prog 2182: So long and geek out

[Batman's Superior Cousin]

Acknowledging that Huffster and Batson are squaxx of long standing whose opinions are informed and weighty, I do wonder about dismissing in advance  (1) a new series that no-one has read yet,  (2) another of which there has been precisely one episode and (3) an as-yet unseen Dredd story.

Opinions on The Order and SIáine I get, those are largely known quantities at this point.  Do y'all know something I don't...?

I'm sorry Tordle but I'm sorry to have to say this but I just don't like either The Order or SIáine as much as the rest of the community for various reasons which if I say, might cause some offence with some users, including both the mod's and the staff of the comic (since I respect them you all equally). As for the other strips:
1) Dredd - I have nothing against Dredd, I absolutely love Dredd.
2) Full Tilt Boogie -  It sort of had my interest back when it was in the Prog last year, but I'm not eagerly looking forward to it than say Dredd, Brink, Shakara, Stickleback, Dante, Ten-Seconders, Proteus Vex, Cradlegrave, Survival Geeks, 86er's or Damnation Station in the Prog or even Lawless and Blunt in the Meg.
3) Nakka of the S.T.A.R.S - Since it's a relatively new strip, I'll best reserve judgement on it.

[MumboJimbo]

Incidentally, I think Tharg may have missed a trick by not starting the new Full Tilt Boogie series in next week's all ages issue. If he wants people who buy it buy the next issues, that is. Of course, there's two obvious drawbacks: firstly it would no longer be a completely self-contained affair, and secondly your usual 2000 Ad prog may not be suitable for youngsters who might read the All Ages prog. But if it's not a way to get more people reading the prog, then what are the All Ages progs for?

[Robert Frazer]

I doubt that kids themselves are buying the all-ages editions of 2000AD - rather, it's more likely that parents are buying the all-ages 2000AD so that when they sit down for their afternoon reading they have something they can share with their kids... or, alternatively, the sort of adults who review Nicktoons on Twitter are just buying it for themselves. In any case, seeing as they've revived the all-ages takeover multiple times now it's a strategy that's clearly working to bump up the sales figures.

[MumboJimbo]

Yes, good point

[Richard]

If it means more revenue for Rebellion to invest in 2000AD or in the Treasury of British Comics, then I'm all for it. It's only four times a year and it doesn't cost subscribers extra. (But I wish they'd stop this Cadet Dredd business; when I was of primary school age I wanted to read stories about grown-ups, not about kids.)

[IndigoPrime]

Very much enjoyed the whole Chimsky's Law tale although agreed with what has already been said about the helmet debacle. Given the choice between enforcing the law and keeping on his helmet, Dredd would unhesitatingly choose the law.

Probably, but we have for years had people pretty much screaming at the Prog to add a bit of whimsy back to Dredd, which is so often these days a grim procedural. That kind of throwaway nonsense was, to me, a grin-inducing throwback to a different era of the comic, which dared to marry fun with death and destruction. Sure, it was silly and logically doesn't really hold; but it for me was one of the best moments in recent Progs.

On Hershey, I'm happy they made a woman of her age look like a woman of her age. It's a small thing, but 2000 AD still really struggles with diversity. Scan through most strips, and they are packed full of average-bodied white men. The Judges — in a future USA — are mostly white blokes. When female judges do appear, they often appear to resemble models. Anderson, despite being, what, in her 50s, mostly looks like a 20-year-old in the 1990s, hunting around for a gig in Loaded or FHM. So actually showing Hershey as she would be is really great, even if it shouldn't at all be anomalous.

then what are the All Ages progs for?

Money. Rebellion's already noted the Regened Prog sold more than any other single issue. So under normal circumstances (i.e. with existing newsstand), you can assume this upcoming one would have done much the same, acting like a pseudo special. There's also value in the content. Get enough Cadet Dredd strips and you can compile them into a collection.

There may also be an element of testing the water. See which brands work. Do any look potentially sustainable for a new title? With 2000 AD more or less abandoned to old gits like us, is there a way for Rebellion to issue something regular for the kids? (And, let's face it, the kids aren't terribly well catered for once they grow out of bagged plastic tat. Frankly, I desperately hope The Phoenix's primarily subs model sees it through unscathed.)

[CalHab]

If it means more revenue for Rebellion to invest in 2000AD or in the Treasury of British Comics, then I'm all for it. It's only four times a year and it doesn't cost subscribers extra. (But I wish they'd stop this Cadet Dredd business; when I was of primary school age I wanted to read stories about grown-ups, not about kids.)

One great thing about the Regened progs, is that they really, really annoy the kind of people who are most vocal on Facebook "fan" pages.

[broodblik]

I do not mind the regen prog per say but I only want it to create a natural break between stories. prog 2184 is all new stories rather than waiting for 2 weeks for continuous of the current stories.

[Colin YNWA]

On Hershey, I'm happy they made a woman of her age look like a woman of her age. It's a small thing, but 2000 AD still really struggles with diversity. Scan through most strips, and they are packed full of average-bodied white men. The Judges — in a future USA — are mostly white blokes. When female judges do appear, they often appear to resemble models. Anderson, despite being, what, in her 50s, mostly looks like a 20-year-old in the 1990s, hunting around for a gig in Loaded or FHM. So actually showing Hershey as she would be is really great, even if it shouldn't at all be anomalous.

Yeah I know some folks on in some places can be a bit sneering about this being an issue but it is. As you say 2000ad has struggled with diversity in the past and the way Anderson is presented is at times a little embarrassing in this day and age.

Why shouldn't a woman of age be shown as a woman of age? We have no problem showing Dredd as a weather beaten older man. Why on earth can't Hershey and Anderson? Some folks can bemoan characters being portrayed 'out of character' yet in a visual medium still seem to expect female characters to be shown as 'pert young things' with bodies contoured at curious angles.

There may also be an element of testing the water. See which brands work. Do any look potentially sustainable for a new title? With 2000 AD more or less abandoned to old gits like us, is there a way for Rebellion to issue something regular for the kids? (And, let's face it, the kids aren't terribly well catered for once they grow out of bagged plastic tat. Frankly, I desperately hope The Phoenix's primarily subs model sees it through unscathed.)

Yes exactly this - I hope. As MumboJimbo suggests its seem very possible the sales on the previous 'all ages' being high is very likely older folks like me buying multiple copies, one for them, of for the kids. Now if that is the case BUT those same folks are prepared to be this on a more sustained basis all of a sudden its possible a comic like this could sustain?

As IndigoPrime say The Phoenix as a very fine product - and we do both go on about it quite a lot in these parts and hopefully its built on a model that should not only sustain in times like this but in theory flourish. Jim - I think it is - has said many times that the cost of launching a new title are frightening BUT Rebellion will have a lot of the infrastructure in place to do this. Is producing more and more material with the new Specials, Roy of the Rovers etc so maybe sniffing around the edges of all this here is a place for a new comic - just which one in what format. Certainly the all ages 2000ad is a very different beast to The Phoenix which while wonderful is safe and 2000ad would have more of an edge as it did of old.

Does it have to be 2000ad? Could it draw on a number of sources like the Phoenix. Young Dredd, mixed with Roy, mixed with some of the other Archieve properers, new materials. The Phoenix doesn't have a single theme so that could work?

[Colin YNWA]

If it means more revenue for Rebellion to invest in 2000AD or in the Treasury of British Comics, then I'm all for it. It's only four times a year and it doesn't cost subscribers extra. (But I wish they'd stop this Cadet Dredd business; when I was of primary school age I wanted to read stories about grown-ups, not about kids.)

One great thing about the Regened progs, is that they really, really annoy the kind of people who are most vocal on Facebook "fan" pages.

Snigger.

Though to be fair that doesn't take much. In some case anything published since 1989 seems to do it!

[broodblik]

Sometimes for something you love to exist, something else must exits which you do not like.

[IndigoPrime]

The thing that kind of gets me on Facebook is how many people haven't read the Prog since something like 1989, and yet still find the need to crap all over what it's doing today. I mean, I get it if you want to remain wrapped in your bubble and think nostalgia beats quality — because, let's face it, a lot of old 2000 AD does NOT hold up that well today, for all kinds of reasons — but to also throw all objectivity out of the window baffles me. (That's not to say 2000 AD is shitting gold every time, note. But 2000 AD has been a remarkably solid comic throughout Smith's run, and juggling everything for an anthology is a thankless and difficult task.)

On representation, I guess I just want 2000 AD to go further. I've had a go about The Phoenix about this. They do quite well, but still struggle (far too many male-led strips). 2000 AD is saddled to some extent by legacy, but it just needs a bit of thought. Why do so many artists default to literally every Judge being a burly bloke, bar when the pert Psi Judge rocks up? Perhaps the gradual increase in female creatives on the title will shift that a little. Here's hoping. (And, yes, Dredd can be — and usually is — a craggy old bastard, and so that looks very odd when he's next to Hershey or Anderson, both only ~15 years his junior, and they look like they're barely older than teens.)

As for another comic, it's hard to know what should be done, and what the market might sustain. Rebellion undoubtedly has a certain amount of infrastructure in place, but a new launch would still be a hell of a risk. Getting anything on to newsstands at the best of times is tricky and expensive, but after COVID is I suspect going to be vanishingly unlikely. But if the company did do this, what title should it be? To my mind, 2000 AD But Younger really muddies the waters. But nothing else really has a brand that shines through these days, bar, perhaps the humour stuff. Even then, Rebellion would have to tread carefully. Although I enjoyed Cor!/Buster a hell of a lot, putting them up week by week against The Beano and The Phoenix would be a tough ask. (Mind you, perhaps that would also just provide more outlets for great cartoonists...)

[Colin YNWA]

You make very good points and this is all pointless speculation as maybe, maybe there were plans before Covid19, but whatever they were will almost certianly be thrown into the air now. That said if Rebellion find folks are turning to comics and reading as an outlet in these times, who knows, could be that a sub model and online purchase is working... though overall crushing economic turmoil and no one spending money on expensive luxuries like comics seems far more likely alas. And it feels much more likely these products we hailed here are just in hanging on to survive mode?

But iiiiifffffff we got something new...

I really think a comic called Thrillpower (okay that's probably a terrible title, what do I know), buoyed and shielded in the known(ish) properties of Tharg, but not bound by them. So Roy, or better still Rocky of the Rovers alongside Cadet Dredd, some new materials from the all ages specials - as you so rightly say a new title can't fail where comics of the past have - there is no legacy or history to tie it down. The comic must be representative and have the diversity that society does*.Throw in some Misty Scream titles, so 13th Floor for Future Shocks format and you get the best of safe hands - pull mom and pop in for old time excitment - much like Tharg used Dan Dare, but pop it into the new.

Don't put it against The Beano and The Phoenix as they are there, put it between them and 2000ad. Using us lot as a key marketing tool. The older 2000ad readers with kids who we want to pimp our habit on. Find out whatever The Phoenix did to build a new audience since 2012 and easy - see simple as that successful comic.

Though whether there is a market between The Beano / The Phoenix and 2000ad is the question? Is there enough folks there willing to get into a habit like ours? Christ we gotta hope so.

Alas one economic disaster later and we may well never find out... even if we were about to... oh who knows but its fun to speculate.

*Should I refer to this as 'diversity', surely its just representation. Diversity makes it sound forced like you are trying to push things to 'diverse' places, where as what's needed is simply representing society and folks who live in it. Anyway I really am going beyond what I know here ... well even more than normal!

[73north]

I have been having a long week at work ( 12 hours days in the NHS ) so yet again , I have been
very slow in posting my thoughts on this week's Prog -
frustrating as I get up at 6am and go to bed at 10pm - so my hobbies are dead and buried
( its the dehydration and stress of wearing the Covid Valve face masks in Anaesthetics )
As I said a while ago , the next time Jaegir is back , I know now what Nu-Eartrh would be like

What Bruno Stahl very kindly sent me - when I bought his Comic ' The Hans '
( the aircraft to the right is George Preddy's Cripes A' Mighty 3rd

Dredd - very enjoyable and fun - and great artwork ( 5 out of 5 )

The Order - sorry to say , I don't welcome the return of this series - the first 2 episodes were very good and original - but for me its been downhill fast - the arts still great ( John Burns take a bow )
but I now struggle to work out what's been happening in The Order , and I now just don't care to find out .
If my opinion is a minority , that's fine with me , as long as a lot of people enjoy it .
( 1 out of 5 )

Future Shocks - Sublime Story-telling and a nice twist at the end ( 5 out of 5 )
Robin Henley - good job on the artwork , sir .

Hershey - This was a redemption and was a lot better , than last week - I will give the next series a chance and hope its good ( Simon Fraser - great artwork and Simon Bowland - nice colouring )
4 out of 5

Survival Geeks - I am glad the series comes to an end - I just hope it gets replaced with something good .
ABC Warriors by Pat Mills would do .
I thank Gordon Rennie for the great work involved - and Neil Googe for the nice art .
I hope he gives us a new series and character - as we have now lost 2 long-running stories from him
and he fills in a vital part of the Prog - Now can you get writing more Jaegir , please sir ?
I am also delighted Strontium Dog is back , I still hope he gets another new series in the Adult Prog
( 4 out of 5 )
Here is too the Regened Prog

Thank you 2000ad - its appreciated !

[IndigoPrime]

It's hard to know where the market will settle after COVID. Some titles will perform better than others, but anything overly reliant on the newsstand is going to suffer to some extent. The question is how many people have decided that they want to convert a habit into a subscription. I know some titles I work on have seen massive subscription upticks, but that doesn't counter the severe newsstand loss.

However, IF shops can reopen to some extent in June or July, perhaps the short-term loss can become a long-term gain, with more subscribers and a return to more-or-less stable newsstand sales. The level of economic shock will determine some of that — although people do still like luxuries, even when funds are tight. Perhaps favourite mags/comics might be OK. Hard to tell.

On something new, I know Matt isn't keen to cross the streams, hence 2000 AD not becoming a home for revamped takes on content from other titles (bar those that already merged with 2000 AD, obviously). But that doesn't suggest the rest couldn't merge into something new, positioned in the bracket below 2000 AD (which is still technically a 'teens' comic, but in reality is now mostly bought by the 30+ bracket).

Though whether there is a market between The Beano / The Phoenix and 2000ad is the question?

I heard some interesting stuff about The Beano recently. When the new editor subtly revamped the comic, recognising the need to make it appealing to both genders, sales went up and the gender split of readers quite heavily shifted. Not a big surprise, I suppose, when Dennis stopped going URGH: GIRLS! and had two girls among his best mates. But also, readers have reportedly got older — The Beano now has people checking it out into their tweens — far beyond the intended audience.

The Phoenix already attempts to address a very tricky and wide age range of 7–14, and it does so very well. So where would a new Rebellion comic sit? Also, these comics are relentlessly solid — and so Rebellion would have to be quite careful to ensure the quality of whatever it puts out isn't patchy. I'd argue, though, it does have a number of ins, when it comes to things like the sheer range of ideas in IP it owns, and also the ability to be a bit edgy. (To my mind, The Beano is too heavily reliant on wordplay in all its scripts. It's pretty relentless. The best stuff is when it frees things up a bit, such as Betty and the Yeti. The Phoenix has a lot more fun in trying stuff, shifting seemingly effortlessly between anarchic Jamie Smart strips, silly one-pagers, and action fare. But there's little grit in there.)

Should I refer to this as 'diversity', surely its just representation. Diversity makes it sound forced like you are trying to push things to 'diverse' places, where as what's needed is simply representing society and folks who live in it.

Well, that's my take as well. But I don't really care what it's called, as long as it happens. Although I've criticised The Phoenix and The Beano for this in the past, they are making an effort. The Beano is unfortunately saddled by a lot of legacy (such as Bash Street Kids), but Betty and JJ are POC, and there are girls beyond tom boys now. The Phoenix has a wider range of characters and body types in its strips, and I had a lovely chat on Twitter with Jamie Smart about how even in BvM he realised after a while about how the forest was basically filled with male characters, and sought to address that.

As I've said plenty of times, 2000 AD needs to be better in this area, both in terms of characters and art. But certainly if there's a new title for the younger generation, someone needs to sit and look at what's on offer, and decide whether it wants to be representative or instead be an echo of the past.