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Author Topic: When did 2000ad get good again.  (Read 3520 times)

Tjm86

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Re: When did 2000ad get good again.
« Reply #60 on: 17 July, 2019, 05:36:30 pm »
Thanks for the input  :)

Of your original list, I’d say some of those aren’t only poor, but are deeply offensive at times, not least Millar’s Robo-Hunter.

Wow - didn't know that. In what way?

The article IndigoPrime references goes a long way to answer that question.  I think it is also worth remembering the era in which it was published.  This was the time of 'lads mags' that were often not far removed from soft pornography.  It was the time of Viz.  The lads culture of the time made for some pretty uncomfortable experiences in general and unfortunately Millar tapped into that. 

You just have to look at the pseudo-Viz aspects of some of the stories he wrote for Robocalls-Hunter.  Look at his portrayal of Cutie, particularly her evolution into a barbie-esque hyper-realisation of a lot of the imagery around at the time.  Big Dave suffered from similar problems, not least of which was it was in completely the wrong publication.  Re-reading some of that stuff is beyond embarrassing.  At times it can be downright disturbing.  Had it shown up in a schoolchild's english book it would have generated a child protection report. 

I'm not sure that I would agree with Frank's assessment of the offensiveness completely.  I get the point and I would agree that elements of his work that are now problematic are largely down to massive changed sensibilities.  I would still argue though that there are other aspects that need to be taken into consideration.

Funt Solo

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Re: When did 2000ad get good again.
« Reply #61 on: 17 July, 2019, 06:01:32 pm »
Pussyfoot 5, though… Wasn’t that in a floppy a while back? I recall that was OK, although left dangling in that way John Smith had a tendency to do.

Standalone, it probably is fine (and was floppied in Meg 281).  Contextually, as it was a spin-off from the superlative Devlin Waugh sequence of Chasing Herod | Reign of Frogs | Sirius Rising, it suffers for me in comparison.

I'm VERY suspicious of those claiming offence on behalf of others, rather than, oh, I don't know, giving someone belonging to the minority involved the opportunity to speak up on their own behalf.

Conversely, it would be idiotic of me to say that only black people can recognize racism as directed towards black people. 

One does not need to be a member of a persecuted group to recognize the persecution.  What would be the motive behind (or effect of) silencing those who are not members of the persecuted group from indicating the persecution?  Perhaps to further isolate the persecuted group?
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JayzusB.Christ

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Re: When did 2000ad get good again.
« Reply #62 on: 17 July, 2019, 06:05:27 pm »
For me, it wasn't Millar's Robohunter that pissed me off.  I only had very vague and distant memories of the original at the time.  I feel obliged to point out that sex-bomb Cutie was a couple of years before the rise of the lad mag (Our Bish -OP surfed the waves of that one more).

No, it was Garth Ennis's Dredd.  Shallow, boring tat almost to an episode, and in every single prog (the return of Wagner hadn't been planned:yet at this point).  I had a friend in university who knew him; I just hoped she wouldn't ever introduce me as I just knew I wouldn't be able to even pretend I liked his work.

To be fair to Garth, he admits he dropped the ball and has since become one of the best writers in the industry.

Also, I quite liked Kola Kommandos.
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Frank

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Re: When did 2000ad get good again.
« Reply #63 on: 17 July, 2019, 06:15:39 pm »
I'm VERY suspicious of those claiming offence on behalf of others, rather than, oh, I don't know, giving someone belonging to the minority involved the opportunity to speak up on their own behalf.

What would be the motive behind (or effect of) silencing those who are not members of the persecuted group from indicating the persecution?  Perhaps to further isolate the persecuted group?

I typed that in maddeningly tiny text, so I can't fault you for missing it.

I don't know if Sequart is a paying gig or not, but I'm sure Phil Jiminez or John Smith would have appreciated being given a platform to share their thoughts on this topic regardless.



Greg M.

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Re: When did 2000ad get good again.
« Reply #64 on: 17 July, 2019, 06:26:17 pm »
Millar’s homophobic portrayal of villains is a consistent and pronounced thread throughout his work on 2000AD – it isn’t just a broad cultural throwback to an age of differing social norms, in the way that, say, Wagner and Grant once tended towards employing comedy Asian stereotypes. Instead, I think there’s something quite calculated about it – and calculation is that it’ll shock / threaten / unsettle the heterosexual teenage male readership of the era, and lead to them enjoying the villain’s destruction by ultra-manly 2000AD characters. Millar was not a 2000AD fan prior to writing for the comic – his stories in the prog are an outsider’s take on what he imagines 2000AD to be like, full of unpleasant, vicious leads, a far cry from Millar’s beloved, comforting US superheroes.

I think the other reason for Millar’s gay villains is that he’s crudely cribbing from the work of John Smith, who he liked and admired, and whose work frequently hinted at or involved non-heterosexual elements. But whereas Smith employed such aspects with subtlety, humour and imagination, Millar goes at the topic like a bull in a china shop.

Funt Solo

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Re: When did 2000ad get good again.
« Reply #65 on: 17 July, 2019, 06:28:16 pm »
Also, I quite liked Kola Kommandos.

And that's why our lists of "bad things" should be ignored in favor of giving everything a go: you might like it.
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IndigoPrime

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Re: When did 2000ad get good again.
« Reply #66 on: 17 July, 2019, 06:38:11 pm »
Millarhunter is deeply offensive in the same way as old episodes of Friends
They weren’t OK at the time either, in the same way it was never fine to use derogatory slurs. It’s just people thought they could get away with it. But as Greg notes, this is beyond Friends – there is a deep problematic undercurrent that runs through a whole lot of Millar's output for 2000 AD during that era. It’s more than “hey, we’re trying to be a bit edgy”. Whether through intent or incompetence, he became the thing he was apparently attempting to satirise or lampoon. His work therefore becomes laced with sexism, racism, and homophobia. It’s not a good look.

Big Dave suffered from similar problems, not least of which was it was in completely the wrong publication.  Re-reading some of that stuff is beyond embarrassing.
I never liked it at the time. That it still has fans today genuinely baffles me. Then again, people still like Ricky Gervais, so I guess there’s always a market for ‘humour’ that thinks it’s clever, but that’s brutally and repeatedly punching down.

Tjm86

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Re: When did 2000ad get good again.
« Reply #67 on: 17 July, 2019, 06:52:02 pm »
This thread now seems to have spawned a sub-thread on the suitability of humour so I'm going to round out my contribution here.  I'm in the 'what the f*** is this s***' camp as one of those who read Big Dave back in the day.  I always said that if I wanted to read Viz I would buy it.  I wanted to read Tooth.

I think back to the sorts of comedy I tend to find amusing; parts of Robin Williams' stand up work, the MASH television series, the MASH report, Dead Ringers, Monty Python, Blackadder, parts of Red Dwarf, Terry Pratchett, Yes Prime / Minister, the Reduced Shakespeare Company, Nigel Farage ... one of the things that I've realised is that they avoid these 'edgy' tropes.  Or perhaps it is that most of them tend to send up authority and authority figures rather than ridiculing minority groups.  A lot of it also tends to be suitable enough that I wouldn't be embarrassed if my mother walked in as I was watching.  Ah, maybe I'm just turning into a GKOS!

Jim_Campbell

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Re: When did 2000ad get good again.
« Reply #68 on: 17 July, 2019, 07:31:56 pm »
Ah, maybe I'm just turning into a GKOS!

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Frank

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Re: When did 2000ad get good again.
« Reply #69 on: 17 July, 2019, 07:42:24 pm »
I think back to the sorts of comedy I tend to find amusing; parts of Robin Williams' stand up work, the MASH television series, the MASH report, Dead Ringers, Monty Python, Blackadder, parts of Red Dwarf, Terry Pratchett, Yes Prime / Minister, the Reduced Shakespeare Company, Nigel Farage ... one of the things that I've realised is that they avoid these 'edgy' tropes.

Not having a go at you, Tjm, but, as you would expect for material of that vintage, there are a number of hostages to fortune on that list. I'm sure if I knew the others better I'd be able to cite examples for them, and - as Smith points out with Millar's work - there are get-out clauses.

Nobody's arguing material like that or Millar's never caused offence, but mainstream culture definitely considered it okay as recently as 2009. Around the birth of social media, not coincidentally. It seems strange to think of now, but for a brief period it was a sort of empathy machine.

I too have come to regret my part in derailing OtherJimbo's thread. Let's unite in agreement that he can safely skip most of Millar's 2000ad work.



Richard

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Re: When did 2000ad get good again.
« Reply #70 on: 17 July, 2019, 08:01:59 pm »
Slaughterbowl was a great story, although I think it was let down by mediocre art. It got me through the Summer Offensive. I enjoyed Inferno at the time, and although on re-reading it years later I realised it's actually rubbish, it does have fully painted art by Carlos Ezquerra and it's some of his best work ever.

The Clown is unfairly maligned, it was alright. It has a joke in it that made me unable to stop laughing for ages.

As someone else said above, Pussyfoot 5 suffers by comparison with Devlin Waugh, but taken on its own it's pretty good. Probably easier to follow if you read it all in one go instead of prog by prog.

And I have to defend Garth Ennis here. Yes, some of his Jusge Dredd stories were dire, but also some of them were pretty good, and some were excellent: Raider, Justice One, Twilight's Last Gleaming, Return of the King, The Marshal,  Ex-Men, and Unwelcome Guests are all highlights. Karl Urban mentioned Raider as one of his faves from when he was researching the role. So there!

Definitely avoid Space Girls and Drudgefather.

SmallBlueThing(Reborn)

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Re: When did 2000ad get good again.
« Reply #71 on: 17 July, 2019, 08:08:26 pm »
I haven't read it since it was in the prog, but wasn't Urban Strike more of a satire of those kind of things, but wrapped up in an "extended ad for a video game"? Wasn't it actually full.of clever dialogue and gags? Or am I getting it mixed up with Black Light or similar?
I loved Big Dave (haven't read it for years), Dead Meat (the "featuring Inspector Raam" cover is a personal favourite of that era), and Brigand Doom is perpetually on my list of things I want to see reprinted either in trade or Meg floppy.
Much of that period has a certain charm to me. I'd even give Time house another go if I came across it in the box stack.

Not Zippy Couriers or RAM Raiders though. Never them.

SBT


Leigh S

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Re: When did 2000ad get good again.
« Reply #72 on: 17 July, 2019, 08:10:49 pm »
I'd be intrigued if you could at least read part 1 of every skippable story - maybe keep going if it might not seem as bad as all that - then report back either "U WOZ ALL WRONGZ" or merely which episode the strip was ditched at!

Millar was not the original Edgelord, nor the last one sadly - if he had been born 20 years later he could ahve been bigger than Pewdiepie

Richard

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Re: When did 2000ad get good again.
« Reply #73 on: 17 July, 2019, 08:15:00 pm »
Oh and skip Wireheads and Kid Cyborg.

Jim_Campbell

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Re: When did 2000ad get good again.
« Reply #74 on: 17 July, 2019, 08:18:58 pm »
Oh and skip Wireheads and Kid Cyborg.

Wireheads was appalling. Kid Cyborg commits the perhaps-worse sin of being so utterly unmemorable that I can remember literally nothing about it, including the name of the series until you just mentioned it.
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