The Political Thread

[Professor Bear]

Don't be dispirited, Jim.  I can't walk five feet without seeing where some kid has chalked a pro-NHS hashtag on the pavement, or a window with a rainbow in it, or a banner with the word "hope" on it.  Whatever else is going on, it's a confusing time to be a cynic.

People committed to socialism had already come to the conclusion it wasn't going to happen through the parliamentary Labour Party even as they loaned it their support in the early days of Corbyn's leadership, latest developments have only made it apparent to anyone else who was still under the impression that a societal overhaul required only one elderly vegetarian who is willing to listen and nothing else.
A movement with aims counter to the global suicide cult of capitalism was always going to have to make its own arrangements outside the political establishment, and it can be done - just look at the year-long street protests in France, the anarchist communes springing up around issues like the Wet'suwet'en protest, or the global rent and labor strikes currently taking place.

I realise none of this is very helpful at a time where you probably want to hear a concrete plan for what we do next.  I wouldn't mind knowing myself, tbh.

sticking with something that's repeatedly failed and trying again is getting close to that definition of madness people like to talk about.

I agree with your assessment of capitalism and/or centrism, and that it is time to try something else.

[Professor Bear]

Also: some other stuff happened today, summed up by this Twitter thread.
In a nutshell, the US mounted a military operation against Venezuela's government which failed when one disaster after another occurred, ending with the mercenaries being owned by a bunch of fishermen.  Not pictured in the thread is the helmet they took off one of the "stealth deep cover operatives" which to me looked to me like Rick Moranis' helmet from Spaceballs but with a huge US flag on it, which was tweeted without a hint of irony by journalists in response to people asking "yeah but how do we know this guy was American?"

[IndigoPrime]

Isn't that THE definition of Starmer?  Miliband mkII?

My point was more that Labour repeatedly did poorly at several elections, and so giving him another crack would have been nuts. Yes, press, etc, but that doesn't matter. You work within the frameworks and limitations you have. And for every Lib Dem and SNP member who fucked us over with that election, we still have the fact Corbyn would not step aside temporarily and have another Labour figure lead a GNU.

His team's policies were often good, but frequently also incoherent. His handling of some stuff was fine, but other times not. His followers were too often inconsistent in their beliefs (undying devotion to Corbyn and zero tolerance of critics, for a man who'd spent much of his life going against his own party), and so on. So at this point, you have to try something else, because this approach was just not going anywhere. (And when you have Labour heartland voters ditching Corbyn for Johnson, you really do have a problem.)

We'll never know, because Tom Watson and his buddies actively sabotaged the 2017 election and now it looks like the racist bullies who gave a free pass to the tiny number of antisemites in the Labour Party in order to manufacture a 'crisis' will get away without so much as a slap on the wrist. It's all colossally depressing.

Although various sources (including Remainiacs) have suggested that's not actually the case when you read through the report. Note: I have not read the report, but I intend to. (Their reading was more that Labour has a big problem with factionalism, and that attempting to state 'Blairites' were to blame for antisemitism when Corbyn and his people had control of basically every facet of the party is a massive stretch, even going by all the shit in that report.)

But even if 2017 was a lost opportunity, it and 2019 still showcase Labour's basic arrogance and unwillingness to play with others. Throughout Corbyn's entire leadership, he's talked a lot about democracy, but come down firmly on not changing our broken electoral system for the Commons — because otherwise Labour cannot lead alone. (Corbyn is pro-Lords reform, although I suspect primarily because that would annihilate Lib Dems and crossbenchers and result in a greater proportion of Labour members in the upper house.)

He's been against any form of coalition, because that would require compromise and consensus. Right now, I'm not sure Starmer's looking any better on that — but then in terms of electoral reform Labour seems to revert to type after sometimes making positive noises, no matter who's leading. (I will never forgive Blair for his junking of the Jenkins Report, and even now he's still in denial about FPTP and the benefits of PR to Labour, let alone the UK as a whole. But the party would seemingly prefer to win one election in three or four outright than end up much more often leading a progressive left/centre coalition.)

sticking with something that's repeatedly failed and trying again is getting close to that definition of madness people like to talk about.

I agree with your assessment of capitalism and/or centrism, and that it is time to try something else.

I agree also. I am a floating voter, but my general tendencies are liberal (NOT libertarian) and somewhat left (unless I take a political compass poll, in which case I'm very much bottom-left corner). I'd like to see UBI, PR, much heavier taxes on the rich (no reason why marginal rates shouldn't go way north of 50%), stronger worker rights, and ratio caps on employee payments. All Green policies in recent years, but Labour has only taken on some of them — and watered down others. (Its tax tiers in 2017 were less progressive than the Lib Dem ones(!), a point McDonnell batted away with excuses about electability — so god knows what happened with 2019's policy free-for-all.)

In short, I want a fairer society where more people have a say. Corbyn got a lot right, but was badly wrong with politics itself, his own ideology as trump card (not least whipping Labour against SNP motions, even if they were precisely what we needed), and an inability to work with other parties for the common good.

[Jim_Campbell]

Although various sources (including Remainiacs) have suggested that's not actually the case when you read through the report. Note: I have not read the report, but I intend to. (Their reading was more that Labour has a big problem with factionalism, and that attempting to state 'Blairites' were to blame for antisemitism when Corbyn and his people had control of basically every facet of the party is a massive stretch, even going by all the shit in that report.)

It's undeniable that McNicoll sat on the Chakrabarti Report for a year and literally no action was taken on it until he was replaced by Formby. By that stage, the hysteria war was out of control, and presenting even undisputable facts about the tiny extent of the problem was just met with howls of outrage that the party was "in denial".

There were many, many reports from party workers on the ground the day after the 2017 election complaining that they'd had no resources for campaigning in winnable marginals whilst nearby safe seats had money and staff poured into them.

A charitable reading, before the leaked report, was that this was down to incompetence but the report has centrist/Blairite MPs and staff in their own words explicitly stating that it was intentional and deliberate, with the aim of damaging Corbyn and his allies.

[Professor Bear]

There's a concerted gaslighting effort by many pundits - including the Remainiacs podcast presenters - to downplay and dismiss the contents of the leaked report, but you don't have to have read or understood it to comprehend that it isn't being reported upon in the same way as anecdotal antisemitism accusations were - and considering the report is based on documentary evidence, this seems a bit odd at the very least, as is Starmer's bizarre vow to track down the whistleblower given his profile as a McLibel consultant.

an inability to work with other parties for the common good.

"Corbyn wouldn't work with others" - the assertion that the problems came from only one direction - is doing a bit of heavy lifting there, especially if we're to take your comment about doing the same thing over and over again at face value.  The LibDems' history of claiming they'll work with Labour if X leader would only step aside has been proven a lie time and again, most notably when Gordon Brown called their bluff, and while I have a soft spot for Ed Milliband for standing up for his late father against the Daily Mail's antisemitic attacks, he arguably nixed a Lab/SNP coalition ever happening under Sturgeon, as she took a risk in asking him on live tv, only to get arguably the only unambiguous assertion he ever made thrown in her face.  I'm not saying she'd never form a coalition with Labour, but she's clearly more cautious about the notion than she used to be.

[IndigoPrime]

"Corbyn wouldn't work with others" - the assertion that the problems came from only one direction

Not really. This isn't just about that moment in time, but his ongoing stamping out of any effort to have Labour support electoral reform, and his multiple whipping against amendments during the Brexit debates that came from the SNP. Basically, if it wasn't a Labour idea, it could just fuck right off. And any attempt to change the system to make it more representative wasn't of interest — it had to benefit Labour. This isn't about the Lib Dems. This is about the UK having a shit democracy, and Labour throughout my lifetime being a roadblock to that, with no interest on giving up its occasional shot at power, for a likely scenario where it would lead a coalition.

The LibDems' history of claiming they'll work with Labour if X leader would only step aside has been proven a lie time and again, most notably when Gordon Brown called their bluff

Except the numbers weren't there (it would have been a minority government), and even Labour figures at the time said they weren't really interested, and they refused to compromise on basically anything.

I'm just fucking sick of it all. We live in a democratic environment that's barely moved on in hundreds of years. We talk of "hung parliaments", which other countries simply call "parliaments" because that's what they are. Labour perpetuates this — it enables this state of being. Of course, the Tories do as well, but they are arseholes, and that will always be the case. Labour could and should be better. In this area, it isn't. And the reason it isn't is because it refuses the notion that anyone other than it should rule — and rule alone.

(And when people vote for any other party, they are slammed into the ground, even when they note that they would have backed Labour had Labour moved on electoral reform, but chose not to. Neatly, I've also been harassed by Corbyn followers for criticising him, and then branded a Tory for voting Green. Because, yeah, lots of overlap between Green and Tory policy. Again: Labour must be better — all wings.)

[Tjm86]

I have to be honest, I've been a quiet and despondent Labour member for a number of years now.  When Milliband folded and Corbyn was put up as a 'joke' candidate I have to admit to supporting him.  Not as a joke but rather because he was the best option on the table at the time.  There was a brief moment when he first took the reins that I thought we might see something positive moving forward.  It definitely did not last.

When Owen Smith decided to stand against him when the PLP decided to have a go at toppling him it was clear that there was a gulf between the party and the PLP, that Corbyn was getting nowhere fast and was doing more harm than good.  That said, Owen Smith was not much better (and I say this in spite of his being our local MP).

The 'antisemitism crisis' was a strange beast though.  You had a mixture of incredibly dated, highly edited video snippets and twitter threads / Facebook posts, selectively quoted articles and misrepresented pictures.  His position on Israeli treatment of Palestinians was often presented as something other than it was although quite often he didn't leave his opponents with much work to do.  The groundswell of antisemitism in the party seems quite hard to pin down despite the coverage given to it.

The last year or so though Corbyn has gone from bad to worse.  Leaving aside the ammo he kept giving his critics, his refusal to engage constructively and his inability to bring May to task despite it being such an insanely easy task for all she was doing, his refusal to call out the referendum campaign for what it really was has to be the most galling offence.  Especially when he kept banging on, a la May, about "hearing what the people have said and get Brexit done ..."  It's taken a lot to keep my membership going.

[Professor Bear]

I've asked this before so apologies if I missed the answer, but what was the end goal of "bring May to task"?  In tangible terms, I mean?  What would constitute "winning"?
I'm just curious what this might have involved apart from getting her to call an election or resign or something.

Anyway, all this is moot, as I for one can't wait to see what the dream team of Starmer and Raynor do with their 20 point lead.

[Leigh S]

So I'm a bit confused by "Obamagate", but the jist of it appears to be Intelligence services tried to stop Russia's illegal attempts to help Trump get elected, so Obama himself was therefore interfering in the election? A bit like the Joker saying that Batman is the true villain becaue he was stopping me rob banks and we all hate banks, right?

[Dandontdare]

Obamagate is nothing more than a PR intervention to deflect attention from the administration's catastrophic failures. Doubleplusbad.

I have to be honest, I've been a quiet and despondent Labour member for a number of years now.

I feel your pain.

Labour has a big problem with factionalism

Enlarged for truth: When I was a student, newly bathed in the white-hot fire of socialist enlightenment, many political discourses were conducted in the snug of the Ladywell Tavern in Dundee, a tiny space, smaller than my current bedroom. I recall one occasion that brought home the farce of it - a table of SWP and a table of Militant (about 8 people tops, knees almost touching, the room was packed that night) almost ready to come to blows over who was the biggest traitor to the cause. It was a sobering lesson, which I have subsequently seen played out over three decades.

You can't blame disillusioned believers for embracing Corbyn after seeing two "successful" leaders who'd made the trade off between principles and power and had betrayed so much of what labour supporters believed in. When Corbyn was a candidate (and subsequently leader), his opponents' only arguments seemed to be that of course he was right, but realistically we have to be more Tory to get into power, which is a futile argument that I'll always reject.

[Professor Bear]

It's weird but I've actually walked away from more arguments with "centrists" than I ever have with neolibs or commies, as when cornered, centrists just retreat into the position that everyone else is being abusive/unreasonable, or just doesn't understand why they're wrong.  It's hard to escape the notion that British centrism isn't actually a diaspora of political atheists practicing dialectics anymore, and is in fact an entrenched political faction all its own which preaches endorsement of a lost era of rational discourse - if you want to be glib, I guess you could mock its adherents for harking ever-backwards to its golden age where centrism succeeded and would have been great if only it had time to finish its work because it just wasn't implemented properly.

[blackmocco]

So I'm a bit confused by "Obamagate", but the jist of it appears to be Intelligence services tried to stop Russia's illegal attempts to help Trump get elected, so Obama himself was therefore interfering in the election? A bit like the Joker saying that Batman is the true villain becaue he was stopping me rob banks and we all hate banks, right?

Confusion is the idea. Essentially Flynn was being investigated before anyone ever even got elected because he's a slimy bag of shit but naturally, they're trying to twist it into "Obama was spying on my people to sabotage my presidency!" Like it needs any fucking help at this point.

[IndigoPrime]

Dear EU and EFTA citizens: fuck you!

https://www.freemovement.org.uk/it-just-got-more-difficult-for-europeans-to-become-british-citizens/

Excellently, this potentially fucks up Mrs IP's application, which after six months was bumped because they couldn't make a decision in time. YAY UK. (Mrs IP in bits today, and asking why "we are even staying in this fucking country — it only ever makes things harder, not easier". Yeah.)

[JayzusB.Christ]

Dear EU and EFTA citizens: fuck you!

https://www.freemovement.org.uk/it-just-got-more-difficult-for-europeans-to-become-british-citizens/

Excellently, this potentially fucks up Mrs IP's application, which after six months was bumped because they couldn't make a decision in time. YAY UK. (Mrs IP in bits today, and asking why "we are even staying in this fucking country — it only ever makes things harder, not easier". Yeah.)

On the positive side, though, with the way the UK has gone over the last few years, very few of us WANT to be UK citizens.  And I speak as a half-Brit who has the option.

Facetiousness aside, though, that's very saddening and I hope Mrs IP can get her citizenship.

[Funt Solo]

Really sorry to hear that, IP.

I hate Brexit, still. I hate it's divisiveness. I hate the notion that there's something British worth protecting if it means isolationism and the likes of Rees-Mogg getting paid to take cat naps in parliament. I love the European Court of Human Rights. I think Nigel Farage should be pushed off the White Cliffs of Dover into an enormous glass of beer (in which he drowns). And Dominic Cummings should be given herd immunity by having a herd of angry cows stamp him to death.