The Alan Moore Appreciation Society

[Will I. Cooling]

Agree with you on his politics. One of the most idiotic things I have ever heard was him saying that Thatcher had brought faciscm to Britain. Now whether you like Thatcher or not anyone with half a brain can see that neo-liberal, free market democractic conservatism is different to coporate, planned/kartell dominated faciscm.

Will

[Art]

Ah, but the "Free Market" was always just an illusion... I think any time you get someone centralising power, using state money to give jobs to their rich mates, using social policies to crush the weak and pursuing a militaristic agenda you're going to get people shouting Fascism, and rightly so.

[Will I. Cooling]

Er how was privatising oil, phones, gas (production and supply), electricity, water, arms manufactor, Brtish airways, allowing people to buy council houses and giving up the governments control over the exchange rate "centralising power"?

Will

[Art]

You mean taking publicly owned companies and handing them over to a gang of fat cat tory cronies who couldn't run a piss up in a brewry, then yes. Taken a train lately?

[Will I. Cooling]

Didn't say whether it was a good/bad move (although I agree with all bar the trains) but surely privatising an industry, taking something out of the states hands is not centralising power but decentralising power?

Will

[Mikey]

Have you ever heard of the Miners Strike??Thatcher destroyed many many lives,she was motivated by a 'noblesse oblige'in which we weren't trusted owning important stuff,and earning a wage.People lost their jobs,had to rely on benefits,consequently blamed by tories for being lazy workshy scum,who spend their Big Issue money on booze.Tried to take the focus away from Guy Fawkes and put it into a yankee style Haloween that we see.Grrr.Anyway.

Alan Moore.Back on topic

Top Ten Book 2-I've only seen a hardback,and it's quite pricy;is there a paperback on the way soon?
M.

[JimBob]

 Well Mikey, as my history teacher used to say when anyone wrote gubbins in an essay "that's one interpratation of events."

[Will I. Cooling]

Actually I think your not listening.

I did not say I defended Thatcher or what Thatcher did was right (although as it happens I do although please lets not go down the road of me v an entire forum, I get enough of that at ADF) My point was that what Thatcher was doing wasn't Fascist. Fascism as developed by Musslouni was a system that saw the three sections of society (state, workers and employers) working together in a largely planned econemy. A mild version of this was Britain in the 70s. Thatcher moved AGAINST this by introducing a freeer market, reducing the involvement of the state in the market (via privatisiation and the end of income policies and control of the exchange rate). Thatcher was in economic terms the antithesis of facsicm. That was the narrow point I was making which is why does who call Thatcher "fasicist" are in my humble opinion speaking out of their arse.

Will

[Art]

She may have been against the state controlling industry, but she was definately pro-her mates controling it. oh, and big bungs all round, naturally.

[Mikey]

Heh,"gubbins"is a good word.

I didn't call her fascist.

Alan Moore rools.

[JimBob]

 Mills Fan,
      top tip, whether I agree with you or not(and I am this boards equivalnet of a telegraph bothering retired Major) I would not be even vaguley kind to Thatcher whilst baring the name MillsFan. You do realise the Paganbullshitmaster (TM) will hunt you down and wear your soul as an ecologically friendly Walpurgis night (Halloweens like too commercial) hat? You have been warned MF, change your name or your views or you'll be dragged to the satanic haberdashery of the Occult.

Jim  

[Mikey]

Yes Mills Fan-it's time to marry your personalities!A Celtic warrior with a navy pinstripe pair of breeks would be lush.
(Pat Mills is a fascist)
Heh.
M.

[Generally Contrary]

The big problem with privatisation is that it sold utilities (necessary utilities) to a small group of people - in comparison to before when everyone, nominally at least, had a share.  I've heard the argument that the money from the sale was ploughed back into other services, to which I say 'perhaps'.  But these benefits were enjoyed by all, not just the section of society that lost its share in the common ownership of national services.  Furthermore, every single privatisation was undervalued, so a group of upper-middle class Tory voters were able to buy other people's property at scandalously discounted prices, while enjoying the proceeds at the same time.

The second problem with privatisation of major services is that they are too large for effective competition to work, the big plus of private ownership.  It was the transfer of a state monopoly to a private monopoly.  It also fractured the integrated ownership of chains of supply.  If the mining, the transport and the power generation are all publicly owned, then there are far fewer stages at which profit needs to be made and money leached from the system.  If all these stages now need to turn a profit, who suffers?  Either the consumer or the worker.

Public ownership also allowed democratic, responsible support for unprofitable sections of the industry/service.  The 'cash cow' aspects of the public portfolio could be used to support the development of unprofitable sources of power, the payment of the living wage at unprofitable sectors of the supply chain and, outside of the immediate industry the generation of wealth at the disposal of the government.

There are many flaws, but not as many as with 'consumer power'.  I want to live in a democracy, where my arguments will stand and fall (mainly fall) on their merits, not a consumer society where my ability to influence things depends on whether I fall into the ABC1 social group or another profitable market sector.  Yet I have seen the decline in the local bus service, a neccessary service for the unprofitable poor, while the commuter lines have prices forced down by rampant competition (and drivers wages/conditions).  Yet before, it was possible for the public owned bus service to manage itself in more than just the interest of profit.

Of course, the clinching argument as to why these things should never have been sold is that fact that we cannot allow these services to fail, and as such we now fund them with our taxes.    

[JimBob]

 Vaguely on topic, have you ever heard of the alleged facist cabal involving Hughie Greene, Norris McWhirter and som army colonels? They were trying to organise the seizure of power. I know this sounds franklly mad, but I've heard this in a number of places, anyone able to back up/disprove the story? We need to know!

Jim
I mean that most sincerely folks...

[petemaskreplica]

Top Ten Book 2 is out in paperback now.
Thatcher? I'm not touching that one with a ten foot pole.