Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi

[The Enigmatic Dr X]

Wow. Two of the worst plot holes I have ever come across, in any medium, totally spoiled this:

1. Laura Dern. [spoiler]If she just hadn't been so bloody minded and told the 400 desperate people for whom she was responsible that, y'know, she had a plan... then there'd have been no need to look for the code breaker[/spoiler]

2. Del Toro. [spoiler]HOW? HOW? HOW could he sell out the rebels? He was only ever with Finn and Rose, and they didn't know Dern's plan (see point 1).[/spoiler]

[TordelBack]

The same when Luke calls it a laser sword - it jars a bit as if it's from someone talking about Star Wars rather than being a character inside it.

That's a solid prequel reference, though - L'I'll Ani recognises Qui-Gon because of his 'laser sword'. It's meant to evoke the outsider's perception of the Jedi.

As to the rest, yes you can see it that way, but i'd remind you about things like "dusting crops", "see you in hell", and "would it help if I got out and pushed?". All quite 20th Century idioms.

[JamesC]

Return of the Jedi remains my favourite Star Wars film (the original version, before they ruined it).

Anyone know how the Fox merger affects the likelihood of Disney rereleasing the unaltered originals?

I had always assumed they were waiting for Lucas to pop his clogs, but maybe this changes things?

I'm really hoping the original versions will be released. I assume as Disney own the rights they can do what they like but I guess that may not be th case.

The more I think about The Last Jedi the more I feel like I did after watching Star Trek: Into Darkness. After a promising set-up film, the characters don't feel like they've developed much over this film and some of the most dramatic situations don't feel earned (Snoke's death feels meaningless). It all looks pretty (though the re-designs of Star Destroyers and walkers are inferior to the originals) and there are some good bits here and there but it's not a patch on any of the original films.
Overall, enjoyable but a bit disappointing. Like when all the best chocs have gone out of the Quality Street and you're left with the second stringers.

[TordelBack]

Sorry, double post.

[radiator]

Wow. Two of the worst plot holes I have ever come across, in any medium, totally spoiled this...

Yeah....

Also, worth pointing out that [spoiler]all everything Finn/Poe a did in this movie resulted in more far more deaths than if they would have just done nothing. Wow, what great heroes. You could argue that's somewhat the point of Poe's arc, I'd argue that it's not intentional (the death of the bomber crews provides that function), it's just a byproduct of sloppy storytelling.[/spoiler]

The whole premise was so overly complicated for what it needed to be. [spoiler]'We need to get down to the surface of this planet so we can call our 'friends on the outer rim' to come help - let's just hope the Empire didn't bring a BATTERING RAM CANNON' seems like such a flimsy setup for the end of the movie. For simplicities sake why not just keep the rebels under siege on Crait for the duration of the movie and make that the ticking clock? Makes more sense to me than the really convoluted 'running out of fuel/hyperspace tracker' plot.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]Why didn't the Empire just nuke Crait from space? On Hoth, they needed to do a ground assault to knock out the shield generators, right?[/spoiler]

2. Del Toro

Ha, yeah. I didn't even catch that one. [spoiler]In any case, why did DJ even need to 'sell out' the rebels anyway? Did they not have him captive? Maybe I missed it - there was so much going on at that point I was finding it really hard to follow.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]Also, having the sketchiest, least trustworthy character be the one to him ultimately betray them was such a non-twist.[/spoiler]

[Mattofthespurs]

Look, it's a f*cking mess.

Taken on face value it's decent but look under the script and it's horrible.

People are, I think, One or the other.

I think it's a horrible mess.

[SIP]

Look, it's a f*cking mess.

Taken on face value it's decent but look under the script and it's horrible.

People are, I think, One or the other.

I think it's a horrible mess.

I also thought it was horrible mess, and provided completely unsatisfying closure to all of the potentially interesting mysteries that force awakens set up. I think that the treatment of luke skywalker was awful and a huge anticlimax. Sadly none of these things can be "fixed" in episode 9.......and the heroic luke of return of the jedi is lost to this very poor ending.

Why does everything in Disney star wars have to end so grimly? All three of the new star wars films so far have left me feeling down.

The end luke diversion sequence would have played out in a far more satisfying manner if actually had been there. Give me a bad ass luke sequence....make it an epic fight, and if he died at the end of it, then it would have been a memorable and heroic end. What I got here was luke pulling a trick. That's pretty much all he did in the whole film.   I waited 2 years for that?

Disappointed doesn't quite cover it. The rot started with Rebels for me, I mostly enjoyed force awakens ( except for the poor han solo decision), but rogue one and then this are hammering nails into the coffin. If Han Solo movie is another mess for me, then I will cut my losses with modern star wars, I'm just not enjoying it.......which is a depressing admission for a 40-year fan to admit.

[TordelBack]

The FO couldn't [spoiler]nuke Craig from orbit cos they had a shield up, and the bombers had taken out their shield busting capability with the Dreadnought.

I'm assuming DJ snooped on the frequency Poe used. And two point of his sudden-yet-inevitable betrayal was to show that the galaxy of this time was full of bystanders who wouldn't help, in contrast to Han in ANH.
[/spoiler]
To read folk picking holes, you'd swear the plots of any previous SW made sense.

[SIP]

Script/plot holes are certainly not my issue. I'm not overly bothered by that if I'm having a fun time.

My issues are with the treatment of almost every character in the film, and the universally disappointing (for me) resolution of the dangling threads from force awakens.

[Steve Green]

The same when Luke calls it a laser sword - it jars a bit as if it's from someone talking about Star Wars rather than being a character inside it.

That's a solid prequel reference, though - L'I'll Ani recognises Qui-Gon because of his 'laser sword'. It's meant to evoke the outsider's perception of the Jedi.

As to the rest, yes you can see it that way, but i'd remind you about things like "dusting crops", "see you in hell", and "would it help if I got out and pushed?". All quite 20th Century idioms.

I don't see those as quite the same, [spoiler]If they'd said running on fumes, I could have gone with that -
some phrases seem more universal than others. Gas just seemed too specifically American 20th century.

I didn't much like laser sword being used in the prequels either. But compared to the rest of the problems they had, that was minor.

And yes, Tarzan Chewie in ROTJ is duff as well.[/spoiler]

[radiator]

The end l[spoiler]uke diversion sequence would have played out in a far more satisfying manner[/spoiler] if actually had been there.

To me it all just seemed pretty clearly constructed that way because the director had decided how he wanted [spoiler]Luke's final scene to play out - staring at the dual sunset - and had to contrive a way to make it work with also having him save the day at the rebel base[/spoiler]. It was a peculiar way to end it imo - didn't work for me at all.

[Professor Bear]

"Now that it's over, I can see that there were logical failings in that space wizard film, and this has negated the enjoyment I felt at the time."

There's a TV Tropes term I've never actually heard in the wild called "Fridge Logic", denoting something in a story that's perfectly fine as you're watching/reading, but after The Spell Of The Story is broken and you go grab something from the fridge, you go "hang on a minute (for example) there are many numerous ways Taylor could have realised he was on Earth all along, from Roman Latin-derived English as a spoken and written language widely in use, the climate, the stars, the fauna, horses..."
Fridge Logic is basically when the story is going well and keeping you entertained enough that it maintains the spell.  All you can really ask is that something keep you in the moment for the duration of its story, because, y'know, it's all just fiction, like.

[JamesC]

The weird force-projection stuff was something I think did work, both with the Rey / Kylo communication and Luke's rouse.
While I thought Hamill was great, I really wanted Luke to do more throughout the film. I think it's a shame we didn't get to see him in the X-Wing one last time. I was half expecting him to blow up the ram-cannon by bullseying it with a proton torpedo.

[The Enigmatic Dr X]

"Now that it's over, I can see that there were logical failings in that space wizard film, and this has negated the enjoyment I felt at the time."

There's a TV Tropes term I've never actually heard in the wild called "Fridge Logic", denoting something in a story that's perfectly fine as you're watching/reading, but after The Spell Of The Story is broken and you go grab something from the fridge, you go "hang on a minute (for example) there are many numerous ways Taylor could have realised he was on Earth all along, from Roman Latin-derived English as a spoken and written language widely in use, the climate, the stars, the fauna, horses..."
Fridge Logic is basically when the story is going well and keeping you entertained enough that it maintains the spell.  All you can really ask is that something keep you in the moment for the duration of its story, because, y'know, it's all just fiction, like.

I agree. But I found the plot holes so jarring that I lost all involvement in the plot while in my cinema seat.

[TordelBack]

... the universally disappointing (for me) resolution of the dangling threads from force awakens.

Reading current interviews with Johnson, it seems clear that none of the mysteries in TFA ever had answers. It was just Abrams being Abrams, and Johnson just took a shot at moving on past it all. Personally I thought [spoiler]his Gordian Knot solution to Rey's parentage[/spoiler] was the only one that could have worked, but it was still a bit disappointing.

At least one of Lucas' mysteries had a satisfying answer, even if he made that one up on the fly too.