Wossat? Something you used to love sucks now, does it?
Well my entitled nerdy friend, welcome to the inaugural post in "It Shoulda Ended with..."
You don't have to explain your reasons. You don't even have to dislike the stuff that came afterward.
All you need to do is place your finger on the point that - if the story had ended there - the work would be much stronger, would hold up as timeless, undiluted, yadda yadda.
I'll kick us off with 10 at whimsical random:
Stat Wars - Episode VI
Bad Company - The Krool Heart
Nemesis the Warlock - Book IX
Daredevil - Born Again
Watchmen - Issue 12
Durham Red - The Empty Suns
The X-Files - Season 6
Slaine - The Horned God
Indiana Jones - The Last Crusade
The Dark Judges - Necropolis
Now; who's gonna be the first to mention Chaos Day?
Quote from: Link Prime on 13 August, 2019, 04:12:35 PM
Nemesis the Warlock - Book IX
This is the only one of your choices I disagree with - the saga would just stop dead, halfway through Nemesis and Torgue chasing each other through Time! The end of Book X was perfect - returning to the story with
Tubular Hells a few years ago was pointless though, and just diluted the original ending to no purpose.
CHOPPER: Song of the Surfer (obvious)
Robo-Hunter - Day of the Droids
Ace Trucking Co. - The Croakside Trip (even though I love the final story in the '89 annual)
Devlin Waugh - Innocence and Experience
Alien - Aliens
Dr Who - The End of Time
Quote from: Link Prime on 13 August, 2019, 04:12:35 PM
Now; who's gonna be the first to mention Chaos Day?
Like
Star Wars, I'm delighted for everyone who enjoys the More they're getting. But yeah.
Leigh suggested the other day that
Dredd would be better if it moved to the model of
Slaine,
Kingdom and
Brass Sun, only appearing in the comic when the original creator has an idea for a story then making way for other strips when that's done.
That seems ideal, but we know there's only one more Dredd story John Wagner
really wants to write.
Stranger Things should have been a one and done miniseries.
Jurassic Park - the first one is a perfect movie, while all the sequels are pretty much worthless. Never saw Fallen Kingdom.
Community should have ended with season 3 (after that it has its moments but the severe patchiness of later seasons and the existence of season 4 makes it a very hard show to recommend unreservedly. The season 3 finale also acts as a pretty good, if abrupt, ending to the show as a whole)
In total agreement about Star Wars - it took me until The Last Jedi to realise that I haven't actually truly enjoyed any of these films since Return of the Jedi and I was only going to see them because of nostalgia and successful marketing.
The Simpsons season 8-10 (take your pick, though if I could have it my way, season 8's 'Homer's Enemy' would have been the finale to the TV show, with any further Simpson adventures being released as theatrical movies.
The Dark Knight Returns (comic series) should have ended with the first one.
Modern Family - first 2 seasons were marvelous, then it immediately dropped off a cliff.
Parks and Rec is one of the great modern sitcoms, but I could have done without that bizarro, tacked-on final season. The whole thing reeks of a last minute season order when they thought they'd been cancelled.
Friends - say what you want about the show, but there's an undeniable drop in the quality of the writing after season 5, and the characters become increasingly Flanderised from that point out. I have a great nostalgic fondness for the early seasons, whereas the latter half of them feel like a different show.
Sex & the City - again, I'm sure there are a lot of haters, but the TV show is solid - great, even. Dated, yes, but what isn't? It's the spin off films that suck - they are like a dumbed down cartoon parody version of what people think the TV show is. The second movie especially is absolutely excruciating.
Quote from: Link Prime on 13 August, 2019, 04:12:35 PM
Daredevil - Born Again
Now these things are fun and shouldn't be take too seriously AND experience has taught me that Link Prime is a fine soul and all previous evidence says one who has good taste in comics.... you ready...
... you ready for it....
sure.... here it comes ...
BUT!!!By all the songs of importance and value have you lost your you mind man. Has your very soul been devoured by the dark creatures of the night.... what is this you say?!???!!!
If you end it there you get no Nocenti run, the finest run of them all UNLESS you think the Waid run is the greatest of them all that is also an acceptable answer. You also don't get the Bendis run, the Brubaker run which all have considerable merits. I refer the (previous thought to be) learned gentleman to the evidence.
https://forums.2000ad.com/index.php?topic=23298.0 (https://forums.2000ad.com/index.php?topic=23298.0)
Oh, oh breathe, breathe.... this may seem like an utter over reaction and a massive hissy fit comparible to those oh my 10 year old daughter when we take her mobile off her BUT ITS NOT ITS UTTERLY JUSTIFIED...
...it is...
...it really is...
I did think about making that same argument, Colin, but I thought you'd have more fun doing so.
Seems I was right!
Planet of the Apes should have ended with Chuck on his knees, crying his eyes out in the shadow of Liberty. Everything else, whilst often enjoyable, is entirely superfluous.
I think some things are the perfect length; Babylon 5, Farscape and The Shield spring to mind. Then there's things that are too short but might be the perfect length as well. Who's to say that Season Two of Firefly wouldn't have been utter folly or that Season Three of Sapphire and Steel would not have left us wanting more?
Ahem. Anyway, Planet of the Apes, "we blew it up, us bastards, and the apes took over because they were ace and we were shit." Boom. We get it. Move on.
Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 13 August, 2019, 08:24:37 PM
Who's to say that Season Two of Firefly wouldn't have been utter folly
We got the truncated version in
Serenity.
We did. But we didn't get a crap Season 2 inbetween or instead of, is what I'm saying. The film capped it off well, for me, a second or third season might have been a bit samey. Of course, they might have been aresome - but the very possibility of mediocre or rubbishy seasons of Firefly means I'm erring on the side of caution.
Quote from: Greg M. on 13 August, 2019, 06:45:48 PM
I did think about making that same argument, Colin, but I thought you'd have more fun doing so.
Seems I was right!
Well if ya going to do it, go BIG I say!
Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 13 August, 2019, 08:24:37 PM
Planet of the Apes should have ended with Chuck on his knees, crying his eyes out in the shadow of Liberty. Everything else, whilst often enjoyable, is entirely superfluous.
And you, you're just baiting me now ain't ya!
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 13 August, 2019, 08:51:34 PM
Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 13 August, 2019, 08:24:37 PM
Planet of the Apes should have ended with Chuck on his knees, crying his eyes out in the shadow of Liberty. Everything else, whilst often enjoyable, is entirely superfluous.
And you, you're just baiting me now ain't ya!
Pud 'em up, pud 'em uuuup...
QuoteI think some things are the perfect length; Babylon 5, Farscape and The Shield spring to mind. Then there's things that are too short but might be the perfect length as well. Who's to say that Season Two of Firefly wouldn't have been utter folly or that Season Three of Sapphire and Steel would not have left us wanting more?
I think a lot about
Freaks & Geeks, which I think is a phenomenal TV series (I'd rate it as one of my favourite of all time) that was senselessly cancelled after 1 season.
The final scene of season one is so bittersweet on a number of levels, and it always gets me to think what might have been. But then, as you say, further seasons might have not recaptured the magic, and maybe the show wouldn't be as celebrated as a result. Ditto
Spaced - I always felt gutted that they never made a third series, but maybe its best to leave it as it was?
There's something to be said for leaving people wanting more, especially in the age of endless sequels, prequels and reboots, where basically nothing mildly popular or successful is ever allowed to actually end without being eventually run into the ground. The idea that they'd call a successful franchise like Star Wars a day after three movies seems laughably quaint now.
Word.
Definitely Song of the Surfer and the Horned God.
And while nobody whatsoever is going to agree with me:
Strontium Dog: The Final Solution.
American Horror Story: Asylum.
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 13 August, 2019, 10:19:04 PM
Definitely Song of the Surfer and the Horned God.
And while nobody whatsoever is going to agree with me:
Strontium Dog: The Final Solution.
I'm honestly tempted to agree with you there - I never really cared for the latter day run of SD stories.
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 13 August, 2019, 10:19:04 PMStrontium Dog: The Final Solution.
If the majority of the art were different, I think there'd be more agreement on this.
Quote from: JOE SOAP on 13 August, 2019, 11:50:38 PM
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 13 August, 2019, 10:19:04 PMStrontium Dog: The Final Solution.
If the majority of the art were different, I think there'd be more agreement on this.
You mean The Final Solution? Or the latter Stront stuff?
Surprised nobody's mentioned Battlestar Galactica (original series or the reboot - both started off strong).
Quote from: radiator on 14 August, 2019, 12:25:49 AM
Quote from: JOE SOAP on 13 August, 2019, 11:50:38 PM
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 13 August, 2019, 10:19:04 PMStrontium Dog: The Final Solution.
If the majority of the art were different, I think there'd be more agreement on this.
You mean The Final Solution? Or the latter Stront stuff?
The Final Solution. Harrison's a great artist but not for the 'last' Johnny Alpha story.
I'm fine with the reboot, the resurrection and the final note the creators, and the story, go out on.
Quote from: sheridan on 14 August, 2019, 01:11:24 AM
Surprised nobody's mentioned Battlestar Galactica (original series or the reboot - both started off strong).
Apart from the odd bad episode –like the one that wasted Bill Duke as a gangster– I find the reboot still stands up very well from beginning to end. The only iffy thing is the intimation at the very end that [spoiler]Starbuck is a literal angel[/spoiler] and just disappears while someone's back is turned.
The recent Predators film was not very good. You could argue the first Predator film was the only movie in the franchise worth revisiting. Beyond that, it was diminishing returns for that series. Nostalgia is a bit of a trap; we yearn for the feelings those golden oldies gave us. But we forget that it's highly unlikely any writer or Director can recapture such lightning in a bottle. Think of all the characters 2000AD created and ask yourself how many of them live on from their original conception. Not too many, because like films they tend to belong in another time and place.
The Beatles - Love Me Do
Quote from: sheridan on 14 August, 2019, 11:39:47 AM
Quote from: norton canes on 14 August, 2019, 10:04:51 AM
The Beatles - Love Me Do
U2 - the 1980s.
I was then tempted to name a few other artists whose output has not been up to scratch since the eighties, then came to the realisation that a lot of singers and music groups have less than a decade of good work in them and it'd probably be easier to come up with some who persist (sometime having bad patches but later returning to form). David Bowie comes to mind - eighties and early nineties work not-so-good - most stuff either side of that much better!
Rogue Trooper - "To the ends of Nu Earth".
Although "War Machine" worked well as a reimagining in which case it should have ended there and definitely never Fleischer's run ...
Star Wars - Empire Strikes Back
Iron Maiden - Seventh Son of a Seventh Son
Terminator
Aliens
Predator
Raiders of the Lost Ark
Rocky
Robocop
Day of the Dead
The Godfather II
Quote from: shaolin_monkey on 14 August, 2019, 12:34:18 PM
Rocky
Shut up, old man. You had your shot, now give me mine. They want to keep me weak, keep me down; they don't want a man like me to comment because I'm not a puppet like that man up there ^
I'll debate you any time anywhere, but you ain't gonna see that. You don't fight no real man. Hey, woman; since your man got no heart, bring your pretty little self over to my apartment and I'll show you a
real man.
Quote from: Tjm86 on 14 August, 2019, 12:13:55 PM
Rogue Trooper - "To the ends of Nu Earth".
Although "War Machine" worked well as a reimagining in which case it should have ended there and definitely never Fleischer's run ...
I thought a few of the stories in the annual that year were promising (before the follow-ups made it into the prog).
Quote from: shaolin_monkey on 14 August, 2019, 12:34:18 PM
Iron Maiden - Seventh Son of a Seventh Son
A cut-off point that eliminates Final Frontier and Book of Souls is not one I can support!
Or A Matter of Life and Death, for that matter. Maiden are a great example of a band that absolutely should not stop, ever. :)
Hell, even Virtual XI has The Clansman on it. However...
Metallica - ...And Justice for All
Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 13 August, 2019, 08:24:37 PM
I think some things are the perfect length; Babylon 5, Farscape and The Shield spring to mind.
1 out of 3 ain't bad - The Shield and Farscape both went on too long IMO.
Progwise - Robohunter after Day of the Droids and Rogue Trooper afte he found the traitor gerneal
Robohunter after Verdus for me. They never recaptured that magic.
Police Academy after Assignment: Miami Beach
I always used to say after Verdus, but having re=-read them not so long ago, I found day of the Droids and The Filby case to be pretty good - it only really hit the skids when he moved to britCit
There are a lot of movies that shouldn't have had sequels.
Rocky and Predator have been mentioned already. I would add The Matrix, Rambo and Ghostbusters.
Terminator and Alien both had one good sequel, but they should've stopped there.
James Cameron is still threatening us with Avatar sequels. I read an interesting comment on Avatar recently. It did fantastically well at the box office but has had absolutely no impact on pop-culture at all. No one references it, not even Family Guy (which should have stopped when at was originally cancelled, same with Futurama).
One more thing: Every successful computer game. Once they get a hit the publishers just keep churning them out. They're still trying to make Sonic the Hedgehog games.
Quote from: Dandontdare on 14 August, 2019, 05:03:32 PM
I always used to say after Verdus, but having re=-read them not so long ago, I found day of the Droids and The Filby case to be pretty good - it only really hit the skids when he moved to britCit
I thought the Filby Case was set in Brit-Cit?
You may be right - I'm thinking of the robo-goonie cult story?
Quote from: JOE SOAP on 14 August, 2019, 01:13:49 AM
Quote from: radiator on 14 August, 2019, 12:25:49 AM
Quote from: JOE SOAP on 13 August, 2019, 11:50:38 PM
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 13 August, 2019, 10:19:04 PMStrontium Dog: The Final Solution.
If the majority of the art were different, I think there'd be more agreement on this.
You mean The Final Solution? Or the latter Stront stuff?
The Final Solution. Harrison's a great artist but not for the 'last' Johnny Alpha story.
I'm fine with the reboot, the resurrection and the final note the creators, and the story, go out on.
I liked Harrison on Stront. But it was Colin McNeil, at his absolute best, who ended it properly.
Anyway, Rambo should have ended with theach brilliant, Raoul-Moatesque First Blood. The next ones should have been a whole new franchise with a new Stallone character.
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 14 August, 2019, 06:05:28 PMI liked Harrison on Stront. But it was Colin McNeil, at his absolute best, who ended it properly.
Love McNeil at the end but too little too late for these eyes.
I would say Rocky also.
It's such a strange series - the first one is this really great, gritty standalone indie movie. Then even by the second one it changes tone really abruptly and starts to get really silly. I loved the original but honestly couldn't even get to the end of Rocky II.
Wouldn't trust a human that doesn't love Rockys (https://youtu.be/ds1bS_Wwphc?t=23) 1-4.
Drat, forgot Ghostbusters! Yep, agree, should have stopped there.
I find the lack of love for Predator 2 disturbing. It's every bit as good as the first. Every subsequent item can/should be forgotten.
My list would include:
Babylon 5: Season 4.
Jaws.
Star Trek IV
The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey.
Nemesis Book IV
and
Tremors
Totally agree on Jaws.
Quote from: TordelBack on 14 August, 2019, 09:06:28 PM
I find the lack of love for Predator 2 disturbing. It's every bit as good as the first.
Some people just don't recognise good
pussyface when they see it.
The Exorcist should've skipped one and gone straight to
Exorcist III/LegionBoth
RoboCop and
Ghostbusters are
subject to change but at the mo, yes, one-and-done.
American GraffitiA Christmas StoryDonnie DarkoRepo Man
It still makes me chuckle that they are right now working on the fourth attempt at Terminator 3. Maybe one day they'll get it right!
They're looking to beat A Star Is Born.
Funniest thing is after decades waiting, Cameron finally got the rights returned, then sold it straight back to the same studio who made the previous one – Skydance Media.
Cameron's a canny bugger.
All nerd franchises are poisoned chalices. There's the one huge exception of Marvel out there to keep everyone hoping they'll get lucky too, but even Star Wars fans are turning mardy.
Tolkien, Batman, Harry Potter, Aliens, Star Trek, Dr Who - nothing can survive social media's ability to let people who thought they would never get tired of talking about something find out that, actually, they can.
* Paradoxically, the fact, noted above, that Avatar completely fell out of the conversation almost instantly might be one factor in the favour of its sequels. Nobody's suffering from over-exposure to Avatar.
Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 13 August, 2019, 08:48:28 PMBut we didn't get a crap Season 2 inbetween or instead of, is what I'm saying. The film capped it off well, for me, a second or third season might have been a bit samey.
I dunno. Firefly/Serenity is a weird one. There is loads of groundwork done in that opening chunk of episodes, and there's so much scope. I wouldn't want Firefly CSI, but that could easily have done two or three seasons. Instead, we get the first half of season 1, and the finale of season 2 as a movie. However, if the comics really do show some of the stuff Joss Whedon was planning, perhaps it really was for the best. They are uniformly awful, and some of the explanations (like for Shepherd Book) are laughably dull and obvious.
Quote from: radiator on 13 August, 2019, 09:06:43 PMDitto Spaced - I always felt gutted that they never made a third series, but maybe its best to leave it as it was?
Spaced felt like it ended well. And there's always that extra bit at the end of the extended DVD set!
Has anyone mentioned Angel yet? That should have finished when the TV show did. The comic continuation was eye-poppingly bad.
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 14 August, 2019, 10:06:03 PM
However, if the comics really do show some of the stuff Joss Whedon was planning, perhaps it really was for the best. They are uniformly awful, and some of the explanations (like for Shepherd Book) are laughably dull and obvious.
Oh gawd so true.
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 14 August, 2019, 10:06:03 PM
I wouldn't want Firefly CSI, but that could easily have done two or three seasons. Instead, we get the first half of season 1, and the finale of season 2 as a movie. However, if the comics really do show some of the stuff Joss Whedon was planning, perhaps it really was for the best. They are uniformly awful, and some of the explanations (like for Shepherd Book) are laughably dull and obvious.
I'm going to stand up for the new Pak/McDaid run from BOOM because (although, yes, I work on it) it rewinds to the gap between the series and the movie and is terrific fun. I believe it has sign-off from Whedon (FWIW) and captures a lot of what I loved about the series. There's a running gag/pay-off in #8 that's basically perfect.
Quote from: TordelBack on 14 August, 2019, 09:06:28 PM
Nemesis Book IV
Lose Nemesis Bks V and VI?! You appear to have gone completely insane and should report to Mel-Quake forthwith.
QuoteSpaced felt like it ended well. And there's always that extra bit at the end of the extended DVD set!
It doesn't end on a cliffhanger or anything, but nor does it feel like it has a proper
ending ending either, and there was definitely plenty of scope for a third season. I believe they always wanted/intended to do one, and were talking about it even as recently as a few years ago, but eventually the iron went cold. I definitely wouldn't want them to bring it back now.
Quote from: Greg M. on 14 August, 2019, 10:41:04 PM
Quote from: TordelBack on 14 August, 2019, 09:06:28 PM
Nemesis Book IV
Lose Nemesis Bks V and VI?!
I could live without them. Apart from the Freck Heresy and some truly glorious HIcklenton art I don't think the series had much that grabbed me after Gothic Empire: and certainly nothing that scaled the heights of Bks I-III. Thoth, Purity, the Time Wastes, time travel, Satanus and the Warriors... nah, diminishing returns.
Heresy! Nemesis V and VI were brilliant. The best books in the series!
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 14 August, 2019, 10:27:03 PMI'm going to stand up for the new Pak/McDaid run from BOOM
Ah. Not read those – just the ones mostly by 'other Whedon'. It feels like 'main Whedon' should have done as he did with Buffy and at least plotted from the end of S01 through to Serenity. That could have been great. Instead, what we got was all over the place in tone, and with some dire resolutions. I'll perhaps check out the Boom stuff.
Quote from: Greg M. on 14 August, 2019, 10:41:04 PM
Quote from: TordelBack on 14 August, 2019, 09:06:28 PM
Nemesis Book IV
Lose Nemesis Bks V and VI?! You appear to have gone completely insane and should report to Mel-Quake forthwith.
QFT
Quote from: radiator on 14 August, 2019, 11:24:59 PMIt doesn't end on a cliffhanger or anything, but nor does it feel like it has a proper ending ending either, and there was definitely plenty of scope for a third season. I believe they always wanted/intended to do one, and were talking about it even as recently as a few years ago, but eventually the iron went cold. I definitely wouldn't want them to bring it back now.
Likewise. Series from the distant past need to stay there – and especially comedies. All this talk about dredging up Blackadder just gives me the heebie-jeebies. As for Spaced, I'm not sure they ever really seriously thought about doing more, once a little time had passed. I do recall Americans trying to do a version, whitewashing Hynes entirely, and Pegg/Wright then releasing an angry joint statement (and doing interviews) that made their thoughts on that very clear.
As for series 2, I thought it ended well. Little was left dangling. (Possibly, [spoiler]Brian and Twist, but then that single shot with Twist made you think there was probably hope for some kind of future for them[/spoiler].)
I did like Pegg's line (from 2013) on revisiting Spaced: "Whenever we get asked about... another series of Spaced... one of the reasons we're not going to do it is because we couldn't possibly write it with any degree of truth now, because that's not where we are or who we are any more. I always find it's better to write from a perspective of truth."
Red Dwarf.
After series 6, and the departure of Rob Grant, it's been diminishing returns ever since.
Always nice to see the boys back onscreen, and there's been ome cracking bits here and there, for sure, but never quite as good as it's heyday.
I dunno. I didn't much like VII or VIII (it became more sf than comedy), and Back to Earth was atrocious. But I enjoyed X, and thought in many ways XI and XII were a return to form. Arguably, the real problem was the BBC sitting on the show (or ignoring it) for so long, for no obvious reason other than someone senior hated sf.
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 15 August, 2019, 09:53:15 AM
As for Spaced, I'm not sure they ever really seriously thought about doing more, once a little time had passed. I do recall Americans trying to do a version, whitewashing Hynes entirely, and Pegg/Wright then releasing an angry joint statement (and doing interviews) that made their thoughts on that very clear.
Am I missing something? I thought Jessica Hynes was white in the first place?
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 15 August, 2019, 10:56:52 AM
I dunno. I didn't much like VII or VIII (it became more sf than comedy), and Back to Earth was atrocious. But I enjoyed X, and thought in many ways XI and XII were a return to form. Arguably, the real problem was the BBC sitting on the show (or ignoring it) for so long, for no obvious reason other than someone senior hated sf.
The usual problem with the BBC, seen time and time again (even when they're producing world class TV SF).
Quote from: karlos on 15 August, 2019, 10:23:31 AM
Red Dwarf.
After series 6, and the departure of Rob Grant, it's been diminishing returns ever since.
Always nice to see the boys back onscreen, and there's been ome cracking bits here and there, for sure, but never quite as good as it's heyday.
I look at it this way – is anything from the resurgent RD equal to or better than anything from classic RD (series 1-6)? And the answer is... yes. Episodes like 'The Beginning', 'Mechocracy' and 'M-Corp' stand tall with the best of them.
Back to Earth is mostly awful, but the final part was oddly affecting, and very nearly redeemed it.
I agree that XI and XII are better (the ideas are still there), but it seems, to me, to lack a certain magic that I-VI had.
Quote from: sheridan on 15 August, 2019, 11:10:41 AMAm I missing something? I thought Jessica Hynes was white in the first place?
Whitewashing in the sense of ignoring her existence and having been instrumental in the original. Spaced in the McG version was presented as something by the two blokes who did Shaun of the Dead.
Quote from: Greg M. on 15 August, 2019, 11:14:29 AMI look at it this way – is anything from the resurgent RD equal to or better than anything from classic RD (series 1-6)? And the answer is... yes. Episodes like 'The Beginning', 'Mechocracy' and 'M-Corp' stand tall with the best of them.
To my mind, series 1 and 6 are spottier than the most recent two. Doug Naylor does have a tendency to recycle a bit much, but the series is a lot better now it's not trying to be a low-budget Blade Runner.
Quote from: sheridan on 15 August, 2019, 09:50:10 AM
Quote from: Greg M. on 14 August, 2019, 10:41:04 PM
Quote from: TordelBack on 14 August, 2019, 09:06:28 PM
Nemesis Book IV
Lose Nemesis Bks V and VI?! You appear to have gone completely insane and should report to Mel-Quake forthwith.
QFT
The degree of contrary consensus here indicates that a re-read is warranted. But if I have to look at those flared shoulderpads for two whole books, coupled with the Monad/Primord nonsense, I may not return in the best of moods...
Quote from: karlos on 15 August, 2019, 10:23:31 AM
Red Dwarf.
After series 6, and the departure of Rob Grant, it's been diminishing returns ever since.
Always nice to see the boys back onscreen, and there's been ome cracking bits here and there, for sure, but never quite as good as it's heyday.
I was tempted to say Red Dwarf but couldn't decide where the cut off point should be. If I was being really harsh I'd say after series 2. I really like those early low budget pre Kryten episodes (Thanks for the Memory is probably my favourite episode). Series 3-5 are still really good throughout, then it hit a bit of a downward slide. I've really enjoyed the later series on Dave though. It's still the best TV sci fi comedy by miles (let's forget Hyperdrive ever happened).
QuoteSeries from the distant past need to stay there – and especially comedies.
Yeah. I'm struggling to think of any revivals of popular TV shows that were actually worthwhile.
In some cases such as Arrested Development, Only Fools and Horses and The Royle Family, the dreadful later seasons/episodes actually tarnish the memory of what were decent if not great shows in their day.
Quote from: Frank on 14 August, 2019, 10:03:14 PM
All nerd franchises are poisoned chalices.
(https://i.imgur.com/UZ83p3C.png?2)
Only Fools and Horses was long past its best way before the end, but the Christmas trilogy was a decent wrap-up – which they then ruined with the subsequent three specials. Also, Porridge got resurrected. God knows why. I never realised that Goodnight Sweetheart (another show that should have ended long before it became a parody of itself) had a special, too, albeit only as a one-off.
I'm wondering how many revivals do work. Would Outnumbered count? Although that's only had one new episode since they finished the fifth series. (Also, rarely, that to my mind is a show that was consistently solid throughout.)
Quote from: TordelBack on 15 August, 2019, 01:03:57 PM
Quote from: sheridan on 15 August, 2019, 09:50:10 AM
Quote from: Greg M. on 14 August, 2019, 10:41:04 PM
Quote from: TordelBack on 14 August, 2019, 09:06:28 PM
Nemesis Book IV
Lose Nemesis Bks V and VI?! You appear to have gone completely insane and should report to Mel-Quake forthwith.
QFT
The degree of contrary consensus here indicates that a re-read is warranted. But if I have to look at those flared shoulderpads for two whole books, coupled with the Monad/Primord nonsense, I may not return in the best of moods...
The two Hicklenton Nemesi were bloody brilliant; stand-out 2000ad moments for me. Very different in tone from previous books. I read them as a kid but most certainly wouldn't have been allowed to if my parents had had a flick through them. I still shudder to remember how Nemesis dealt with Torquemada's Oy Boys.
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 13 August, 2019, 06:34:00 PM
Quote from: Link Prime on 13 August, 2019, 04:12:35 PM
Daredevil - Born Again
By all the songs of importance and value have you lost your you mind man. Has your very soul been devoured by the dark creatures of the night.... what is this you say?!???!!!
Matthew Murdock, attorney at law, speaking for the defense:
"My client has informed me that he recently re-read the entirety of Miller's work over a short time period.
It can, in no uncertain circumstances, be justifiably claimed that this body of work is the definitive take on the character.
While subsequent work by different authors has produced some fine examples of periodic comic strip, my client prefers to imagine a tangent fictional universe wherein the protagonist walked into the sunset at the end of this specific arc - born again in mind and body."
Quote from: sheridan on 15 August, 2019, 09:50:10 AM
Quote from: Greg M. on 14 August, 2019, 10:41:04 PM
Quote from: TordelBack on 14 August, 2019, 09:06:28 PM
Nemesis Book IV
Lose Nemesis Bks V and VI?! You appear to have gone completely insane and should report to Mel-Quake forthwith.
QFT
I think Tordel hit a carbon monoxide pipe the other evening with this spade.
As for myself; Nemesis Book X initially bamboozled me with its damn fine artwork, but it doesn't hold up to the previous work. It did have a fitting ending, but as mentioned, even that's been since undone.
To be fair Nemesis Book X's main achievement was to cement Henry's reputation as being among the best the prog has ever had. He even outshone Kev O'Neill in that particular story.
Apart from that it was a fairly shoddy rehashing of past glories, something that Pat was doing in Sláine around the same time.
Quote from: Link Prime on 16 August, 2019, 10:23:33 AM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 13 August, 2019, 06:34:00 PM
Quote from: Link Prime on 13 August, 2019, 04:12:35 PM
Daredevil - Born Again
By all the songs of importance and value have you lost your you mind man. Has your very soul been devoured by the dark creatures of the night.... what is this you say?!???!!!
Matthew Murdock, attorney at law, speaking for the defense:
"My client has informed me that he recently re-read the entirety of Miller's work over a short time period.
It can, in no uncertain circumstances, be justifiably claimed that this body of work is the definitive take on the character.
While subsequent work by different authors has produced some fine examples of periodic comic strip, my client prefers to imagine a tangent fictional universe wherein the protagonist walked into the sunset at the end of this specific arc - born again in mind and body."
Arh very clever, evoking the spirit of Daredevil alter-ego Matt Murdock to defend your claim. That leaves me tempted to develop some elaborate Fiskesque plan to expliot your weaknesses, draw your into my world and then crush you under my gargantuan fist of criminal genius leaving you brutally exposed and vulernable and this time making sure we check for the body in the taxi...
.... but I'm pushed for time so...
...Your defense smells of poo.
Bad Company ends perfectly with [spoiler]the escape from Ararat.[/spoiler] Everything afterwards detracts from the impact of the original series ending, IMO.
While I enjoy modern ABC Warriors, mainly because of Clint's masterful artwork, I think the saga could of wrapped up nicely with their retirement at the end of Khronicals of Khaos.
Non 2000AD.
Transformers films should have ended with the 80's animated movie.
The Alien and Terminator films both peaked at number 2. Predator 2 is a great film, almost as good as the first.
The Conservative Party should have just stopped years ago.
Cheers
Have to agree with the comment saying Iron Maiden should never stop.
You could say they went through a dodgy patch for 12 years after the master piece was that was 7th Son of a 7th Son, but since 2000 the quality they have maintained is truly remarkable. A Brave New World, Dance of Death, A Matter of Life and Death, The Final Frontier and the Book of Souls are every bit as good as their 80s classics.
Quote from: Magnetica on 16 August, 2019, 01:28:56 PM
Have to agree with the comment saying Iron Maiden should never stop.
You could say they went through a dodgy patch for 12 years after the master piece was that was 7th Son of a 7th Son, but since 2000 the quality they have maintained is truly remarkable. A Brave New World, Dance of Death, A Matter of Life and Death, The Final Frontier and the Book of Souls are every bit as good as their 80s classics.
Yup.
Amazing on stage, putting out cracking albums and with seemingly no plans to stop! Long may it continue.
Quote from: NapalmKev on 16 August, 2019, 01:04:05 PM
Bad Company ends perfectly with [spoiler]the escape from Ararat.[/spoiler] Everything afterwards detracts from the impact of the original series ending, IMO.
I cannot agree - BkII completes Danny's journey beautifully. It is the perfect, logical continuation and conclusion. Also, there's the small detail of 'The Krool Heart' being the best thing 2000AD ever published.
And speaking of all that is glorious and enriching to the human soul: Iron Maiden...
Quote from: Rately on 16 August, 2019, 01:37:24 PM
Amazing on stage, putting out cracking albums and with seemingly no plans to stop! Long may it continue.
I think realistically, we may get one more studio album from 'em - though if it never happens, The Book of Souls is a great way to bow out. As I've noted earlier, even the 90s records have their moments - the fact that Bruce chose The Sign of the Cross (from an album he didn't appear on) for their most recent setlist is very telling.
Quote from: TordelBack on 14 August, 2019, 09:06:28 PM
Babylon 5: Season 4.
Only acceptable if the real last epsiode is included.
Quote from: NapalmKev on 16 August, 2019, 01:04:05 PMTransformers films should have ended with the 80's animated movie.
Quite possibly, although I enjoyed Transformers (despite some cringeworthy moments), and Bumblebee was actually an objectively solid film – far better than it had any right to be.
As for music, how about The Cure and Disintegration (both the album AND the song on that album).
The Bible, Genesis: a mad opening and then it just drags on and on. Parable after parable, letter after letter - and that whole New Testament is just flogging a crucified savior.
Graham Linehan: should have stopped writing just prior to filling out the account set up page of Twitter.
Red Razors: just after the 's' in 'Razors'.
---
Robo-Hunter ends well with "Farewell, My Billions". It's all perspective - starting my weekly order with prog 178, both Verdus and Day of the Droids were just historical thrills. So, when he moved to Brit-Cit in prog 259. that for me was the real Robo-Hunter.
I didn't really enjoy Football Crazy (because of a lack of interest in football) or Play It Again, Sam (because I found the musical references inaccessible - I'd probably like it more now with 'Net access), but they're book-ended by stronger stuff.
Imagine if some 2000 AD stories started with the last ever chapters and worked backwards. Verdus would be a great way for Sam Slade to bow out. We'd all be pining for the days of John Hicklenton's Nemesis artwork, bemoaning this new Kevin O'Neill guy. Anderson and Slaine would just get better and better.
Smiley should have ended with Trifecta.
Skip tracer should have ended after the first series.
Harry Potter should have ended with Deathly Hallows.
I was a fan of the original books and films, but these Fantastic Beasts movies and weird stage play semi sequels have lost me (and the majority of people, I suspect).
Never mind Rowling's slightly weird habit of retconning stuff after the fact, or 'revealing' what happened to the characters after the books ended.
None of the Pixar movies should have had sequels - with the exception of Toy Story, all of which are excellent.
Rowling's lost me with Fantastic Beasts. That second movie left so little impression. It was just... dull. The Harry Potter movies are quite pedestrian in direction but at least they have interesting stories and characters. Plus they don't get all confused about nazis.
Quote from: radiator on 16 August, 2019, 06:03:17 PM
Harry Potter should have ended with Deathly Hallows.
The appeal of Harry Potter was and is a perpetual mystery to me. There was absolutely nothing original in it, just a bizarre melange of Blyton's Mallory Towers and pretty much every fantasy trope ever written. The characters ranged from the banal to the two dimensional, the prose was only a minor step above Mills and Boon. I know I'm in the minority on this and millions of people would disagree (hell, some would even take me out in the streets and stone me for such heresy) but the only thing the films had over the books is that they had better pictures.
My wife adores the books. I'll admit I gave up when I saw book four, and the movies ranged from deeply impressive (Cuarón's Azkaban) to the borderline unwatchable (Newell's Goblet of Boredom). As for the films, I'm not a rabid fan, but I enjoyed them (bar Goblet) on a recent rewatch, but can't imagine ever sitting through either Fantastic Beasts again – nor any further films in that series.
I have the same feeling about the superhero movies. We are gonna be flooded with millions of movies and mostly struggle to find something that is a stand-out. I can see that systemically that the MCU will be moving that direction especially now that the original characters are no more.
Quote from: broodblik on 16 August, 2019, 08:02:08 PM
I have the same feeling about the superhero movies. We are gonna be flooded with millions of movies and mostly struggle to find something that is a stand-out. I can see that systemically that the MCU will be moving that direction especially now that the original characters are no more.
When Marvel started pitching the sequels to their origin story films as comedies, political thrillers* and horror movies, I realised their plan.
One day, all movies will be Marvel movies.
They're going to do the same to movies as they did to comics (https://www.challenge.org/knowledgeitems/the-dangers-of-monoculture-farming/); whatever story you want to tell, you'll need to stick a (Marvel) superhero in it to get it made.
* Nobody makes comedies or thrillers anymore. Nobody who wants to make money, anyway
-shakes head sadly at Potter detractors-
Kids' books, and perfectly entertaining ones - comparison to Mallory Towers is not necessarily derogatory. No-one forces adults to read them (except aloud), there are many other book choices available. The movies are a mixed bag but generally ok, the last one was indeed muddled and oddly paced, but see above.
I've re-read Nemesis Book V, and I still think it's a big step down from IV and definitely from the first three. The Freck stuff is very good, but the daft (and IIRC never resolved) 'resurrection' of Torquemada, the past lives stuff, Magna's bikini, the offhand murder of Grobbendonk, Satanus and the ABC Warriors cluttering up the place... it's not terrible, but nor is it TorqueArmada or the Brick Moon or kindly spider gaolers (shades of Brexit there).
I'll push on with the rest in the cause of fairness, but so far I'm happy to maintain that the first 4 books stand on their own as pure classics.
The HIcklenton stuff is a breath of fresh crazy, agreed, but there's a lot of other dross yet to come...
Bah! Bk V remains my absolute favourite Nemesis yarn. My ranking (off the top of my head, subject to change in the cold light of day)... V, I, VI, TtG, IV, IX, VII, III, II, VIII, X.
Edited to clarify: I should add, VIII and X are the only books I'm not that fond of, all the rest are good / great / brilliant to varying degrees.
Part of my problem with Books V & VI seems to be the Warriors. All these long years have shown that Getting The Gang Together is pretty much the only viable ABC Warriors plotline, which is why Pat uses it to excess, and Book IV's version is arguably the best one of all - but after that, they're just in the way. Pat even sees this, dismissing their sole perfunctory 2-page action scene in Book V with "Right that's finished, back to the ship".
Worse, their transformation from decaying relics of the lost age of technology to Nemesis' goon squad seems to SciFi up the joint in a Time Killer sort of way - gone are the unique techno-medieval and (rather less unique) steam-punk stylings of earlier books, now everyone has laser guns and fancy robots and spacetimeships. Nemesis is wearing cargo pants now FFS.
I enjoy the Grand Dragon, the Arch Bigot, Nostradamus and all the Torque-Tat, but the Thanosing of Torquemada himself is just a terrible cop-out - as is Magna's off-hand comeuppance.
I will admit that I was o'er-hasty saying Nemesis should have ended after Book IV - there's too much good stuff in there yet - but I do think it needed to be better than it was to keep up with the tone and originality of the first chunk.
QuoteThere was absolutely nothing original in it, just a bizarre melange of Blyton's Mallory Towers and pretty much every fantasy trope ever written.
And that's a bad thing.... why, exactly?
Rowling has weaknesses as a storyteller - the later books are bloated and really needed tighter editing and the central mysteries of each book in the series are very convoluted and the payoffs/resolutions thereof tend to borderline gibberish. The appeal of the books for me is all in the characters, setting and tone - there's something comforting and almost nostalgic about them. The worldbuilding is also quite ingenious at times, as is the way the themes and narratives gradually mature with each book - it grew up with its audience in the same way Judge Dredd did.
Quote from: radiator on 16 August, 2019, 09:38:17 PM
QuoteThere was absolutely nothing original in it, just a bizarre melange of Blyton's Mallory Towers and pretty much every fantasy trope ever written.
And that's a bad thing.... why, exactly?
Rowling has weaknesses as a storyteller - the later books are bloated and really needed tighter editing and the central mysteries of each book in the series are very convoluted and the payoffs/resolutions thereof tend to borderline gibberish. The appeal of the books for me is all in the characters, setting and tone - there's something comforting and almost nostalgic about them. The worldbuilding is also quite ingenious at times, as is the way the themes and narratives gradually mature with each book - it grew up with its audience in the same way Judge Dredd did.
Yup.
Quote from: radiator on 16 August, 2019, 09:38:17 PM
The appeal of the books for me is all in the characters, setting and tone - there's something comforting and almost nostalgic about them.
Indeed - my favourite bits are always the day-to-day joys and trials and friendships and rivalries that comprise termly life at Hogwarts, the soil through which the roots of the grand plot grow and are nurtured.
Quote from: Tjm86 on 16 August, 2019, 07:44:49 PM
Quote from: radiator on 16 August, 2019, 06:03:17 PM
Harry Potter should have ended with Deathly Hallows.
The appeal of Harry Potter was and is a perpetual mystery to me. There was absolutely nothing original in it, just a bizarre melange of Blyton's Mallory Towers and pretty much every fantasy trope ever written. The characters ranged from the banal to the two dimensional, the prose was only a minor step above Mills and Boon. I know I'm in the minority on this and millions of people would disagree (hell, some would even take me out in the streets and stone me for such heresy) but the only thing the films had over the books is that they had better pictures.
I am currently reading the Harry Potter books (which I like) to my son. We also read and listen to a lot of Roald Dahl. The difference in the language is striking to me. Dahl's is like the finest quality chocolate melting in your mouth, where as JK Rowling's language just isn't and indeed doesn't always seem grammatically correct. She is also, oddly to me, very fond of the word "dully" as in "Harry said dully".
Quote from: Magnetica on 16 August, 2019, 10:55:21 PM
JK Rowling ... is also ... very fond of the word "dully" as in "Harry said dully".
Read enough
A Song of Ice and Fire books and you'll wonder if they ever serve anything other than "trenchers of bread" in Westeros.
See also
The Belgariad and
The Mallorean, where you'll soon tire of "pennants snapping in the wind", as they do with what seems to be an increasing frequency. Couldn't the pennants have drooped limply on a windless day just once? (Or just not been mentioned.)
Harry Potter is one of those stories which I did not even exists if it wasn't for the movies. Enjoyed when it lasted but not something I will remember as being a classic.
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 16 August, 2019, 05:18:29 PM
Quote from: Link Prime on 16 August, 2019, 01:16:17 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 16 August, 2019, 12:53:06 PM
...Your defense smells of poo.
HA! BRILLIANT.
Okay now this is getting ridiculous. I promise this meant to be an arrogant self quote with me saying 'Brilliant' to my own post. I was meant to be saying BRILLIANT! to the picture from Link Prime, but it didn't copy across in the quote???
Sigh my typos now include missing out whole pictures, not just letters and words!
Quote from: JamesC on 15 August, 2019, 04:09:46 PM
I was tempted to say Red Dwarf but couldn't decide where the cut off point should be. If I was being really harsh I'd say after series 2. I really like those early low budget pre Kryten episodes (Thanks for the Memory is probably my favourite episode). Series 3-5 are still really good throughout, then it hit a bit of a downward slide. I've really enjoyed the later series on Dave though. It's still the best TV sci fi comedy by miles (let's forget Hyperdrive ever happened).
I remember when the titles to series three aired that it wasn't as good as the first two series - still watcheable, but everything that has come after is just not as good. Having said that, the last series I watched was better than the ones that had immediatley preceded it. I'd still watch every episode in a marathon (including Can't Smeg Won't Smeg).
Quote from: JamesC on 15 August, 2019, 04:09:46 PM
It's still the best TV sci fi comedy by miles (let's forget Hyperdrive ever happened).
p.s. hey, I liked Hyperdrive!
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 15 August, 2019, 07:21:10 PM
I'm wondering how many revivals do work. Would Outnumbered count? Although that's only had one new episode since they finished the fifth series. (Also, rarely, that to my mind is a show that was consistently solid throughout.)
Whatever Happened to the Likely Lads? Though I'm not sure if it counts as a revival - how long was the gap between that and The Likely Lads.
Quote from: Funt Solo on 16 August, 2019, 03:23:33 PM
The Bible, Genesis: a mad opening and then it just drags on and on. Parable after parable, letter after letter - and that whole New Testament is just flogging a crucified savior.
Revelations had it's moments - it's just there's a few books in betwee that aren't much cop!
Quote from: Funt Solo on 17 August, 2019, 04:00:14 AM
Read enough A Song of Ice and Fire books ....
I seem to recall talk of a prize draw for anyone who could stay awake past the first book. I've hung on to the copy I tried for the next time I get a bout of insomnia ...
[Having incited the Harry's Inquisition with my views on the works of J.K. Rowling, now to double down with the current fantasy bette-noir ...]
Starship Troopers - The first film is one my all-time favourites and it's been dross all the way down ever since
Critters 2 - Loved the first 2 then it drops off a cliff
Halloween 3 - Halloween 2 isn't great but if it had ended with 2, we wouldn't have got 3
Once upon a time I would've said Red Dwarf should've definitely ended with series 6 but they've got better recently...
Definitely agree with Tordelback that Predator 2 is great "You can't see the eyes of the demon, until 'im come callin..". I like Robocop 2 too, neither are as good as their predecessor but great fun all the same. Fingers crossed the new Robocop is any cop (heyooo), I know Blomkamp just exited it I just don't know if that's a good thing
I would like a sequel to Serial Mom.
There should be a rival thread to this one: 'It shoulda carried on with...'
Is this thread still going? It shoulda ended with post no. 1.
Quote from: GrudgeJohnDeed on 18 August, 2019, 12:07:26 AMStarship Troopers - The first film is one my all-time favourites and it's been dross all the way down ever since
Fortunately, like Donnie Darko, there is only one Starship Troopers film. It would have been horrible had they shat out a pointless low-budget sequel.
I'm still having trouble believing there's a sequel to Donnie Darko.
Quote from: TordelBack on 18 August, 2019, 11:36:53 AMI'm still having trouble believing there's a sequel to Donnie Darko.
Well, there isn't. There's a director's cut, but there most definitely totally isn't a sequel. (Related: please do not go looking for "Donnie Darko sequel" on the internet.)
Quote from: GrudgeJohnDeed on 18 August, 2019, 12:07:26 AM
Critters 2 - Loved the first 2 then it drops off a cliff
Not a fan of Leonardo di Caprio then?
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 18 August, 2019, 10:59:13 AM
Quote from: GrudgeJohnDeed on 18 August, 2019, 12:07:26 AMStarship Troopers - The first film is one my all-time favourites and it's been dross all the way down ever since
Fortunately, like Donnie Darko, there is only one Starship Troopers film. It would have been horrible had they shat out a pointless low-budget sequel.
The ur-example of low-budget sequels to fondly remembered films: Never Ending Story :-)
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 18 August, 2019, 11:46:44 AM
Quote from: TordelBack on 18 August, 2019, 11:36:53 AMI'm still having trouble believing there's a sequel to Donnie Darko.
Well, there isn't. There's a director's cut, but there most definitely totally isn't a sequel. (Related: please do not go looking for "Donnie Darko sequel" on the internet.)
Wow I never knew there was a sequel to Donnie Darko. How it that sneek out. I almost want to watch this out of morbid curiousity?.... Almost...
I'm still not entirely convinced that Blade Runner needed a sequel. The world-building was interesting but the storyline wasn't half as thought-provoking and concise as the original. Also wasn't entirely happy to see Harrison Ford [spoiler]growing old[/spoiler]; unless I've misremembered something that explains things, it kind of takes away from the question of his humanity or lack thereof.
Quote from: sheridan on 18 August, 2019, 07:53:17 PM
Not a fan of Leonardo di Caprio then?
:D as it happens, I'm actually not the biggest fan! He's fine.
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 18 August, 2019, 08:39:15 PMAlso wasn't entirely happy to see Harrison Ford [spoiler]growing old[/spoiler]; unless I've misremembered something that explains things, it kind of takes away from the question of his humanity or lack thereof.
Weren't the replicants biological and capable of [spoiler]growing old[/spoiler] if the designer so wished? I get confused on the rules of Bladerunner..
According to the film lore, the Replicants were [spoiler]essentially indistinguishable from humans, bar a few tiny anomalies, and the ageing thing was a failsafe that could be removed[/spoiler]. I don't recall how the book positioned things.
To my mind, Blade Runner falls between two camps. The sequel was unnecessary, but for me didn't impact negatively on the original. I suspect that third category exists for quite a few films. (There are relatively few, though, that with the sequel meaningfully improve the series as a whole. For every Mad Max, there are dozens of "why did you do thats".)
Yeah I got the impression that they [spoiler]aren't really androids in the robotics sense, they're living beings grown in labs from modified human DNA, and that makes the way they're used and treated even more horrifying. They're human slaves bred to be used like machines. I feel like a lot of other cyberpunk media inspired by Blade Runner takes the concept and makes them full-on stealth robots (like the videogame Snatcher). [/spoiler]
I loved the new one, it could've been trimmed in a couple of places but it was a great film overall.
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 19 August, 2019, 10:54:41 AM
According to the film lore, the Replicants were [spoiler]essentially indistinguishable from humans, bar a few tiny anomalies, and the ageing thing was a failsafe that could be removed[/spoiler]. I don't recall how the book positioned things.
Was that in the first film? It's been a while. I would have thought that if that had been the case, the replicants' first priority would have been to find their maker and get the failsafe removed. Or is that what they were doing? Like I said, it's been a while.
One for the 'things that went over your head' thread, but I recently realised how important the 'time to die' catchphrase was. It wasn't just an Arnie-style tough-guy soundbite but the [spoiler]entire driving force in the mind of a rogue replicant. The only thing that spurred them on was the terrible knowledge of their impending time to die. [/spoiler]
++SPOILER WARNING++
The need for the Voight-Kampff test was to distinguish a Nexus-6 replicant ("More human than human!") from a human being.
Roy Batty and his comrades were attempting to find out how to remove the failsafe, but ultimately discovered it was impossible. Time to die.
Yep. Removing it killed them.
Ah, I see. I misremembered it as a revenge mission. Thanks guys; really must get round to a re-watch.
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 19 August, 2019, 10:14:45 PM
Ah, I see. I misremembered it as a revenge mission. Thanks guys; really must get round to a re-watch.
Once he accepted that he [spoiler]would die[/spoiler], Roy Batty [spoiler]did take revenge[/spoiler], but that wasn't the impetus behind returning to Earth.
At least we'll have bendy bananas. (https://youtu.be/uovt1sC3rtM)
Edit: which I meant to post in the politics thread. Ah well. It's here now.
Getting myself back on topic...
A.B.C. Warriors, Khronicles Of Khaos [Book I] - it's the last time it was fun.
Ace Trucking Co., The Croakside Trip (but skipping Stoop Coop Soup, On The Dangle & Strike).
Bad Company: can end perfectly well at the first series. The second does offer something, but it's really a very different story. It's no longer future war. (This is okay, because Alien and Aliens offer very different stories: the first is a horror story and the second is an action movie.) All after The Krool Heart seems superfluous (but I haven't read beyond 2014).
Flesh, Book II
Sinister Dexter, Now & Again
Skizz, Alan Moore
Quote from: Funt Solo on 20 August, 2019, 02:07:42 AM
At least we'll have bendy bananas. (https://youtu.be/uovt1sC3rtM)
Edit: which I meant to post in the politics thread. Ah well. It's here now.
To be fair, Brexit really should have ended with that, on people thinking "if that's the sole benefit of this thing, and even that is bullshit anyway, let's ditch this ridiculous idea".
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 19 August, 2019, 10:54:41 AM
According to the film lore, the Replicants were [spoiler]essentially indistinguishable from humans, bar a few tiny anomalies, and the ageing thing was a failsafe that could be removed[/spoiler]. I don't recall how the book positioned things.
To my mind, Blade Runner falls between two camps. The sequel was unnecessary, but for me didn't impact negatively on the original. I suspect that third category exists for quite a few films. (There are relatively few, though, that with the sequel meaningfully improve the series as a whole. For every Mad Max, there are dozens of "why did you do thats".)
I thought that, while a good film in its own right, it did impact negatively on the first film.
[spoiler]One of the central themes of the original is whether the replicants are actually alive or whether they just 'think' they're alive - that's what makes it thought provoking and philosohical. Once you've established replicants can procreate biologically it pretty much answers that question.[/spoiler]
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 18 August, 2019, 08:39:15 PM
Also wasn't entirely happy to see Harrison Ford [spoiler]growing old[/spoiler]; unless I've misremembered something that explains things, it kind of takes away from the question of his humanity or lack thereof.
I find that the question of Deckard literally being a
replicant, or not, is not in itself a particularly interesting loose-end nor the point, as Ridley Scott continues to argue.
The question for me is
can a human who acts like a 'machine' (or artifical non-human if you will) be considered more human than a 'machine' that acts like a human? Which is at the heart of one of Philip K Dick's statements:
"living and nonliving things are exchanging properties". Both films resolve, if not conclude, that coundrum in different ways.
Quote from: Funt Solo on 20 August, 2019, 02:07:42 AM
At least we'll have bendy bananas. (https://youtu.be/uovt1sC3rtM)
Edit: which I meant to post in the politics thread. Ah well. It's here now.
I certainly agree that Johnson's career should have ended back in 1994, when he made up that myth!
Quote from: JOE SOAP on 20 August, 2019, 01:09:40 PMI find that the question of Deckard literally being a replicant, or not, is not in itself a particularly interesting loose-end nor the point, as Ridley Scott continues to argue.
I never got why Scott was so gung-ho on that point. It details the entire ending, for a start, and much of the point of what it means to be human, if we're basically watching an Amiga track down and kill ZX Spectrums.
Apart from it raising plot-holes, I can only assume he likes it because it makes his additions of metaphorical origami and fantasy animals come together in a 'clever' plot-twist at the end, which hardly matters at that point in a film which is more about story/theme than plot.
I love Blade Runner and agree that it doesn't matter whether Deckard is a replicant or not. Part of the fun is in reading the story in different ways and pondering the 'what ifs'.
If you accept him being a replicant though, it opens the possibility that the whole plot is actualy a Deckard field test and that the Nexus VI replicants haven't seen attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion - it's all made up to give Deckard something to do.
Quote from: JamesC on 20 August, 2019, 02:40:15 PMIf you accept him being a replicant though, it opens the possibility that the whole plot is actualy a Deckard field test and that the Nexus VI replicants haven't seen attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion - it's all made up to give Deckard something to do.
A field-test where they send a weaker, middle-aged replicant against a bunch of sexy upgrades who kick the shite of him repeatedly.
Quote from: JOE SOAP on 20 August, 2019, 03:05:22 PM
Quote from: JamesC on 20 August, 2019, 02:40:15 PMIf you accept him being a replicant though, it opens the possibility that the whole plot is actualy a Deckard field test and that the Nexus VI replicants haven't seen attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion - it's all made up to give Deckard something to do.
A field-test where they send a weaker, middle-aged replicant against a bunch of sexy upgrades who kick the shite of him repeatedly.
Yes - and the value of this depends on what they're testing for.
Maybe they're trying to see if the memories, values, emotions they've implanted will create the desired effect of him persevering with his duty and not saying 'fuck it' and doing a runner when faced with superior odds.
All I'm saying is, it's fun to look at the film from different angles and hypothesize on different scenarios. Some of these meanderings may lead you down a blind alley but it doesn't make them any less fun to engage in. Having an almost definite [spoiler]'replicants are just as alive as humans'[/spoiler] angle makes things a little more cut and dried which I think is detrimental to the orginial film.
Quote from: JamesC on 20 August, 2019, 03:24:08 PMYes - and the value of this depends on what they're testing for.
Maybe they're trying to see if the memories, values, emotions they've implanted will create the desired effect of him persevering with his duty and not saying 'fuck it' and doing a runner when faced with superior odds.
All that's fine to think about in a kind of fan-fictiony way, as we often do here, but none of it is really supported by the text of the film. It's an extrapolation a few steps beyond a reasonable reading, for me at least, but your mileage may vary.
I think that angle is purely Scott's, too. It certainly wasn't in the original novel, nor something the people who worked on the screenplay were thinking.
Are the replicants artificial in the book? Embarrassingly as a Sci-fi fan I've never read it. I read Starship Troopers for the first time recently, I really enjoyed it. I guess the film people thought it'd silly if the troopers were bouncing around in power armour though!
It was suggested in a paranoid scene/delusion from the book when Deckard finds himself in a fake police station run by replicant cops. Fancher also only saw it as a suggested possibility but wrote him as a human.
Quote from: Mister Pops on 14 August, 2019, 05:06:57 PMRocky and Predator have been mentioned already. I would add [spoiler]The Matrix[/spoiler], Rambo and Ghostbusters.
It's your day, Pops, Matrix 4 got the greenlight.
https://variety.com/2019/film/news/matrix-4-keanu-reeves-carrie-anne-moss-lana-wachowski-1203307955/
Oh Christ.
Quote from: GrudgeJohnDeed on 20 August, 2019, 05:36:38 PM
Are the replicants artificial in the book? Embarrassingly as a Sci-fi fan I've never read it. I read Starship Troopers for the first time recently, I really enjoyed it. I guess the film people thought it'd silly if the troopers were bouncing around in power armour though!
In the book they're called 'androids' but they are biological in nature like the replicants of the film. I vaguely remember a scene in the book with an android character having something in his arm suggesting they may have cybernetic components, but they are predominantly flesh and blood. The voigtt kampff (probably misspelled) test is the main method used to detect them, just as in the film.
Interestingly, a bone marrow test is also mentioned as providing definitive proof suggesting some differences at the cellular level, although why an ordinary DNA test wouldn't work, I don't know. I'm just guessing not so much about DNA was known during the period the author wrote the novel. To do that test would require capturing the suspect and taking them to a lab, however, so they go with the portable VK kit.
Quote from: JOE SOAP on 20 August, 2019, 09:28:06 PM
Quote from: Mister Pops on 14 August, 2019, 05:06:57 PMRocky and Predator have been mentioned already. I would add [spoiler]The Matrix[/spoiler], Rambo and Ghostbusters.
It's your day, Pops, Matrix 4 got the greenlight.
https://variety.com/2019/film/news/matrix-4-keanu-reeves-carrie-anne-moss-lana-wachowski-1203307955/
Didn't [spoiler]Carrie Anne-Moss's character die, in the third film? Then again, in a world where sentient computer programs also exist, there are ways around that.[/spoiler]
Quote from: Mardroid on 24 August, 2019, 01:14:04 PM
Quote from: JOE SOAP on 20 August, 2019, 09:28:06 PM
Quote from: Mister Pops on 14 August, 2019, 05:06:57 PMRocky and Predator have been mentioned already. I would add [spoiler]The Matrix[/spoiler], Rambo and Ghostbusters.
It's your day, Pops, Matrix 4 got the greenlight.
https://variety.com/2019/film/news/matrix-4-keanu-reeves-carrie-anne-moss-lana-wachowski-1203307955/
Didn't [spoiler]Carrie Anne-Moss's character die, in the third film? Then again, in a world where sentient computer programs also exist, there are ways around that.[/spoiler]
I always viewed it like this: the only way we can accept that Neo has magical powers (i.e. the ability to switch off machines just by thinking about it) is if he's in a simulation. So, it's layer-caked, like Inception: when Neo first awakes in his gloop-pod, all we've done is shift to a different onion layer.
Cakes, onion, gloop: anyone hungry?
Quote from: Mardroid on 24 August, 2019, 01:11:35 PM
In the book they're called 'androids' but they are biological in nature like the replicants of the film. I vaguely remember a scene in the book with an android character having something in his arm suggesting they may have cybernetic components, but they are predominantly flesh and blood. The voigtt kampff (probably misspelled) test is the main method used to detect them, just as in the film.
Interestingly, a bone marrow test is also mentioned as providing definitive proof suggesting some differences at the cellular level, although why an ordinary DNA test wouldn't work, I don't know. I'm just guessing not so much about DNA was known during the period the author wrote the novel. To do that test would require capturing the suspect and taking them to a lab, however, so they go with the portable VK kit.
Cyborgs eh! Interesting about the bone marrow thing too, I agree it definitely suggests that DNA knowledge wasn't widespread doesn't it. This thread has shot the book up to the top of the to-buy list!
The Princess Bride (1987)
Quote from: GrudgeJohnDeed on 24 August, 2019, 08:40:05 PM
Quote from: Mardroid on 24 August, 2019, 01:11:35 PM
In the book they're called 'androids' but they are biological in nature like the replicants of the film. I vaguely remember a scene in the book with an android character having something in his arm suggesting they may have cybernetic components, but they are predominantly flesh and blood. The voigtt kampff (probably misspelled) test is the main method used to detect them, just as in the film.
Interestingly, a bone marrow test is also mentioned as providing definitive proof suggesting some differences at the cellular level, although why an ordinary DNA test wouldn't work, I don't know. I'm just guessing not so much about DNA was known during the period the author wrote the novel. To do that test would require capturing the suspect and taking them to a lab, however, so they go with the portable VK kit.
Cyborgs eh! Interesting about the bone marrow thing too, I agree it definitely suggests that DNA knowledge wasn't widespread doesn't it. This thread has shot the book up to the top of the to-buy list!
Our cat (well, Rackle's) had bloods taken today. We have to wait until tomorrow to find out what the results are. If there was a Voight-Katt test then it would have taken half an hour and we'd have known this morning!
(I'm writing this after midnight, so substitute today for yesterday and tomorrow for today).