The Political Thread

[Robin Low]

These seem rather charitable readings of the Fall. The choice that Adam and Eve made wasn't between right and wrong, it was between obedience and disobedience. They didn't have any knowledge of right and wrong / good and evil (the latter apparently including nakedness) until they disobeyed God and ate from the Tree of Knowledge: original sin is disobedience to an omnipotent dictator, benevolent or otherwise, not choosing to commit any act of evil.

In committing this first sin they corrupted themselves and the world and condemned themselves and their descendants to pain and death (until Jesus fixed the death part, if you're of a Christian bent). These were the consequences of not doing what God had ordered, not a conscious informed choice of right and wrong.

So the lesson of Genesis, and most of the Old Testament, is not "do the right thing or suffer the consequences", it's "do what you're told or die". To which I say, piss off.

Nah, I like my version better: a choice made through naivety leading to learning. It's a metaphor for childhood and parenting. You tell your child not to run, they'll get hurt, but they run anyway, fall over and bump their head. Sure, you'll want to give them a hug better and a few more years before kicking them out of the house, but you can't have them cluttering up the place forever.

Regards,

Robin

[IndigoPrime]

Good god (ahem) what kind of school is your child at?

Not my kid—a friend's. It's a standard junior school, as far as I'm aware—not even a religious school. But one of the teachers there quite clearly needed to be reprimanded.

I'm honestly surprised, and saddened, if a school was that damaging

It's about infused and lingering belief systems. You get that in the USA with 'the flag' and similar. I have some of this myself with religion—a kind of vestigial 'belief in God', despite not believing. It's like an itch I can't scratch and make go away. My parents are not religious; all religion from me came from school, and it was relentless (despite me going to a standard primary).

I appreciate how much this bothers you, but unless your offspring is clearly being affected I'd say don't let it get to you

She's five and she's been confused by this a bunch of times. She's smart enough to ask me and to question why she's being told things by teachers that we are saying are just stories. But this is part of the problem. We have a legally mandated act of worship that is invariably Christian. She sings praise to God on a daily basis. Frankly, I'd rather they ditch all that shit. She's much rather sing Eye of the Tiger anyway...

how many of us are really comfortable with the idea that Trump will almost inevitably go to his grave after a life of callous privilege without being called to account?

I don't like that at all, but then we also have the reverse. I recall Baroness Warsi once talking about religion, and inferring you can only be a good person if you are religious. She referred to a "rising tide of militant secularisation", and wanted faith to be put back at the heart of government. I don't give a shit what people do in their own time, as long as it doesn't affect others; but religion needs to stay the hell away from politics, and people must stop linking religion with being good. Religion has been at the heart of countless wars and is still a core aspect of atrocities across the globe. But secularists are the ones often being described as militants? Right.

Also, we should want to do good things because it's right, not because we'll go to heaven. (And the reverse, too.)

you can't have them cluttering up the place forever

That's a long way from "you ate a piece of fruit I specifically told you not to eat, and so you and every woman thereafter can suffer the most excruciating pain imaginable to simply further the existence of the human race".

[TordelBack]

It's a metaphor for childhood and parenting.

If it's a metaphor about parenting it's a very poorly sustained one. God spends the rest of Genesis and the Pentateuch and a lot of the next 30-odd books, killing or at the very least tormenting everyone who disobeys Him in the slightest particular,  or happens to belong to the same tribe as someone who did. The whole planet at one point.

I get annoyed about the kids not putting their clothes in the laundry basket as much as the next metaphorical deity, but sheesh...

It's almost like the Bible is primarily intended to inspire complete obedience to the cult leaders of the day.

[Dandontdare]

I got the cane* at Catholic primary school for "disrespecting" some rosary beads.


a bamboo cane with a lead core - 3 strokes (with gusto) on the hand.

[JayzusB.Christ]

That's horrendous. But I have to ask.. what exactly were you doing with them? It's just that I've seen a few videos, and ... never mind.

[Funt Solo]

Analyze...analog...analogous...analgesic...

There so many types of bead.

[Professor Bear]

Shite as Youtube is of late in its quest to make creators accountable for how the company has spent decades financially benefiting from copyright infringement, it is also a great place to find accessible debunkings of fascist and white supremacist propaganda, such as the notion of the Pakistani grooming gang peddled by the British press (including the Guardian and BBC).  The video doesn't just debunk the objective notion, it also points out the double standard in how the media reports on organised child sex trafficking, which risks inverting truth entirely in service of wiping out the role of British men in child sex exploitation and helping to keep it slightly mystified and "foreign" as a concept - something from outside our own society - because that aids in the media's larger aim of demonising Muslims and immigrants.

One of the things mentioned in the video really stuck with me: how politically correct language can make a difference.  In this case, the conscious change from using the term "child prostitution" (a term which implies the child is a consensual actor) to "child sex exploitation" or CSE saw an immediate rise in the number of children seeking help, because the new terminology lacked the stigma of the original phrase and reframed the child as a victim of sex crimes rather than a co-conspirator.

[Robin Low]

It's a metaphor for childhood and parenting.

If it's a metaphor about parenting it's a very poorly sustained one. God spends the rest of Genesis and the Pentateuch and a lot of the next 30-odd books, killing or at the very least tormenting everyone who disobeys Him in the slightest particular,  or happens to belong to the same tribe as someone who did. The whole planet at one point.

I get annoyed about the kids not putting their clothes in the laundry basket as much as the next metaphorical deity, but sheesh...

It's almost like the Bible is primarily intended to inspire complete obedience to the cult leaders of the day.

While it's reasonable to argue to that's it's a poorly sustained metaphor, one could also argue that all parents mess up from time to time and are often hypocritical. It's a tough old job.

Like I said, I prefer to look at it as a test, not a set of instructions. I obviously wouldn't advocate believers taking it as a literal and valid-for-all-time ruleset and history of the world.

Regards,

Robin

[Robin Low]

But one of the teachers there quite clearly needed to be reprimanded.

I think we can all agree on that!

It's about infused and lingering belief systems. You get that in the USA with 'the flag' and similar. I have some of this myself with religion—a kind of vestigial 'belief in God', despite not believing. It's like an itch I can't scratch and make go away. My parents are not religious; all religion from me came from school, and it was relentless (despite me going to a standard primary).

I know what you mean - it's an early experience that becomes too ingrained to completely clean away. For me, though, it's just harmless background colour. If it affects my behaviour, then it does it subtly, although I love Christmas and all it's imagery.

I don't like that at all, but then we also have the reverse. I recall Baroness Warsi once talking about religion, and inferring you can only be a good person if you are religious.

Yeah, Widdicome said something along the lines of you don't go to hell for doing bad things, you go to hell for rejecting Christ, an idea I have absolutely no fucking time for.

She referred to a "rising tide of militant secularisation", and wanted faith to be put back at the heart of government. I don't give a shit what people do in their own time, as long as it doesn't affect others; but religion needs to stay the hell away from politics, and people must stop linking religion with being good. Religion has been at the heart of countless wars and is still a core aspect of atrocities across the globe. But secularists are the ones often being described as militants? Right.

Richard Dawkins is a bit of a wanker, though, and Stephen Fry could always ruin a good episode QI with his tiresomely smug atheism.

Also, we should want to do good things because it's right, not because we'll go to heaven. (And the reverse, too.)

True, but it's amazing how people can differ on what's good and bad, and what's right and wrong.

That's a long way from "you ate a piece of fruit I specifically told you not to eat, and so you and every woman thereafter can suffer the most excruciating pain imaginable to simply further the existence of the human race".

Metaphor, man, metaphor. Remember, it's the fundamentalists who read this nonsense literally.

Regards,

Robin

[Robin Low]

Analyze...analog...analogous...analgesic...

There so many types of bead.

You naughty, naughty people.

So, this thread has gone from politics to religion to sex.

Hmmm, sounds about right, I suppose.

Regards,

Robin

[JayzusB.Christ]

Analyze...analog...analogous...analgesic...

There so many types of bead.

You naughty, naughty people.

So, this thread has gone from politics to religion to sex.

Sounds like every Pat Mills script ever.

[Robin Low]

Analyze...analog...analogous...analgesic...

There so many types of bead.

You naughty, naughty people.

So, this thread has gone from politics to religion to sex.

Sounds like every Pat Mills script ever.

Needs more robots/aliens/zombies/dinosaurs.

Regards,

Robin

[shaolin_monkey]

Analyze...analog...analogous...analgesic...

There so many types of bead.

You naughty, naughty people.

So, this thread has gone from politics to religion to sex.

Hmmm, sounds about right, I suppose.

Regards,

Robin

It'll be bloody football next.

[Robin Low]

Analyze...analog...analogous...analgesic...

There so many types of bead.

You naughty, naughty people.

So, this thread has gone from politics to religion to sex.

Hmmm, sounds about right, I suppose.

It'll be bloody football next.

There's always someone how has to lower the bloody tone.

Regards,

Robin

[Dandontdare]

That's horrendous. But I have to ask.. what exactly were you doing with them? It's just that I've seen a few videos, and ... never mind.

Nothing as filthy as you imagine, I was only 9! I found a broken set of cheap plastic rosaries in the playground (must've been Lent) and I chased my classmates round the playground, whipping them round my head and making whip-crack noises. I still remember the teacher's earnest words as she tried to explain why this innocent game meant a caning: "They're to do with Our Lady!".

Oh, so that's clear then.

I always say that my three canings at primary school were, respectively, Religious Oppression (see above), A Miscarriage of Justice (my friend set off a stink-bomb off in the dinner hall, that I had given him on the strict condition he didn't use it at school, and I got the blame), and A Fair Cop (we teased the weird kid till he exploded and tried to strangle everyone).

As for where that left me on God, I went to a protestant secondary and was surprised to find out that all the essential guff I'd been taught about guardian angels, Purgatory, Limbo etc was not, in fact, Gospel. Once you unpick that thread, I pretty soon rejected the rest of it.

I cannot discount the possibility of a creator, whether it's God, Celestials or Ringworld Engineers, but all the rest, the holy books, the rules about what's sinful and so on, that's just, myth, folklore and social engineering.

My two final thoughts on Religion:

1. If God does exist, I'm pretty sure he doesn't care what sort of hats we wear. For some reason though, religious types seem to think this is extremely important.
2. Religion is like a big dog - If it's yours, it can provide great comfort and security, if it's someone else's it can seem scary and threatening; but in either respect, best to keep it away from small children.