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Anyway if anyone else has recommendations for comics or graphic novels like KOBK or ones that have a different take on the superhero story I'd be interested

Black Hammer is perhaps an obvious one, and pretty great. Ordinary, if you've not read it in the Meg, flips superheroes on its head quite nicely, and is currently two quid if Forbidden Planet for the hardcover.

Hmmm Black Hammer. Is it making the list Colin? I didn't make it past the first series because of the way it went a bit up its own arsehole. The journey up to that point was pretty good. I was wondering about picking it up again as there has been quite a bit more, and it generally reviews well. I need a write-up, Colin!

Yeah Black Hammer really is the obvious go to for recommendations of alternative takes on Superheroes. In many ways its the only superhero comic you need as it covers so much ground.

Its defo on the list but will need some thought as I'm still trying to process 'The End' and work out if I liked it or not. Its place was determined before it started (or as it just started). I might read The End again to see if it worked ahead of my write up.

Norm Breyfogle's Detective Comics stuff is, for my money, criminally under-rated with some absolutely insane stuff going on. 

I think its a bit liek Nocenti's DD run. It might not be top of many lists but its starting to get the credit it deserves and more and more positive reflections... certainly will here!

...
IRREDEEMABLE - Story by Mark Waid, Art by Peter Krause & Diego Barreto
...
MY BAD - Story by Bryce Ingman, Mark Russell, Art by Peter Krause
...
THE VICTORIES - Story & Art by Michael Avon Oeming

Yep, yep and The Victories is a good call. Not on the list but I really enjoyed it.

Colin: I've been reading through hundreds of Panini Marvel reprints that cover the 2000s, and figuring out which I want to keep. Turns out, the answer is 'none of them', including the mostly strong Mighty World of Marvel. However, I have used them (and 'temporary' ownership of the first 60 volumes of the original Hachette Marvel collection) to govern some deluxe/omni purchases, most of which are relatively standalone own nature. I really enjoyed:

I've got a few of these I kinda randomly picked up and must crack them open as they make for great try out material and can be picked up for bobbins.

I didn't get on with The Visions - which surprises me as I love the other King stuff I've read. Similarly the Slott Allred Silver Surfer didn't work for me, much as I love Allred's art.

Ms Marvel is another one I must get around to trying at some point.

Now I'm just left with my extensive Batman collection which will be a harder wrench. I have a 1940's Batman comic, a good many Batman and Detective from the 1960's and straight runs of both from 1970's and 80's. It would involve a lot of work to grade and document these and I don't have the time or inclination yet. Apologies for going a bit off topic.

There will never be a need to apologise for talking about any comics here. I mean the one who drifted into Usagi Yojimbo talk way ahead of time hint hint).

Wow! That sounds like a really impressive Batman collection, really impressive. Which are your fav runs. I have two more Batman runs still to appear here. Nothing as exciting as is in your collection I imagine.

It would be well worth organising as there may well be some decent value there (as I suspect you know) so even if its just for insurance purposes at least listing would be a good idea I reckon. I use a cateloguing app to track my collection. That's as much so I have good record of what has passed through my collection, as its quite an active thing. I've hit space limits and so any as I get new stuff, older stuff has to go. I'm currently in a bit of a paradigm shift in my tastes (as this thread will start to reveal I suspect) and so there's a LOT of that going on at the moment.

All of which is a very long winded way of saying part of what I love about collecting is the ongoing cateloguing, sorting and rearranging of shelves. I sometimes wonder if I enjoy that as much as reading them! I'm still a librarian at heart I guess.

BTW Fatale is coming out as a single issue softback Compendium collection at the end of July (656 pages of Brubaker/Phillips goodness for £36 via awesomebooks). Hope their other stuff will be released in a similar format

Also meant to say things for the heads up on this one. I've added it to my list of go to places (alongside Speedy Hen) before I go to amazon. Nice one.

Ha! I mean, there are still copies in the channel, so it's not like you need to buy it tomorrow. But if you start to see it vanish from various stores, I wouldn't hang about too long. When that happened last time, it was years until a reprint happened, and the set went for silly money on eBay. (There are the paperback trades as well, of course, although I've no idea how easy – or not – they are to source these days.)

Yeah having dome a little watch of Near Mint Conditions review (should have done that before pestering you fine folks) it looks lovely and a good size for a comfortable (well in the boundaries of at least) read. The only question is how long after the 18th (payday) will I last? I got Usagi Yojimbo Saga Volume 5 this month as I'm trying to make sure I get all of them before the start to disappear (same for Giant Days Library Editions).

You've totally sold me on 'Kill or be Killed' there!

Nice - hope you love it. 

I'm curious how excited I am about more Intestinauts. Really looking forward to it!

Think it might just been with the last couple of line-ups want something a bit light a fun but good and this one ticks those boxes.

Yes. Saga is the UY DH content. The Fantagraphics set is basically everything that came beforehand – the first seven trades with a cover gallery and interview in the second book. The set was also OOP for years and so I imagine it would be smart to buy it sooner rather than later if you're interested.

EDIT: Er, sorry, PsychoGoatee. I wasn't trying to duplicate your post – my browser didn't see it. *kicks the cache machine*

Thanks to you both... though maybe not Indigo Prime whose given me FOMO! Must wait until pay day as I've spent too much on comics this month already... must wait....

Hi Funt, it's absolutely nothing to do with comicsgate. Whilst I do think identity politics is the enemy of class struggle I don't think I have to be inappropriately politically labelled just because I look at a list of creators and think 'Christ, nothing for me there'.

It might be the way you say 'types' of creator as if there is some unified 'thing' about that list that is why you don't like them. Rather than stating there is no one on that list of individul creators whose work you enjoy.

[would]

Y'know... I wasn't sure if I was going to bother with this, romance comics not really being my thing*, but I'm now sorely tempted to back it just to spite BPP.

*Although I would very likely buy a reprint of that time travelling Adam Ant strip from Tops.

Can I just check where your seen who they creators are? I've not yet seen a list so woulod be good to know?

https://2000ad.com/news/roxy-a-contemporary-romance-anthology-to-get-your-heart-racing/

Nice one. Thanks

Sadly the vibes on this are both the can't draw school and the let's pile on Ed Piskor mob so hard pass.

I honestly don't understand rebellions thinking on using these types of creators. These seems little sense that their work has ever connected with rebellions existing base and less evidence the themes they push have a market in the U.K. scene.

Can I just check where your seen who they creators are? I've not yet seen a list so woulod be good to know?

Yep, that 2 volume special edition covers the 7 slim paperback Fantagraphics trades, which are the beginning of Usagi, prior to the Mirage/Dark Horse stuff in Saga.

Spot on. Thanks.

Quick aside here to add to the more general comic talk (and cos I think Indigo Prime might be able to answer my question).

There's a lovely looking 2 Volume Special Edition hardcovers slip case edition from Fantagraphic (around £90 these days). I think this contains content that from the early Fantagraphic stuff that's not included in the Usagi Yojimbo Saga collections - which I think start with the Mirage moving onto the Dark Horse series and so the content in that Hardcover won't be duplicated the Saga collections...

...does anyone know if that's correct?

Your thoughts reminded me of some literary theory - I think Mikhail Bakhtin's but building on Roland Barthes' Death of the Author stuff. Basically the idea that the text is created by the reader in the act of reading.

I've not read Bakhtin's work but have read a lot around work influenced by him, but more focused on the 'value' of imaginative literature of all forms in supporting the needs of the reader. I mean this was back in the day and its al funnelled down to a few headlines. Basically a less fully expressed version of what you said.

Writers PAH - they got nothin' without us. Basically.

While it's true that whatever a person takes from a work of art is valid, its still hard not to feel annoyed when people misinterpret the intention of the authors in some cases.
The obvious one is how some people interpret Dredd as a template for how policing should be done rather than a satire.

Yeah I get annoyed with this type of things too. The thing is though my annoyance doesn't diminish their reading and in some ways that reading (of Dredd) provides a value insight that they are folks I should probably avoid!

I recently beening thinking about Life of Pi a lot (which means its time for a re-read). Which I always read as an atheist text, as that's what I come with. Others see it as a 'Proof of God' (I think it was Obama who said that I'm too lazy to check), as that's what they bring. The author seems to stay quite enigmatic about it and talks about story, so we all get the story we need. Wonderful book.

I hadn't really thought about Spider-Man while reading KOBK but now you point it out it's definitely apparent! This was probably my favourite Brubaker-Phillips series, this or The Fade Out I think. Recommended!

That Fade Out didn't make the list is almost certainly just down to the fact I've not got to a re-read yet!

Kill Or Be Killed: I thought that was great and it was the series that really got be into the whole Brubaker/Phillips thing. I'm now... probably a bit obsessive. Note quite a completist, but I've bought Pulp and the entire run of Reckless. Some other one-shots. All of Criminal (which I assume from "in which I bemoaned them only appearing once more" isn't in this list?), Fatale and Velvet. The Fade Out is missing, mostly because it's so bloody expensive on the second-hand market.

I dropped off a little once the started focusing on OGN. Not really sure why. I really must get back on board as they are really good!

Yeah mean like the deluxe hardcover Nikolai Dante we NEED and the Complete Sinister Dexter Files we also need.

Yep we need more Rebellion Kickstarters for sure. My wallet wouldn't but if they get them right...

[Number 85 - Part 3]

Number 85 - Part 3

Where to find it

The whole thing fits into 4 handy collections but the first and last seem to be getting a little tricky to get physically. I'd have thought with a bit of shopping around you'd find them though.

There is a complete deluxe hardcover collection with the lot in but that seems to be out of print at the moment and going for silly money. With any luck for you omnibus fans that will get a reprint at some point?

If you are after digital you'll be fine as it's all there and reasonably affordable.

The aftermarket seems to be your friend here. The two out a print collections (1 and 4 as per above) don't seem too hard to find and don't sell for daft prices either. The floppies seem to be reasonably priced if you have a bit of patience.

Learn more

Obligatory Wikipedia page

Beyond that not as much as I thought they'd be has popped up given how popular Brubaker and Phillips are. Comics Alliance does a very nice detailed breakdown of the pacing in one scene that's worth a read.

Loser City has a less postive take than mine that's worth a read.

Surprisingly CBR has a good interview with Brubaker and Phillips BUT its just ahead of the final issue so probably best ignored if you've not read this one yet.

So once again I find myself leaning into Good reads to find some nice diverse opinions on this one.

What is all this?

Conscious that this is becoming a long thread and if you're wondering what the heck you've just read and can't be arsed (quite sensibly) to search back to find out I'll link to my opening posts that try to explain all this.

What this all came from

And of course a nerd won't do a list like this without setting 'Rules' / guidelines

Some thoughts on what will not be on the list.

[Number 85 - Part 2]

Number 85 - Part 2


Copyright - Them what created it

So I was seeing all these parallels, this connective tissue, but at the time no one else seemed to be referring to it. So I wondered about why and concluded that I might well be reading too much into things. That there was nothing there other than what I was (over) reading into what I read. And frankly that didn't matter. This was my reading of the comics, if I brought that to the party and that informed what I took from the comics and affected my enjoyment that was fine. It was my reading, my experience, regardless of any original intent from the creators. Any individual reading of any comic, book, movie, play, song, whatever is just that an individual reading of that piece of art. If what was given to me by the creators was there simply as I saw it and it came from my engagement with the piece then it was there, in that reading and is valid as any 'correct' reading. Folks can absolutely disagree, see that reading as poppycock, dismiss it and therefore question my reading of others things, say I missed the 'real' meaning of the piece. That doesn't take away from my experience.

Hence we get the all important subjectivity of anyone's engagement with any piece of art. There is no wrong reading, even if that reading does go against the planned purposes of the creators and book the trend of more widely held views. Everyone comes to the art they engage with different experiences, different needs and therefore sees that work through their individual perspective and they will only enjoy a work if that work satisfies the needs they bring to it. I wrote my Librarianship master dissertation about this... yes, yes there is such a thing! There isn't really any good or bad imaginative literature, it all has value if it's able to satisfy the needs that certain readers bring to it. I come to Kill or be Killed as a fan of superhero fiction and so bring those things to it. Seeing those superhero tropes, all be it presented in a very different way, in this work satisfied some subconscious need I was engaging with and so that's cool.

That will then be filtered through society, media, the options of others and so as a society we determine what is good, bad, what has value and what doesn't. A collective view is 'agreed' on views that are different from those that are exposed as outliers and are commonly disagreed with. None of that takes away from the validity of that specific reading to that particular person...

... as it turns out in this case as I've done my background reading for this write up, it's become clear that actually Brubaker (and I assume by extension Phillips) did intend for them to be there. To quote the Wikipedia entry (I know, I know lazy research!) linked to below:

He describes the story as Death Wish meets Breaking Bad with the adventure of The Amazing Spider-Man comics from the 1970s.

Which kinda burst my bubble when heading into writing this after for so long assuming I was seeing things that weren't there. I decided to keep all that in however as for so long, until I started typing this one up, having those feelings was my experience when it came to Kill or be Killed. Shows what I know!


Copyright - Them what created it

Beyond all that it's really important to note I think I'd have enjoyed this one regardless of the superhero story told through the bitter lens of a psychological crime thriller. Over its 20 issues it tells a fantastic, tense, compelling visceral and violent tale. I mentioned in my reflections of Fatale (linked to above) that I find Brubaker and Phillips noir crime stories even more engaging when they have a different layer to them. In this case, as with Fatale the supernatural elements add a deeper layer of mystery and intrigue. They allow their visits to the world of crime to explore wider, deeper ideas. That's not to say that I don't enjoy pure crime stories and we'll see that as we get deeper (much deeper in one case) into this list. Just in their specific case it adds a little something extra that makes them stand out to me. It satisfies another need to bring to my reading and adds to my particular enjoyment.

In Kill or be Killed it really leaves the question of whether Dylan is actually visited by a demon that compels him to kill or whether it's all a reflection of his mental health issues. We the reader get to decide what we take from those visitations. I need to read it again to make a call on whether it handles those mental health issues well, or whether it simply uses them cheaply to create some sensationalist drama. For now I'll allow better informed folks to make that call. Though given it deals with suicidal ideation its worth flagging a content warning on this one.

Phillips' art is of course sublime. I think I covered most things I want to say about it in my entry for Fatale. Suffice to say he uses his deep shadows and sharp contrast to create a perfect tone and atmosphere for the piece. He handles the intimate character moments with depth and intensity. The action elements are violent and uncompromising, he depicts them as suitably hard, terrible and with real consequence. It's another artistic triumph with his typical first class storytelling.


Copyright - Them what created it

Errr and yes that cover really does make clear I should have had no doubts about the Spidey references being made hey! Anyway Kill or be Killed is another fantastic entry in Brubaker and Phillips long list of collaborations. It's my favourite of them, though we might get another crime story by a different Phillips coming up later. I think that's as it plays with another thing, superhero stories, I enjoy in such a different and fresh way. It adds a new spin on another of the needs I bring to reading the escapist fantasy of custom heroics. I hope if you've read it, or decide to read it, your experience is as good.