Not sure if this is the right spot to put this but here go from Pat's twitter feed:
Q: When's the Joe Pineapple stuff coming out?
A: Good question. Clint's art ETA originally Oct, we're now in November - so let's assume December. Then I have to write the finale eps which Clint has to draw. Add on six months, maybe. So I'd guestimate next Summer
Plus if we will get a new ABC Warriors story:
Joe Pineapples saga will be my last one, then no more ABCs because it's not viable for me to write anymore. For reasons most readers know. And no hungry hack will be allowed to take over my characters.
Is the loooong awaited Bisley one, passed to Langley?
god dammit pat....
QuoteIs the loooong awaited Bisley one, passed to Langley?
According to Pat Mills on Twitter Simon Bisley has done the first 2 episodes and Clint Langley will be finishing off the rest
Is the next Slaine story its final one or not?
Looks like it
He's really burning those bridges, isn't he? Quite something to repeatedly attack and accuse the company that's been buying his output. It's not like Mills has been working for a range of publishers. (His video game tweets were quite something too, praising EA vs Rebellion. I suspect devs on enforced crunch would have something to say about that.)
pat mills praised the lootbox infested ea? wow I am losing less respect for him with each passing day :'(
I think he praised them for how they treat their workers. "Apparently" all UK companies are slave drivers.
https://twitter.com/PatMillsComics/status/1330177411779063818
QuoteRight - I've worked for other games co's as a consultant (EA Games in Washington) and found the vibe totally relaxed, generous and friendly. No 'Get on with your work,' shit I witnessed at Rebellion on a visit there. Thatcher has much to answer for in shaping a generation.
Calling fellow writers 'hungry hacks' seems incredibly spiteful. During the heyday of Sláine, Nemesis and the ABCs, Mills was among the absolute best, but his hits since then have been few and far between. Take your football and storm off home if you want, Pat, but don't insult your co-workers in the process. And co-workers they are - he hasn't actually been the boss for a very long time.
John Wagner has remained at his A-game up to the present, and is more than happy to let other decent writers have a shot at his characters.
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 22 November, 2020, 09:10:15 AM
He's really burning those bridges, isn't he? Quite something to repeatedly attack and accuse the company that's been buying his output. It's not like Mills has been working for a range of publishers. (His video game tweets were quite something too, praising EA vs Rebellion. I suspect devs on enforced crunch would have something to say about that.)
The EA thing was just.....bizarre. "They get free cookies, amazing coffees and a play room with toys!"
Yes, these patronising millennial work-place tactics really make up for long hours, no overtime pay and generally terrible employment practices. And this from the alleged Mr Creator Rights.
Quote from: GordonR on 22 November, 2020, 03:09:49 PM
Yes, these patronising millennial work-place tactics really make up for long hours, no overtime and generally terrible employment practices. And this from the alleged Mr Creator Rights.
It often seems that the ''creator rights' he keeps banging on about refer specifically to himself. I seem to remember him having a bit of a tantrum about you doing a Satanus story, which was was enjoyable and in no way compromised his own continuity of the character's world. Which, let's face it, is also Dredd's world.
Rico, Bob Booth, Judge Solomon et al have been used extensively by John Wagner, but the dinosaur's off limits.
Yes, when Pat bangs on about creator rights, what he really means is Pat's Rights. If you think any different, then you have no idea what goes on behind the scenes, or the creative collaborators he's stomped on over the years.
As an example, I'll ask the question I've still never got a satisfactory answer to: where's my late friend Martin Emond's credit on the Accident Man movie? He was the artist who designed and drew the character in Toxic (this is normally called 'co-creator' among people who are interested in comic creator rights) and yet the only creator credits on the movie are for Pat Mills & co-writer Tony Skinner. Drew it all themselves, did they?
Gordon: Especially given some of his recent tweets slamming Rebellion for allowing some series to be illustrated by someone other than the original artist. When challenged on this regarding his own strips, which only survived through multiple artists, something something different back then something. Neither of which addresses the Edmond point.
I've only tangentially worked with Rebellion, and perhaps things are very different when you're fully on the inside. But they never struck me as the evil monster Mills makes them out to be. What gets be at this point is the level to which he's burning bridges. I genuinely don't get it. If this is all to drum up custom for Spacewarp, it's a curious type of marketing. If he genuinely believes it, fair enough; but in my experience people who repeatedly punch the mouth that feeds them eventually get to the point where they are cast adrift one way or another.
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 22 November, 2020, 03:47:55 PM
Gordon: Especially given some of his recent tweets slamming Rebellion for allowing some series to be illustrated by someone other than the original artist. When challenged on this regarding his own strips, which only survived through multiple artists, something something different back then something.
I've always thought that was an argument you could drive a coach and horses through: how come Pat gets to say "no one writes my stories but me" but Kev O'Neill didn't get to say "no one draws Nemesis but me"...? Slaine would have been a fucking short strip if Angie Kincaid had asserted the same rights that Pat demands. And "different back then" doesn't really explain the artist changes on Defoe, Mills' most recent creation for 2000AD — how come Leigh Gallagher didn't get to say "No, I co-created this strip and no one draws it but me"?
I work in the Public Sector and even there we could see through the "let's all make this a jolly place to work" nonsense they try to enforce in lieu of offering decent pay. It's fundamentally corporate Gaslighting.
Bloody hell.
Quote from: Pat Mills on TwitterYou're right. Easy to part with real royalties while still controlling character. It doesn't happen IMHO cos it's about power more than money. 'How dare the peasants Rebel? We need to keep them in their place.' They even call themselves 'Rebellion' which is truly Orwellian!
He'd best hope Spacewarp continues to sell or Rebellion are just all "he's off on one again".
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 22 November, 2020, 04:12:50 PM
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 22 November, 2020, 03:47:55 PM
Gordon: Especially given some of his recent tweets slamming Rebellion for allowing some series to be illustrated by someone other than the original artist. When challenged on this regarding his own strips, which only survived through multiple artists, something something different back then something.
I've always thought that was an argument you could drive a coach and horses through: how come Pat gets to say "no one writes my stories but me" but Kev O'Neill didn't get to say "no one draws Nemesis but me"...? Slaine would have been a fucking short strip if Angie Kincaid had asserted the same rights that Pat demands. And "different back then" doesn't really explain the artist changes on Defoe, Mills' most recent creation for 2000AD — how come Leigh Gallagher didn't get to say "No, I co-created this strip and no one draws it but me"?
That's something that's never occurred to me, and it's a bit sad that it hadn't occurred to Pat Mills either. Has the
Accident Man film thing ever been put to him?
Also, I won't miss the
ABC Warriors all that much; it hasn't really grabbed me since the early 90s. I'll miss
Sláine, but for the art way more than the scripts. Everything up to, and including, the
Horned God was truly beautiful, and I'll re-read them forever, but everything afterwards was fairly hit-and-miss, especially when dead characters started coming back. Sorry, it's harsh, but I feel if a writer is going to call his colleagues 'hacks', then his own work better be pretty freaking amazing.
QuoteEverything up to, and including, the Horned God was truly beautiful, and I'll re-read them forever, but everything afterwards was fairly hit-and-miss
The Swan Children was very good.
Apart from some name-changes and the inclusion of Ukko, it was absolutely identical to an old Irish legend, the Children of Lir, but it was very good, yes. I enjoyed quite a few of the post-Horned God stories - like I said, hit and miss; there were definitely hits.
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 22 November, 2020, 09:51:37 PM]
That's something that's never occurred to me, and it's a bit sad that it hadn't occurred to Pat Mills either. Has the Accident Man film thing ever been put to him?
At least once, because the response that I saw was that he and Tony Skinner had "done all the development work" before it was handed to Emond. Obviously, unless that development work included detailed character designs and a full visual style guide, that's clearly bollocks.
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 22 November, 2020, 11:31:34 PM
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 22 November, 2020, 09:51:37 PM]
That's something that's never occurred to me, and it's a bit sad that it hadn't occurred to Pat Mills either. Has the Accident Man film thing ever been put to him?
At least once, because the response that I saw was that he and Tony Skinner had "done all the development work" before it was handed to Emond. Obviously, unless that development work included detailed character designs and a full visual style guide, that's clearly bollocks.
Feck sake, I hadn't realised the double standards involved in his rants before today.
(Also, what's wrong with 'getting on with your work' when you're at work? That's what most of us have to do. That's how we get paid.)
Currently AD is blessed with some great and talented writers and I believe Mill's stories is not "required". His writing (even Spacewarp felt like his current series) has not been so great. All his current series is not boiling over with new ideas or concepts but rather rehash of the same boring anti-authority storylines.
I always enjoyed Slaine and will mist this the most. I would like a concluded chapter of Savage.
My favorite Mills' work includes ABC Warriors Volgan Wars, and Meknificant Seven (and much of Black Hole). Other than that and Cursed Earth, I don't enjoy much of his output. Not a big Slaine fan, but haven't bothered to read much of it.
If I was a creator and retiring, I'd be excited to see what others were going to do with my characters. Others using your characters would be a compliment. I assume Wagner is okay passing along Strontium Dog, as I've seen a new series is on the way?
I for one will be deeply saddened if Mills' upcoming work is his last for 2000AD. His voice has been a core part of the magazine for mine, and while it's obvious he's increasingly not for everyone, his being a regular in 2000AD went a long way towards giving it a unique tone I couldn't find anywhere else.
While his various arguments on creators rights are about as morally shaky on examination as many other comic writers who've taken a similar public stand - personally I think the fact that creating a comic requires an artist more than a writer sometimes gives writers some fairly large blind spots - I still think it's valuable that he's willing to say such things publicly. If he's trashing his career at 2000AD, he's earned that right: there wouldn't be a 2000AD without him.
I for one am sad no one else would get to write a.b.c warriors way back in the day i always wondered what a gordon rennie written a.b.c would have been like? course that was before i found out about the satanus shitshow and well...
god uncle pat pisses me off to no end. At least with Alan moore he recognises artists as equals to the point when he takes his name off adaptations he lets the artists get the recognition. I don't see uncle pat being that nice
While I see as many inconsistancies in Uncle Pats view - I see as many in his work these day. The strip I'm really going to miss, or at least I'd like to see him give a conclusion to hasn't been mentioned as much.
Both ABC and Slaine have to me become bloated and have plenty of points where their adventure could have wrapped up quite happliy. So slapping another on those will have less impact.
Savage however has been a much tighter story and felt like it was going somewhere so that's the one I'll miss most and wish was going to be wrapped up.
For me it's Defoe.
I love Sláine to bits, it's my all-time favourite 2000AD strip after all, but it's had more than a fair run: I'll miss it, but there's plenty of it to re-read. ABC Warriors has been great fun in recent years, but it's definitely been treading old ground. Savage, while really incredibly flexible in the genres it has effortlessly hopped, had maybe got a bit too involved in its continuity stitching efforts.
Defoe, on the other hand, has been completely fresh almost every time it's appeared. Booda's most recent space saga being the ultimate example: did anyone back in 2007 think we'd eventually be getting Reeks In Spaaace? I could definitely use more Defoe.
So I'll miss that, but mainly and always the excitement of a new Mills strip in the prog: you never, never know what you're going to get. There is something ridiculous about expecting any of these gods of the prog to still be serving us up brilliant comics at a per-page fee, now they are in their 70s. Wanting to do something differently, or wanting to do less, is their well-earned right.
Just catching up on his Twitter rant and I'm pretty disappointed in some of his comments.
I've become pretty tired of ABCs and Slaine for the same reasons others have said above. Defoe was great for a bit, but the last couple of series didn't work for me at all. Savage though has been excellent and like Colin if there's one of his series I'd like to him continue it's that.
Quote from: broodblik on 23 November, 2020, 03:12:53 AM
All his current series is not boiling over with new ideas or concepts..
Sadly true and illustrated on his Twitter feed where he has a pop at Hookjaw for not being a retread of the Action series. FFS.
Quote from: TordelBack on 23 November, 2020, 08:38:41 AM
For me it's Defoe.
I love Sláine to bits, it's my all-time favourite 2000AD strip after all, but it's had more than a fair run: I'll miss it, but there's plenty of it to re-read. ABC Warriors has been great fun in recent years, but it's definitely been treading old ground. Savage, while really incredibly flexible in the genres it has effortlessly hopped, had maybe got a bit too involved in its continuity stitching efforts.
Defoe, on the other hand, has been completely fresh almost every time it's appeared. Booda's most recent space saga being the ultimate example: did anyone back in 2007 think we'd eventually be getting Reeks In Spaaace? I could definitely use more Defoe.
So I'll miss that, but mainly and always the excitement of a new Mills strip in the prog: you never, never know what you're going to get. There is something ridiculous about expecting any of these gods of the prog to still be serving us up brilliant comics at a per-page fee, now they are in their 70s. Wanting to do something differently, or wanting to do less, is their well-earned right.
Ah yeah, I don't think anyone is saying he's not entitled to do his own thing. I mean, I wish John Wagner would go back to doing all the Dredds, but I just feel grateful that he stuck with it for so long. I just wish Pat wouldn't be so arsey about the whole thing, and act like all other creators are in his shadow.
That said, yeah, I'd like to see more
Defoe too. And I'd forgotten about
Savage, which I'd definitely like to see more of as it edges closer to the world of the
ABC Warriors / Ro-Busters. Ah well.
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 23 November, 2020, 10:28:55 AMI just wish Pat wouldn't be so arsey about the whole thing...
I think arseiness is baked into the singular genius of the man; his supreme confidence about whatever subject he's tackling today, plus his conviction that small-minded grey men are working ceaselessly against the cause of art in general* and Pat in particular**, are what gives his work its unique bite. What I find irritating is the way some of his True Fans*** adopt the same tone, and pile onto his targets with all the ignorance and unearned righteousness of Termites.
One thing is clear, though: a creative powerhouse like Mills should enjoy all the bountiful fruits of his labours, and would in many other fields. If he's cranky about reprint fees, rights and creative control, despite having been a knowing player in that very system, he's probably still got a right to be.
*True.
**Debatable.
***Among which I count myself.
Quote from: TordelBack on 23 November, 2020, 08:38:41 AM
For me it's Defoe.
I forgot about Defoe and it was definitely a lot more refreshing from the normal Mills stuff. But if I had to choose I would still say gives us a Savage finale.
I still believe that AD has more than enough talented writers to continue stuff like ABC and Defoe.
I do understand Pat's anger over the royalties situation. And it's clear from his tweets that he's leaving 2000AD because of that.
The bit I found harsh was the comments about "talentless hack" and "leeches" not be allowed to take over "his" characters. (I wonder if he includes Alan Moore in that category given he once wrote an ABC Warriors story)
It's one thing to not want someone to take over your characters but you don't have to have to rubbishy your colleagues.
I think it's telling that all the stories in SpaceWarp are written and (co-)created by Pat.
Quote from: Rogue Judge on 23 November, 2020, 03:42:52 AMI assume Wagner is okay passing along Strontium Dog
As I recall, he said he was fine with someone else having a crack at the series, but he would never write it again.
Quote from: 13school on 23 November, 2020, 05:02:09 AMIf he's trashing his career at 2000AD, he's earned that right: there wouldn't be a 2000AD without him.
He has the right to trash his career if he so chooses. But the way he's lashing out at the comic itself, the company that makes it, and other creators, leaves a bad taste. (And, yes, there wouldn't be 2000 AD without him—but also without others as well.) That he's not consistent in his arguments is a pity.
Quote from: Barrington Boots on 23 November, 2020, 10:06:04 AMSadly true and illustrated on his Twitter feed where he has a pop at Hookjaw for not being a retread of the Action series. FFS.
That one baffled me. It's a very 1970s comics way of looking at the world, serving people up the same ideas week after week. That might have worked then; I doubt it would now. And that's even the case for children's comics, which are these days a bit more sophisticated. Also: we already have that Hookjaw. It's in the shelf. So why not try something new? If nothing else, that explains why ABC Warriors have basically been doing the same thing for decades now.
Quote from: TordelBack on 23 November, 2020, 10:47:56 AMOne thing is clear, though: a creative powerhouse like Mills should enjoy all the bountiful fruits of his labours, and would in many other fields. If he's cranky about reprint fees, rights and creative control, despite having been a knowing player in that very system, he's probably still got a right to be.
I wholeheartedly agree, BUT. I live in a world of publishing. I've done this for 20 years. Last week, I was told I was likely to get a reprint fee on something.
That's the first time this has ever happened to me, in 20 years. But, hey, I know my lot when I write and release something to a client.
It that fair? Possibly not. If I worked in comics, would I single out
one company and argue they are somehow the big evil and that everyone else is super-lovely and offers "industry standard" terms when that—from all the input I've had from others—does not seem to be the case? Like hell. If nothing else, it shows Rebellion's patience and good nature to have not said: "OK, we're done." Instead, they seem to have just figured Mills will go off on one now and again, and so be it.
Can one really be said to 'trash their career' at 71? Pat's had his career, and then some, as a contract editor and work-for-hire writer. He's always been disparaging of certain other editors, writers and artists, and it didn't seem to do him (much) harm.
I can understand that he wants to create 2000AD (again), but this time he'll actually own it, and contrasting Spacewarp with the supposed shortcomings of his old employer and allegedly uninspired colleagues is a solid tactic: certainly he seems to get plenty of support for it on social media from people who only remember the good old days, but don't let it divert them from rubbishing a comic they no longer read (and to judge from comments if they do read it, they certainly don't buy it). Why would he go on writing for the competition who have 'stolen' all his ideas, when he has a shit-load of work to do for his own project?
I can also see that it's going to be a huge task, with very dubious financial rewards, and that only emphasises the knocking-stingey-2000AD contradiction. But any rewards there are will be his this time, and putting your money where your always-active mouth is can only be commended.
I suspect what's probably colouring Mills' view of comics and 2000AD in particular is that he's nearing the end of a fifty year career in UK comics and it seems like nothing much has changed.
You can argue that his efforts with regard to creator's rights and royalties have been erratic and self-serving, but I don't think you could say they weren't heartfelt and a cause he's been consistently committed to. So to see that things in that area are for all intents and purposes the same after half a century - and pay rates seem to have actually gone backwards, at least in the last few decades - could be a reasonable cause for some public bitterness.
Maybe he was living in a dream world to think that comic creators would ever be able to expect solid royalties and / or a stake in the characters they created, but compared to how creators in other creative fields are treated it seems like a reasonable goal to aim for.
Thing is, it's more complicated than that. Pay's gone nowhere in decades. The same's true in my industry—when a leading Mac mag first commissioned me, I got an apology for the 20p/word rate. A few weeks back, I got an apology from a leading mag for a similar rate. But that's down to fewer and fewer people paying for things. Magazine circulation keeps dipping. Because of that, there's less money and so rates stagnate. It's the nature of the beast.
There are of course alternatives. If creators want to retain ownership, they can, either by self-publishing or via the likes of Image. But plenty of people have outlined that this isn't necessarily a road to riches. Notably, we saw Edginton/D'Israeli sell Scarlet Traces to Rebellion. And I've heard from a couple of parties that Image isn't a get-rich-quick scheme for comics creators, but additional risk with possible greater rewards in a very difficult market.
Look at the number of Image series that have stalled mid-story arc while the creators do work-for-hire. As you say, it's a model where the creator shares in risk as well as reward.
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 23 November, 2020, 11:45:16 AM
Thing is, it's more complicated than that. Pay's gone nowhere in decades. The same's true in my industry—when a leading Mac mag first commissioned me, I got an apology for the 20p/word rate. A few weeks back, I got an apology from a leading mag for a similar rate. But that's down to fewer and fewer people paying for things. Magazine circulation keeps dipping. Because of that, there's less money and so rates stagnate. It's the nature of the beast.
I suspect my industry is also your industry (though I'm writing for publications in Australia). And it's definitely true that pay rates for writers have stagnated or gone backwards over the last 20 years. But while there are a number of venues I know that have gone from thriving to struggling and simply can't afford to pay writers the equivalent of what they used to, there are others where the writers rates haven't budged while the marketing department has gone from one person to a half dozen (full time jobs at that).
Not to get off track, but in my experience writer's pay has stagnated for a whole range of reasons, some of which are down to management realising they can find people online who are willing to write for cheap because writing is a dream job for lots of people, and some of which are down to writing itself becoming the kind of job that only people with other sources of income (family money usually) can seriously consider so management doesn't really need to offer a decent wage. Some of those things can't be helped, and some of them should be pushed back against whenever possible.
Quote from: CalHab on 23 November, 2020, 11:55:04 AM
Look at the number of Image series that have stalled mid-story arc while the creators do work-for-hire. As you say, it's a model where the creator shares in risk as well as reward.
This is the real issue for me. Creator owned is a wonderful idea. the reality is judging from the series that I've read which have ended short, or just disappeared mid-track from Image (as an example), from pretty big name creators too, it seems the risk doesn't pay off that often. Jim has commented on this any number of times. Therefore comics like 2000ad and other WFH publishers allow folks the 'luxary' of taking that risk. They therefore have to be viable.
Its not a big market out there. Most comics readers seem pretty conservative in their choices and how many series actually make it to the promised land of that tv deal?
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 23 November, 2020, 12:04:12 PM
Its not a big market out there. Most comics readers seem pretty conservative in their choices and how many series actually make it to the promised land of that tv deal?
I've been doing this professionally for about twelve years. In that time, at least a dozen books I've worked on have had TV deals announced, or one of the creators had told me the book has been officially green-lit for production, and the number of those I've seen on the small screen? None.
This is all true, even the greatest, most popular comics creators in the history of the medium have struggled with making self-publishing/creator-owned work in the comics marketplace.
Dave Sim was the poster-boy and evangelist of the approach, running a two-to-three-person show with every page promptly reprinted and a monthly circulation of something like 25-35K copies, allegedly getting paid $100K for his single issue of McFarlane's Spawn, but even that level of success seems to have devastated his mental and latterly his physical health and left him in a perilous financial state. And he's a best-case.
It's a savage business both in and out of the corporate embrace, and in a world where the traditional comics giants only still exist because of their ability to flog IP to movies and games, rights are everything. If there is a better future, it probably looks like a shift towards the Raina Telgemeier model, publishing broad-appeal novel-sized kids'comics. She started out doing graphic adaptations of existing novels and properties, but I'd be willing to bet her Scholastic contract looks far more like a standard author/publisher arrangement than any creator that our forum traditionally discusses.
Quote from: alphadogau on 23 November, 2020, 11:12:07 AM
The bit I found harsh was the comments about "talentless hack" and "leeches" not be allowed to take over "his" characters. (I wonder if he includes Alan Moore in that category given he once wrote an ABC Warriors story)
It's one thing to not want someone to take over your characters but you don't have to have to rubbishy your colleagues.
This.
For what it's worth, I think Pat's doing what he
should be doing with
Spacewarp, which is not having to deal with anyone else's decisions.
He's an auld divil, no question, and I'm sure he'd consign most of us here to the bin marked "tyranny of the voting coupon".
It looks like he's doubling down. This is just unpleasant to watch.
Continued...!
Looking at Pat's Twitter today, you have a guy telling him how every other Dredd writer undermines his and Wagner's work on the strip to the point of it not being worth reading (I may be misremembering the phrasing). Now nobody is denying Pat's enormous creative contribution to what the character became, but he has written less than 60 out of what's getting on for 3000 episodes, and about half of those were in the '70s. What's more, he was also the editor that farmed out the strip to other writers in the first place.
This baloney (to be charitable) nostalgic viewpoint presumably represents a significant part of the audience Pat needs to tap into to keep his venture going, so I can see why he courts them - but it also seems horribly counterproductive. The Dredd strip is so much larger than his original (vital) input that it does nobody any credit to be dismissing the other writers who have developed and kept it going all these years.
It'd be easier to be a fan if Pat just championed his own huge successes without being seen to put down others, but that's undoubtedly his way, and I suppose we shouldn't be surprised.
Simon Bowland suggested he be more respectful of other creators. Mills told him to "fuck off".
The Dredd comments baffled me. Mills deserves credit for a lot of the world-building with The Cursed Earth. But after that point, Dredd was Wagner and Grant's baby, and Wagner's after that. Just because people are so wedded to Wagner's Dredd they cannot see positives in anyone else's work, that shouldn't provide fuel for suggesting no-one else gets the character. Al Ewing's Dredd was very Wagner in nature. Niemand's is too.
I guess it's all noise and marketing. Despite arguing to the contrary, Spacewarp is aiming for people nostalgic for early-1980s 2000 AD and many of those people are lapsed readers who have a bee in their bonnet about the modern Prog. But that leaves few avenues for Mills unless Spacewarp is a success, he downs tools, or Tharg decides that the noise doesn't matter and he wants more Sláine (or whatever), albeit from a creator that's been slagging off other writers, 2000 AD, Rebellion, etc.
I do think it's marketing, the free publicity of controversy and "taking the client list with me", coupled with the familiar vitriol that makes Pat Pat and a realisation that maybe you can burn bridges if at 71 you don't see the need to cross them again.
I do unreservedly wish him well, none of us would be here without him, but I still wish he'd treat his fellow scribblers better.
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 23 November, 2020, 08:04:27 PM
Simon Bowland suggested he be more respectful of other creators. Mills told him to "fuck off".
...and wondered how Pat could form an opinion if he hadn't even read what he was slagging off, which I've noticed Mr. Mills seems to have a habit of.
The Misty reprint special from 2009 was when I first really noticed him doing that. Tore into it, going on a tirade about how it was everything that was wrong with the comic after
he was no longer involved with it and then said he hadn't actually read any of it.
Oh I wish I hadn't looked. We all owe Uncle Pat a bunch. When he's on form he can still crack out a glorious story. He's still full of that magnificent Millsian energy that imbues so much of his best work that's for sure... its just... for what ever reason he seems to be enjoying his notoriety or something and comes across as thrashing out without really thinking.
He'll of course rally some folks who will blindly follow him, regardless, their side choosen. He'll raise the ire of those that disagree so much with him and the rest of us. Well I can only speak for myself but its a bit embarrassing to watch and I just want it to go away.
yeah, love Pat's work, agree creators deserve more rights and compensation, but that was a bit grim
the Mcarthy exchange was hilarious though
Pat: Screw the comics establishment
Brendan: Yeah screw 'em
Pat: You and me Brendan we're the outsiders
Brendan: Yeah outsiders
Pat: Bloody Christians
Brendan: Bloody woke marxist lefty snowflakes
Pat:
Pat: yeah, well, I mean these debates are too complicated for Twitter, really aren't they? Night Brendan
Brendan: It's not complicated at all woke lefty scum ruling comics
Pat: ah, me tea's on, got to go m8
Urgh. I'd no idea BMC was a full-on Trumper. What next? Will we discover Dan Abnett punches dolphins for fun?
To be fair, dolphins are pricks.
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 23 November, 2020, 10:46:00 PM
Urgh. I'd no idea BMC was a full-on Trumper. What next? Will we discover Dan Abnett punches dolphins for fun?
He's been the full KP nutter for years.
The Twitter thing with him and Pat is just unintentional comedy gold.
I've had a look - a useful reminder of why I try to avoid Twitter where possible.
His twitter is like GoT, you just don't know whom are going to get it next.
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 23 November, 2020, 08:04:27 PM
Simon Bowland suggested he be more respectful of other creators. Mills told him to "fuck off".
The Simon Bowland thing was awful. Bowland's point was a reasonable one and politely put. It certainly didn't merit that response (or Dan McDaid piling on). The whole thing was just depressing. I give Pat Mills a lot of slack, but my respect for the man took a real hammering yesterday.
He's been bad mouting people on twitter for weeks now and showering everyone with some seriously terrible takes on seemingly anything that comes to mind.
He hillariously keeps talking about how spacewarp is targeted at a youth audience except it's a black and white self published book that he's selling exclusively to people who follow him on social media.
Quote from: Super Mario on 24 November, 2020, 08:43:11 AM
He hillariously keeps talking about how spacewarp is targeted at a youth audience except it's a black and white self published book that he's selling exclusively to people who follow him on social media.
I cannot see that Spacewarp will work for today's young ones. The regen progs is closer to what the target audience want. B/W strips are "old school" and most people today want their comics to be in colour. It is for all those nostalgic 2000AD readers; that can remember with fondness Nemesis and co.
I am also at this point where I lost any respect for uncle Pat, you just do not bad-mouth the people in your industry.
Quote from: CalHab on 24 November, 2020, 08:36:49 AM
The Simon Bowland thing was awful. Bowland's point was a reasonable one and politely put. It certainly didn't merit that response (or Dan McDaid piling on). The whole thing was just depressing. I give Pat Mills a lot of slack, but my respect for the man took a real hammering yesterday.
Vey much this.
I just feel really disappointed.
Quote from: Barrington Boots on 24 November, 2020, 09:21:26 AM
Quote from: CalHab on 24 November, 2020, 08:36:49 AM
The Simon Bowland thing was awful. Bowland's point was a reasonable one and politely put. It certainly didn't merit that response (or Dan McDaid piling on). The whole thing was just depressing. I give Pat Mills a lot of slack, but my respect for the man took a real hammering yesterday.
Vey much this.
I just feel really disappointed.
Agreed. So sad to see him tearing strips off of people who are respectfully disagreeing.
The Brendan McCarthy thing is equally disappointing, to see someone who produces such incredible work put forth such ugly, divisive views. Having seen snippets of his FB and Twitter posts over the year, it is just another sad moment when I realise that some of the people who produce the stuff I most value, and cherish, are terrible arseholes.
I note Mills couldn't resist adding the Hachette Finn decision to his anti-Rebellion thinking. Then a 2000 AD scribe noted that, given everything going on in the UK right now, Finn's... narrative position on certain topics—Jewish tropes, say— probably doesn't make it the smartest book to put out there.
As for Spacewarp, he seems buoyed by people sending him photos of their kids holding issues. Fair enough if it does find that audience and there is a point to be made about comics accessibility these days. They are expensive. They lack grit. But I'm also getting increasingly miffed with people who mistake inclusivity for regression and being "woke". Still: all of this is his call and feels calculated. He's best hope when the dust settles abs he offers 2000 AD another series of Defoe or ABC Warriors that the then Tharg doesn't say no thanks.
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 24 November, 2020, 09:38:06 AM
I note Mills couldn't resist adding the Hachette Finn decision to his anti-Rebellion thinking. Then a 2000 AD scribe noted that, given everything going on in the UK right now, Finn's... narrative position on certain topics—Jewish tropes, say— probably doesn't make it the smartest book to put out there.
I thought that I read that
Finn was due for a reprint sometime in the future, or am I misremembering?
Pat Mills oh dear. Is he unwell? I also wonder if Spacewarp isn't quite the success he hoped & he's now lashing out as some bizarre form of publicity. Whatever the reason sad to see all this & very hard to defend his rants.
Quote from: dweezil2 on 24 November, 2020, 09:47:31 AM
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 24 November, 2020, 09:38:06 AM
I note Mills couldn't resist adding the Hachette Finn decision to his anti-Rebellion thinking. Then a 2000 AD scribe noted that, given everything going on in the UK right now, Finn's... narrative position on certain topics—Jewish tropes, say— probably doesn't make it the smartest book to put out there.
I thought that I read that Finn was due for a reprint sometime in the future, or am I misremembering?
Yeah, I thought Finn
was slated for the Ultimate Collection extension-extension? I personally wouldn't be eager to see it thrust into the light, as it's one of my least favourite of his strips*. Not quite Greysuit, but getting there.
Note: this isn't knocking Pat's work, he holds by far the lion's share of my comics shelves: just don't care for those two.
The forum is cancelling Pat Mills? It must be a Tuesday.
Quote from: Professor Bear on 24 November, 2020, 10:38:07 AM
The forum is cancelling Pat Mills? It must be a Tuesday.
No it isn't cancelling him.
No? I think everyone would welcome Mills writing for the prog. He made his own decision to take his ball and run off.
I just think he's completely full of it. There's no way he's regularly reading Dredd and his comments about other writers' contributions to the strip are well off the mark. He's obviously entitled to his opinion (although it is transparently a made up one) but there's no need for him to be rude towards other contributors.
All he is doing is peacocking to his wee group of admirers, who are lapping it up, and it's all a bit pathetic.
Quote from: TordelBack on 24 November, 2020, 10:28:35 AM
Quote from: dweezil2 on 24 November, 2020, 09:47:31 AM
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 24 November, 2020, 09:38:06 AM
I note Mills couldn't resist adding the Hachette Finn decision to his anti-Rebellion thinking. Then a 2000 AD scribe noted that, given everything going on in the UK right now, Finn's... narrative position on certain topics—Jewish tropes, say— probably doesn't make it the smartest book to put out there.
I thought that I read that Finn was due for a reprint sometime in the future, or am I misremembering?
Yeah, I thought Finn was slated for the Ultimate Collection extension-extension? I personally wouldn't be eager to see it thrust into the light, as it's one of my least favourite of his strips*. Not quite Greysuit, but getting there.
Note: this isn't knocking Pat's work, he holds by far the lion's share of my comics shelves: just don't care for those two.
Oh, I rather liked
Greysuit, it had enough
MACH-1 stylings, gonzo WTF moments and fantastic John Higgins art to appeal to me and it's quintessential
Pat Mills in my opinion.
Was rather fond of
Finn back in the day too, in the Prog, so a collection would save me going through my old comic boxes.
Quote from: TordelBack on 24 November, 2020, 10:28:35 AMYeah, I thought Finn was slated for the Ultimate Collection extension-extension?
Yes: it's down for 112–140 at some point. But given some of the tropes within, it's perhaps not the smartest inclusion. But there you go.
As for cancelling, I can only assume Professor Bear was joking, unless he's Lawrence Fox in disguise or something.
I liked some of those Wanderer stories, like Carnival, Murderball and so on. It does seem like Slaine's story has been told, but they were still enjoyable. Slaine stories didn't always have to be epic and massively consequential - Sky Chariots was great, of course, but so were the Beast ones (Time, Shoggy and In the Broch).
Quote from: Professor Bear on 24 November, 2020, 10:38:07 AM
The forum is cancelling Pat Mills? It must be a Tuesday.
I don't think that's the case, ever. It's a discussion,
almost every post of which (correctly) states the position "Pat Mills is amazing, we owe him so much, wish he wasn't leaving, but wish him success", but goes on to add "also wish he wasn't being mean about 2000AD and fellow creatives". I don't think the two ideas are incomPatible.
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 24 November, 2020, 11:15:49 AM
Quote from: TordelBack on 24 November, 2020, 10:28:35 AMYeah, I thought Finn was slated for the Ultimate Collection extension-extension?
Yes: it's down for 112–140 at some point. But given some of the tropes within, it's perhaps not the smartest inclusion. But there you go.
As for cancelling, I can only assume Professor Bear was joking, unless he's Lawrence Fox in disguise or something.
Aye, any time the Bear sounds like Katie Hopkin, we can usually assume he's taking the piss. I seem to remember that he and semi-troll Godpleton (RIP) have at least been in each other's company.
I remember the Freemason stuff but I can't remember the Jewish tropes in Finn -,must likely I didn't get them at the time. Could yous remind me? The small-town Irish gossip hound in me is also dying to know who this Christian was that sparked the bizarre exchange with Brendan McCarthy.
Quote from: TordelBack on 24 November, 2020, 11:21:45 AM
I don't think the two ideas are incomPatible.
I think we all need to stop for a second and reflect on the genius that is TordelBack.
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 24 November, 2020, 11:47:42 AM
Quote from: TordelBack on 24 November, 2020, 11:21:45 AM
I don't think the two ideas are incomPatible.
I think we all need to stop for a second and reflect on the genius that is TordelBack.
Oh bloody hell, I missed that one. Bravo.
Quote from: TordelBack on 24 November, 2020, 11:21:45 AMI don't think the two ideas are incomPatible.
(https://i.redd.it/ge0v1co8q3e51.jpg)
I was, of course, making a flippant remark, as is my wont.
Quote from: Professor Bear on 24 November, 2020, 12:07:11 PM
I was, of course, making a flippant remark, as is my wont.
It's well I know you're mien, but I could just see quotes of that phrase peppering my Twitter feed, and felt like getting a denial in first. It's the price of being an Influencer, Prof.
(https://i.imgur.com/Hs8qc51.png)
Quote from: M.I.K. on 23 November, 2020, 08:29:41 PM
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 23 November, 2020, 08:04:27 PM
Simon Bowland suggested he be more respectful of other creators. Mills told him to "fuck off".
...and wondered how Pat could form an opinion if he hadn't even read what he was slagging off, which I've noticed Mr. Mills seems to have a habit of.
My reading of it was Pat objected to the question as to how he could form an opinion of Dredd writers if he hadn't read any. He went on to say that he had read "some from time to time".
So why did Simon Bowland question whether Pat had actually read any Dredds.?
Surely Pat's tweet earlier that day is purely coincidental: " I dont read current Dredds. I prefer to remember him the way he was when John wrote him full time".
Quote from: Magnetica on 24 November, 2020, 07:19:26 PM
Quote from: M.I.K. on 23 November, 2020, 08:29:41 PM
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 23 November, 2020, 08:04:27 PM
Simon Bowland suggested he be more respectful of other creators. Mills told him to "fuck off".
...and wondered how Pat could form an opinion if he hadn't even read what he was slagging off, which I've noticed Mr. Mills seems to have a habit of.
My reading of it was Pat objected to the question as to how he could form an opinion of Dredd writers if he hadn't read any. He went on to say that he had read "some from time to time".
So why did Simon Bowland question whether Pat had actually read any Dredds.?
Surely Pat's tweet earlier that day is purely coincidental: " I dont read current Dredds. I prefer to remember him the way he was when John wrote him full time".
Didn't realise that... this whole situation is just getting odder and odder. Ah well, I can't wait for the new Wagner Dredd anyway. Also, while I was gutted that Al Ewing left the Dredd stable - he'd be the perfect Dredd writer if John wasn't already - Kenneth Niemand is stepping up to the task very nicely.
... and then there's this weeks damage report...
A Facebook locale, recently:
Mod A Post: Pat told a colleague to eff off!
User A: Go Pat!
User B: Go Pat!
User C: Go Pat!
User D: Pat's a victim in all this.
Mod A: I hear that.
User E: Pat's a victim in all this.
User F: Go Pat!
Mod A: Pat's the voice of the working class!
User G: He's right about everything!
User H: People who disagree with us are shit eaters.
Mod A: Being controversial is aces! Rennie's a twat, though.
User I: Everything can be solved through the application of violence.
User G: Mod A is also a victim in all this.
User H: I love Mod A - but I'm not gay!
User F: Twitter is better than 2000 AD!
User J: Telling people to eff off isn't fair.
User A: Pat's a victim in all this.
Mod A: User J - your opinion is baseless.
Mod B: Go Pat! User J can eff off!
User K: Check out the ego on Mills, though.
User L: Pat's right about everything.
Mod A: Pat's right about everything.
User F: People who criticise Pat have baseless opinions.
Mod A: We welcome those people, though. (Although their opinions are baseless.)
...
Mod A: Go Pat!
Funt Solo nails it!
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 23 November, 2020, 11:54:53 PM
I've had a look - a useful reminder of why I try to avoid Twitter where possible.
I've never used it, and as a result reading threads like this is like some kind of nerd Cluedo.
My take on the whole thing is this; sometimes celebs / comics creators will say something provocative, and depending on who they are, it can barely register as a shoulder shrug.
Pat Mills is one such creator - at the end of the day
he's Pat Mills.
If the guy wanted to punch me in the face I'd be reluctant to hurt his knuckles.
A tangential change of topic: how much damage has social media (i.e. Twitter) caused for the comic book industry?
Probably more that shit-stirring websites like Bleedingcool, I'd wager.
Quote from: Link Prime on 25 November, 2020, 09:58:05 AM
Pat Mills is one such creator - at the end of the day he's Pat Mills.
If the guy wanted to punch me in the face I'd be reluctant to hurt his knuckles.
Beautifully put.
Like any social networking system, the anonymity of Twitter enables people to act in a certain way that they might or might not do in real life. The enforced terseness of discourse (through 280-character bites) does not help. But it is also a public forum, and there's a difference between being provocative and getting tangled up in discourse that is in some cases inaccurate and in other cases just flat-out rude. Telling Bowland to "fuck off" was unnecessary, to say the least.
In a more general sense, social media has been a boon and a disaster, depending on specific moments. It allows people to get the word out. It allows people to converse. Some are very open. Jamie Smart is perhaps the nicest person in comics, and I've had some lovely conversations with him. Sean Phillips has provided answers to people about upcoming plans for his books, allowing fans to make informed decisions.
But gaining insight into people can be a double-edged sword. Plenty of Rowling fans have had their passion poisoned by her viewpoints in trans. Smiths fans have to juggle their love for music with Morrissey being a prick. Same with Ian Brown, who's gone full-on anti-vaxx. This is just as true for comics, where you discover people like Brendan McCarthy is a right-wing Trumper who's sceptical about COVID.
For some people, none of this matters. For some, the positives outweigh the negatives. (I would place myself in that bracket.) For others, the opposite is true. For comics as a whole, I suspect it comes out even, despite the ongoing culture war that seeks to place people into distinct camps, and—frankly— white middle-aged men getting their knickers in a twist about other people having the audacity to like comics too (and want material aimed at people other than white middle-aged men).
I gave up reading said Facebook group after their main response to the most recent Regened prog was to do an audit of every minority character that appeared in it.
I didn't spot that. Assuming it's the same one, the most recent posts in my feed were all of Hershey in various states of undress (while people bitched and complained, without irony, about how the Hershey strip itself had cheated a character out of a respectful death).
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 25 November, 2020, 11:03:34 AM
.... Telling Bowland to "fuck off" was unnecessary, to say the least.....
For me it is not unnecessary but rather unfounded and shows a lack of professionalism.
That and his tendency to quote-tweet every response, thereby ensuring all his followers see such remarks. Perhaps he doesn't know how to use Twitter properly. If he does, that's just encouraging pile-ons. (Not that this happened earlier this week—the reverse seemed to be the case.)
Apart from having zero interest in commiting photos of my spawn to perpetual record or sharing how cold it was on my morning run with people I went to school with but haven't seen in 30 years, and absolutely hating its bizarre Heraclitean 'news' format, I find Facebook group pages to have the most irritating population of all the social media platforms.
Irrespective of the efforts of group managers/hosts/whatever to provide and steer relevant content, the comments just fill up with ill-informed entitlement. And to be clear I'm not specifically talking about 2000AD or comics here, I mean everything I've ever taken an interest in.
A recent personal audit of various Irish social media/news options left me in no doubt that racist sexist anti-science bullshit has gone from 'annoyingly prevalent' to 'completely dominant'. In fact Twitter, with its ability to closely define your own feed in the manner of sticking fingers in one's ears and humming loudly, and TikTok, with its abundance of super-brief feel-good frippery, are better experiences than most.
But I have to turn all this shit off a good 2 hours before I plan to sleep, or it's a long night of bruxism for me. Except here of course, which is positively somnolent by comparison (in a good if-not-conducive-to-growth way)
I'm going to stick my oar in here and just let people know that screenshots of this thread are being displayed in at least one other forum on the internet. Namely the 2000ad subforum on gallifreybase.com, and specifically Gordon Rennies words about Pat Mills.
Might be an idea to keep that in mind.
SBT
-fights urge to moon screen-
It's kinda cool to be simultaneously irrelevant old men grumbling at each other in an emptying room and quotable internet sensations.
Hello! :lol:
Hey, why not? The forum's already regularly scanned for titbits by a certain Facebook locale.
Alternatively, every single post to this thread should from now on contain the phrase "Doctor Who is a load of shit and hasn't been any good since 1982".
SBT
Actually, is it not a good idea for a mod to split the last five or six pages off into their own thread?
Quote from: SmallBlueThing(Reborn) on 26 November, 2020, 05:40:35 PM
I'm going to stick my oar in here and just let people know that screenshots of this thread are being displayed in at least one other forum on the internet. Namely the 2000ad subforum on gallifreybase.com, and specifically Gordon Rennies words about Pat Mills.
Might be an idea to keep that in mind.
SBT
Sorry 'bout that!!
Quote from: SmallBlueThing(Reborn) on 26 November, 2020, 05:40:35 PM
I'm going to stick my oar in here and just let people know that screenshots of this thread are being displayed in at least one other forum on the internet. Namely the 2000ad subforum on gallifreybase.com, and specifically Gordon Rennies words about Pat Mills.
Might be an idea to keep that in mind.
SBT
So what?
Possibly a polite reminder that although there are a limited number of forumites these days this is still a very public place?
Mr Mills may not be overly concerned about the opinions of a small, obsessive group of readers but extreme behaviour has resulted in lampooning in print in the past, no?
Imagine how much sleep I'll lose tonight worrying about what the ming mongs (copyright Russell T Davies) of Gallifrey Base are saying.
Once again, I'm sorry for any offence caused by bringing it to the attention of Galifrey Base. I didn't know (and still don't) how to blank the images in question.
Quote from: Dark Jimbo on 26 November, 2020, 06:04:33 PM
Actually, is it not a good idea for a mod to split the last five or six pages off into their own thread?
It's a good idea in theory. It was a pain in the arse in reality. On balance, I rate this topic split THREE VCS OUT OF FIVE
(https://i.imgur.com/Aj9ytDj.png)
Quote from: Batman's Superior Cousin on 26 November, 2020, 07:29:36 PM
Once again, I'm sorry for any offence caused by bringing it to the attention of Galifrey Base. I didn't know (and still don't) how to blank the images in question.
You did nothing wrong lad. In the Old Days maybe we harboured illusions, but cross-posting between different public forums is the lifeblood of Web 2-point-Bleurgh. It's only an issue if something was intended to be private, an email or DM, say - we all know now that we are spewing into the luminiferous aether, eternal and infinite.
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 26 November, 2020, 07:52:55 PMOn balance, I rate this topic split THREE VCS OUT OF FIVE
We thank you for your service.
Or SUCK IT UP, WORM!
Whichever suits.
Quote from: Dark Jimbo on 26 November, 2020, 05:52:01 PM
Hey, why not? The forum's already regularly scanned for titbits by a certain Facebook locale.
Screenshot Wullie. It's been his MO for years.
The thing that gets me about Mills' selective interpretation of the rights of the creator (well one of the many things that get me), is that it seems entirely at odds with his oft-espoused very far left, anti-authoritarian politics.
You don't get to write Slaine (and Finn and post-Black Hole ABC Warriors) as mouthpieces for your political bent, venting about man trying to own everything and how we should all leave aside this petty need for control and submit to the Earth Goddess/Gaia/Heckate/Mars, then say "these toys are all mine and no-one else gets to play with them!" It makes him myopic at best and downright hypocritical at worst.
I know there are stories where Mills' authorial voice is so strong that no-one else could possibly continue them, but there are plenty of cases where his authorial voice has long been the problem, undermining otherwise excellent characters and settings (ABC Warriors would be, for me, the shining example here).
The issue for me is when a writer crosses a line from being subversive to being preachy. Mills at his best upends conventions, is disruptive, and has a cutting satire to his work. But too many more recent series have tended towards blog post rants as strips. Sláine was particularly baffling with that ALL CAPS shouting match—not least after the lovely set-up to Brutania.
Quote from: credo on 27 November, 2020, 10:43:54 AM
You don't get to write Slaine (and Finn and post-Black Hole ABC Warriors) as mouthpieces for your political bent [...] then say "these toys are all mine and no-one else gets to play with them!" It makes him myopic at best and downright hypocritical at worst.
Really can't agree with this. Whatever way Mills' views and researches find expression in his fiction can't be used to hold him to account in real life. I doubt, for one unfairly cherry-picked example, that Pat really thinks a dwarf benefits from a good daily beating. He has plenty of non-fiction comment and writing that are fair game for this type of accusation of hypocrisy, sometimes within the same page! (As do most of us, in line with Cardinal Richlieu).
Similarly, that his fiction work shaped my early political and philosophical worldview is my fault for taking my information from comics, not his.
Quote from: credo on 27 November, 2020, 10:43:54 AM
The thing that gets me about Mills' selective interpretation of the rights of the creator (well one of the many things that get me), is that it seems entirely at odds with his oft-espoused very far left, anti-authoritarian politics.
You don't get to write Slaine (and Finn and post-Black Hole ABC Warriors) as mouthpieces for your political bent, venting about man trying to own everything and how we should all leave aside this petty need for control and submit to the Earth Goddess/Gaia/Heckate/Mars, then say "these toys are all mine and no-one else gets to play with them!" It makes him myopic at best and downright hypocritical at worst.
I get where you're coming from, but artists and creators are stuck in a capitalistic society just trying to get by like everyone else. In a perfect world we'd live in a society that shares every resource anyone could need, where folk get all the food and shelter they require, all the education, healthcare etc, including art and literature, where things are fair and equitable and maybe money is just not required.
But we don't, sadly, and those that would prefer us to achieve that kind of society still have to scrabble about in the dirt like the rest of us, trying to make ends meet.
It's kind of like pointing out the hypocrisy of environmental protestors who wear nylon made from oil, or mobile phones made with precious metals strip-mined at great cost to life and landscape - they'd prefer not to have to exist in this dying world, but are forced to while they push for something better.
Wanting to change society for the better shouldn't excluded you from participating in society as it stands. Know what I mean?
(https://thenib.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/mister-gotcha-4-9faefa-1.jpg)
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 26 November, 2020, 10:56:07 PM
Quote from: Dark Jimbo on 26 November, 2020, 05:52:01 PM
Hey, why not? The forum's already regularly scanned for titbits by a certain Facebook locale.
Screenshot Wullie. It's been his MO for years.
Careful - it seems like mentioning Lord Wuldermort by name causes disturbances in the Narciverse. Apparently, it's all Rennie's fault? Probably best just to un-ban Frullie - the temper tantrum's lasted almost an entire year now.
I recall at a recent general election (2015?), The Green Party went off on one about copyright. Their cunning plan was to broadly eradicate it, because in their utopia, this would mean everyone could benefit. When I challenged Green members about this, I was told that creative people should just create new things rather than relying on earning from old ones forever. I was, to put it mildly, unimpressed. (Caroline Lucas, to her credit, actually listened. She convened a meeting of creatives in Brighton who explained why the then Green policy was shit, and it did subsequently change.)
All of which is to say you can be left-wing and liberal and still want to retain ownership over things you create, and to make a living from them. I would never, ever argue Mills doesn't have that right. Where things become more problematic is when his arguments about creator rights are inconsistently applied (e.g. with Accident Man) and, to some (albeit not much) extent, when he's happy writing other people's characters but fumes when anything at all is done with even his minor players.
In short, I'm happy with more Strontium Dog appearing in the Prog, on the basis Wagner's okayed it. I wouldn't be thrilled if someone else wrote Sláine expressly against Mills's wishes. (The John Smith stuff is, of course, in the former camp, on the basis of his Facebook posts, although how the destination was reached remains unfortunate.)
Is this a merged thread? If so, dont forget the Forthcoming Thrills 2020 bit!
This is a split thread, not a merged one.
Good call from the mods there. It really wasn't a thread about forthcoming thrills any more.
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 27 November, 2020, 07:52:06 PM
This is a split thread, not a merged one.
Makes sense - the only thing I was highlighting in the 2020 thread pertinent to this discussion I can sum up in two points:
Firstly, Pat used to rightly believe that comics were tilted off course by the intervention of a tiny group of fanatics - that he is engaged in some kind of feedback loop of self confirmation with such people strikes me as a little sad.
Secondly, While I agree with him about Creator Rights and the fact I don't want to see anyone else working on his creations once he goes, his recent "revelations" about John Sanders 1988 offer to consider setting up a more equitable system soured me on the whole affair - looked to me like there was an opening door that Pat was aware of and did nothing about. I'll be first in the queue for Sanders upcoming book
to quote myself:
Quote from: Leigh S on 25 November, 2020, 05:24:07 PM
Sanders note is a generic "we can accommodate the concerns, but comics publishing isn't book publishing, and if they want to run it along different lines we can, but they have to understand once they pay out for the infrastructure we provide, there wont be as much left on the table as they think"
He then mentions Alan in the final paragraph, but its clear the offer extends beyond him.
Full memo here
https://www.millsverse.com/mr-mills-exceedingly-good-cakes/ (https://www.millsverse.com/mr-mills-exceedingly-good-cakes/)
Tell me that isnt Sanders offering creators some form of what Pat is after. Note the offer is clearly aimed at multiple creators (unless Alan Moore would be at his own throat!)
Yeah—sorry, Leigh. The thread was a bit of a mix and I had to make a decision as to what went where. If I left some of your bits in the wrong spot, that certainly wasn't my intention.
As for the points you raise, Mills is right in that 2000 AD lost its way. The Loaded era was a shambolic mess. This wasn't about growing up, but instead being a directionless vessel, alienating your existing readers but not really finding new ones either. What he disagrees with is that the comic found its way again. As Mills would have it, comics these days are missing the point by not being like they were in the 1970s.
The Sanders memo blog post is some epic cherry picking. He concentrates mostly on the bitchy notes regarding creators being at each-other's throats but dismisses the substance. It's not entirely clear what Sanders was aiming for here—a kind of co-op, seemingly, rather than something closer to today's Image model. But back then, that would have been quite something.
I also only just noticed Mills's point regarding books not being collected. This was something he was recently complaining about on Twitter regarding his own stories. He's right in that not everything has been collected, but, man, if you were a random onlooker checking out Rebellion's collected editions to date, you'd be hard-pressed to consider Mills hard done by on that regard. Not only does he have loads, he has the lion's share of deluxe HC volumes.
...Toxic...