Grant Morrison or Alec Worley - Writers Solhiem Cup - Tie 16

[Tomwe]

Grant Morrison - 4

Alec Worley - 1

[SmallBlueThing(Reborn)]

5-0 Worley

I've never liked Zenith- it's just plainly a rip-off of Moore's work. And I've never understood why it's not seen as such. Plus Morrison is such an objectionable sod, the absolute epitome of 'Emporer's New Clothes' that I can't even give him a point for some of his prog work I did kind of like.

Worley wrote the excellent HookJaw and several other things that are never less than entertaining.

SBT

[broodblik]

Why do you say Zenith is a rip-off of Moore's work (Watchmen?)

[milstar]

Why do you say Zenith is a rip-off of Moore's work (Watchmen?)

Don't know for Zenith, but he ripped Alan off in Future Shocks.

[JayzusB.Christ]

For me, Zenith is an incredible piece of work.  Firstly it was a fun piece of classic comics, with superheroes fighting Nazis and Lovecraft monsters.  On top of this, it was a shrewd satire on the shallowness of 80s pop culture, and a necessary dig at the politics of the day.  But this was all woven into that breathtakingly complex background of the omnihedral multiverse and the alignment, which took me over 20 years to really understand (and even now I'm still finding bits I missed).

Before the Summer Offensive came out, I was thinking 'Wow! The Zenith writer is doing more stuff for 2000ad!'  Then it was a case of 'Hang on, what's this all about?'  But gradually I got the hang of Big Dave (South Park before South Park, really) and even Really and Truly, which I began to realise was just a comics version of the shallow, repetitive but ultimately fun rave music I was getting into at the time.  I honestly don't think Grant was trying to destroy 2000ad; rather just adding a bit of throwaway anarchy to British comics in the same way punk did with music.

Alec Worley is a fine writer but Zenith gets Grant his* extra points here.

Grant 4, Alec 1.

*Or their extra points, as I've just learned from Eamonn's latest podcast.

[IndigoPrime]

Big Dave (South Park before South Park, really) and even Really and Truly, which I began to realise was just a comics version of the shallow, repetitive but ultimately fun rave music I was getting into at the time.  I honestly don't think Grant was trying to destroy 2000ad; rather just adding a bit of throwaway anarchy to British comics in the same way punk did with music.

I'm not sure Big Dave aligns with South Park—at least, not early South Park. Big Dave was the thing it was aiming to satirise. It ended up repeatedly punching down. South Park started tending towards that only after years, when it believed its own press.

Also, I'm not sure Morrison and co. were attempting to destroy the comic per se but their angle at the time was to tear it all down, in the sense of what went before. They saw Wagner and co. as the establishment, and so went counter to that with an astonishingly arrogant "we know better" position. Thing is, that doesn't work unless what you create wows people to the point what went before looks comparatively poor.

We do very occasionally see that in 2000 AD, with series rethinks/reboots that show up the originals for the dated fare they were. Arguably, Savage is in that space. Rennie's Rogue Trooper universe work too. Morrison could potentially have done that with Dredd. But instead he argued the character was a one-dimensional dullard without even the nuance of a brainless action movie and portrayed the character in such a light.

To miss the point of a character to that degree isn't just disrespectful, but it's also piss-poor writing. It'd be like writing Superman as a psychopath because, hey, he's got big muscles and could do whatever he wants and so fuck history.

I still like Zenith a lot, and I have time for some of Morrison's subsequent output. We3 is a favourite. Invisibles is flawed and far too long, but frequently very smart indeed (with a superb central premise that feels very evergreen—and horribly apt in the current political climate). But he was always so full of himself in 2000 AD, without ever having the quality material to back that up. (Millar doubly so.)

[JayzusB.Christ]

To miss the point of a character to that degree isn't just disrespectful, but it's also piss-poor writing. It'd be like writing Superman as a psychopath because, hey, he's got big muscles and could do whatever he wants and so fuck history.

I still like Zenith a lot, and I have time for some of Morrison's subsequent output. We3 is a favourite. Invisibles is flawed and far too long, but frequently very smart indeed (with a superb central premise that feels very evergreen—and horribly apt in the current political climate). But he was always so full of himself in 2000 AD, without ever having the quality material to back that up. (Millar doubly so.)

Well, fair point about Dredd - I didn't mind Inferno at the time, mainly because it wasn't Garth Ennis (and I really hated Garth Ennis's Dredd).  It is kind of rubbish in hindsight, though.

Grant was a bit of a mouth in those days, and freely admits he styled himself on Morrissey.  Sadly Morrissey, while not being half the bellend he is today, was still a budding misanthropic egotist.  And later Grant tried to tell us he'd been an extroverted techno-punk the whole time; rewriting his own history in the same way that he says rape never featured in his works.  Dan Dare and the fictional version of Britney Spears might disagree there.

But Zenith, though.  It's brilliant.  It continues to amaze me and is still my favourite thing he's written for any company.

[broodblik]

But Zenith, though.  It's brilliant.  It continues to amaze me and is still my favourite thing he's written for any company.

I will second that !!!

[SmallBlueThing(Reborn)]

Why on Earth would you think I meant Watchmen? Try Captain Britain and Marvel(Miracle)Man.

SBT

[Colin YNWA]

But Zenith, though.  It's brilliant.  It continues to amaze me and is still my favourite thing he's written for any company.

I will second that !!!

Have you read his Animal Man run - you should read his Animal Man run. I mean I love Zenith, I love LOTS of the stuff Grant Morrison has written in the US (so of course not to be consider here!) and good as his 2000ad Superhero, good as so much of what he's done is, Animal Man is his zenith* it really is wonderful. Meta, original, thrilling and yet oh so human.

*I apologise for nothing. NOTHING.

[broodblik]

Nope I have not read Animal Man, will give it a shot

[IndigoPrime]

It's odd—I tried to get into Animal Man, but it never hooked me. I wonder how much you had to be there at the time. (I feel that somewhat about Watchmen. It's like punk. It rewrites the rules, but I'm not sure how much I care about it now, in the cold light of day.)

[JayzusB.Christ]

But Zenith, though.  It's brilliant.  It continues to amaze me and is still my favourite thing he's written for any company.

I will second that !!!

Have you read his Animal Man run - you should read his Animal Man run. I mean I love Zenith, I love LOTS of the stuff Grant Morrison has written in the US (so of course not to be consider here!) and good as his 2000ad Superhero, good as so much of what he's done is, Animal Man is his zenith* it really is wonderful. Meta, original, thrilling and yet oh so human.

*I apologise for nothing. NOTHING.

I have, yeah.  It's brilliant - the old [spoiler]breaking the fourth wall[/spoiler] thing wasn't anything new, even then, but Morrison made it special; in the same way that Alan Moore made 'it was all a dream' work perfectly in  Marvacleman (or whatever).

I still think I prefer Zenith to Animal Man though.  I didn't read the latter till my late 20s or even 30s, but I kind of grew up with Zenith, Peter St John, Ruby Fox and co, and they feel like old friends, even if they are spoiled, megalomaniacal and a universe-dominating dark god respectively.

[rogue69]

Grant Morrison 2- 3 Alec Worley

[Magnetica]

Zenith is a top five 2000AD thrill for me, so this is an easy

5 nil victory for Morrison.

I don't read any of his stuff outside of 2000AD so that all means nothing to me (oh Vienna).

As for not seeing it as rip off of Alan Moore, one reason for that is that I didn't read any of his non Prog stuff until years later. And frankly I much prefer Zenith to say Watchmen.