the White Walker thing, but also the whole 'not wanting to scratch a desperate living in a frozen hellscape' thing was probably quite a big factor. After all, it's been made clear in the show that the Free Folk have attempted to invade the south multiple times in the past under different leaders, which does seem to contradict the argument that they were only doing so to escape the WW. It does seem like a strange wrap up to the whole Wildling plotline, when you have a ready-made solution baked in to the plot already (ie that they settle in the Gift and/or the formerly abandoned castles of the Nights Watch).

Oh well, Another one of those things you just have to go along with. There were quite a few of them this episode.

The wolf thing; again, I get it, budgets etc etc but it's still a shame just how much they've been short-changed by the TV show given how integral they are to the plot of the books.

[Funt Solo]

++ SPOILERS IN THE OPEN ++

This episode I did struggle with a bit - because the characters seem to be suffering from an overabundance of stupidity, or weirdly lethal accuracy.

Things I didn't like:

• Jaime and Brienne hooking up: she's too tough to cry!
• Bronn teleporting to Winterfell with an ornate crossbow.  Stupid bit of plotting.
• Jon ditching Ghost.  The show ditching Tormund.
• The lethal accuracy of the scorpion bolts at a distance of about a mile.
• The sudden inaccuracy of the scorpion bolts when you're much closer.
• Charging your last remaining dragon straight at the enemy that just killed your 2nd to last dragon.
• Being surprised by a bunch of huge ships when you're in the air and can see everything.
• Not considering the enemy fleet that has already sunk your fleet in that location before.
• Varys swimming ashore.
• Everyone caring loads about the fate of Missandei: who's basically an assistant.
• Anyone appealing to Cersei's better side and expecting anything other than contempt.

At this point, Cersei deserves the throne.  Everyone else is too stupid to sit in it.

[Richard]

I agree with all of that, except Missandei. It was established quite some time ago that Danerys sees her as more than her interpreter, but also as a friend.

As for the wildlings, they're not farmers, they're hunters. They'd presumably have to change their way of life if they settled in the fake North instead of returning to the real North.

Nevertheless, it was still a good episode.