*** Prog 2000 ***

[I, Cosh]

Congratulations on coming up with an idea worthy of John Wagner's seal of approval, which changed the course of (fictional) history!

You know it wasn't the first time, yeah?

Or maybe it was and I'm getting mixed up with someone else.

[Frank]

If you tell me it was the Legendary Shark's idea for Total War to set off nukes and bring down the established order ... I wouldn't be surprised.

[I, Cosh]

If you tell me it was the Legendary Shark's idea for Total War to set off nukes and bring down the established order ... I wouldn't be surprised.

Arf!

I was thinking about that Strontium Dog story with the tax inspector. Somebody was credited with the idea for that but now I can't remember who.

[JOE SOAP]

My contribution was largely the idea that Fargo didn't die but was put into stasis, but was occasionally wheeled out so as to resolve the Oz/date of death contradiction

Pop-up Fargo is the aspect of Origins I enjoy least, but I appreciate we all enjoy the same characters and stories in many different ways and for many different reasons.

Without the motivating force of the Fargo search I suspect what's left of the bones of Origins could possibly play out as a series of disparate, unmotivated flashbacks - if transposed into a lesser storyline - so even though he's being unduly modest about it's importance, Robin's idea is the bullet that drives the story forward until it hits home in the final pages.


The humdinger ending strikes an apt and sombre tone that prevents it from becoming Weekend at Dreddie's

[Richard]

The slight issue I had with Origins was reconciling Dredd's reaction to the contents of the Cal files with the Origins revelation of Fargo's 'indiscretions'.

I thought the same thing at first, but actually there is a significant difference. In Origins, Fargo had a one night stand in a moment of weakness, which he instantly regretted so much that he resigned over it. He wasn't corrupt or dishonest, he just failed -- once -- to live up to the same standards he'd set for everyone else.

But in The Cal Files the (false) allegation against Fargo was that he'd had a secret affair and abusec his position to procure favours and benefits for his girlfriend, which would be corruption and misuse of power. A very different kettle of fish. So no inconsistency really.

[Steve Green]

If you tell me it was the Legendary Shark's idea for Total War to set off nukes and bring down the established order ... I wouldn't be surprised.

Arf!

I was thinking about that Strontium Dog story with the tax inspector. Somebody was credited with the idea for that but now I can't remember who.

I want to see that guy return, but he's a hardened ex-con, after Alpha even after he's pulled a Hotblack Desiato for 10 years.

[JUDGE BURNS]

No prog 2001 here in Ayrshire , after spending the day in Edinburgh getting loads of books signed I was hoping to relax and read the latest prog.  The Royal Mail in Scotland is terrible these days.  Picture below is of Emma Beeby , Gordon Rennie , Tom Foster and Colin MacNeil.  Sadly, Alan Grant could not make it today .

I'm Ayrshire too, still no Prog 2000 for me!  I just bought it from Smiths.  Need to get round to contacting someone, did I read somewhere that it's not Denise any more?

As I said a few pages back it's been nearly a couple of months since I remember getting the "regular" Saturday prog, mine have been Monday or mostly Tuesday before they turn up, how have yours been?

I have to say, a big draw of subscribing all these years is to get the Prog early - I'm afraid one day early just isn't going to cut it, but I have *just* resubscribed so I suppose I'll have to lump it 

I'm still progless for 2001.   I managed to speak to the postie and he reckons its the KILMARNOCK sorting office that could be  delaying shipment of the progs to us in Ayrshire.

[Frank]

My contribution was largely the idea that Fargo didn't die but was put into stasis, but was occasionally wheeled out so as to resolve the Oz/date of death contradiction

Without the motivating force of the Fargo search I suspect what's left of the bones of Origins could possibly play out as a series of disparate, unmotivated flashbacks ... Robin's idea is the bullet that drives the story forward until it hits home in the final pages.

Leaving aside Robin's justifiable pride and the importance of his contribution, I'm not sure the story would have lost anything if Fargo had spent the entire eighty years since his suicide attempt in suspended animation*.

It's ironic that Zombie Fargo's occasional role as consultant to the Goodman administration entails much more significant changes to the history of the series and the mythology of the character than the minor continuity goof it 'fixed'.

It's just too messy and unlikely, burdening Dredd and the supporting cast with unconvincing explanatory dialogue answering the readers' questions about why Fargo has to stay a secret. I enjoy most of Origins, especially Cadet Dredd(s).


* Rather than repeating the beat of Fargo's sexual indiscretion from The Cal Files - which creates its own continuity problems (see above) - making Eustace's concern that Justice Department was out of control the motivation for eating his service revolver means you could still have that brilliant final scene, where he begs himself to fix the damage he's caused

[JOE SOAP]

Leaving aside Robin's justifiable pride and the importance of his contribution, I'm not sure the story would have lost anything if Fargo had spent the entire eighty years since his suicide attempt in suspended animation*

Yeah, but really my point is that the retro-fixing of a continuity issue is a secondary component of Robin's greater contribution - the idea that Fargo is still alive and in convalescent suspended animation - without that Origins doesn't have the hook needed to make it a story and in particular a flashback story that needs meaningful past/present narrative conjunctions.

This is also in reference to an earlier idea of maybe doing an Origins style story without the Fargo hook -

I like parts of Origins a lot; it would have made a fantastic Blood Cadets mini-series in the Megazine, focusing on Rico and Joe's progress through the Academy, interspersed with flashbacks to Jaxville and the birth of Instant Justice.

It's ironic that Zombie Fargo's occasional role as consultant to the Goodman administration entails much more significant changes to the history of the series and the mythology of the character than the minor continuity goof it 'fixed'.

It's just too messy and unlikely, burdening Dredd and the supporting cast with unconvincing explanatory dialogue answering the readers' questions about why Fargo has to stay a secret. I enjoy most of Origins, especially Cadet Dredd(s).

I am fond of Fargo's re-invoking the Declaration of Independence and think it's worth the price of inclusion but don't think Origins needed to address Judd's insurrection at all nor the late inclusion of Judd sympathisers as bodysnatchers - it seems tangential, like an anti-climactic plot-turn too far after the main story of Booth and the war. OZ is Judd's story and didn't need an abrupt re-telling here - much as the Fargo Clan didn't need the red-herring of a disposable Fargo twin to get them into the story.

* Rather than repeating the beat of Fargo's sexual indiscretion from The Cal Files - which creates its own continuity problems (see above) - making Eustace's concern that Justice Department was out of control the motivation for eating his service revolver means you could still have that brilliant final scene, where he begs himself to fix the damage he's caused

You could easily leave Fago's wig-out at that level and it would work as well but we do lose the idea that he suicided because he's disappointed in himself.

[TordelBack]

Wait, are we saying that a definitive origin story for a character with 30 years of stories behind him shouldn't involved convoluted continuity fixes? Because what we're asking for there is a DC-style reboot. Any post-facto origin had to at least try to have a swing at the various inconsistencies, and Origins makes a virtue of it.

I think Fargo's tortuous half-life adds to the character, his judging of himself as inadequate, and living on to continue serving the city, is a great mirror to the problems of his bloodline: the same exact thing happens to Kraken, and in another variation   to the Dead Man and Rico. Maybe even Nimrod. All live on past their moment of crisis and self-destruction to a drawn-out disfigured existence, with various states of mind.

[Frank]

Wait, are we saying that a definitive origin story for a character with 30 years of stories behind him shouldn't involved convoluted continuity fixes?

To be honest, I have no idea what Oz/Judd related detail Fargo rolling away the stone was supposed to fix.

I assume somebody says Judd made off with Fargo's baby juice 50 years ago, or 30 years ago, or some other time after Fargo should have been dead in his grave.

If you were retconning that, it'd seem less disruptive to the established history of the strip to say Dredd (or whoever) got his dates wrong that one time it was mentioned in passing. I appreciate that those who like Fargo's Lazarus act will take a different view.


DISCLAIMER: DESPITE THE NUMBER OF WORDS I'VE DEVOTED TO THE TOPIC, I'M NOT THAT BOTHERED. I JUST ENJOY A GOOD ARGUMENT

[I, Cosh]

Origins in brief: shite story; truly great ending.

[Fungus]

Origins in brief: shite story; truly great ending.

First read Origins in Hachette form recently and... you've summed it up.

[Robin Low]

To be honest, I have no idea what Oz/Judd related detail Fargo rolling away the stone was supposed to fix.

I assume somebody says Judd made off with Fargo's baby juice 50 years ago, or 30 years ago, or some other time after Fargo should have been dead in his grave.

If you were retconning that, it'd seem less disruptive to the established history of the strip to say Dredd (or whoever) got his dates wrong that one time it was mentioned in passing. I appreciate that those who like Fargo's Lazarus act will take a different view.

Okay, I don't intend to get back into a habit of posting here regularly, so this is a one off because I'm on holiday and have the time to waste. Any comments, please PM them.

Very simply, the date on Fargo's tomb give his death as 2051. Unfortunately, Oz shows Fargo directly involved with Judd in 2071 and Judd himself whinges about Fargo's rejection of his plans.

The following may be of interest to the historians of the comic here. I've found the document I sent to Logan to pass on to John Wagner when the latter asked for some background details after deciding to use the original idea that Fargo was still alive. I've pasted it in below, although without the timeline (which included the non-Dredd stuff). I don't know exactly what, if any, part of it Wagner might have seen himself. Logan may just have used it to check his own information.

The basis of this timeline was the timeline presented in the first Judge Dredd Roleplaying Game from Games Workshop. I believe that it was originally the work of a fan, and appeared in an annual or summer special, but I've never been able to locate that original. However, it does seem to have become the 'standard' history and provided a good basis to work from. Wherever possible, I've checked out its claims – some bits of it were clearly speculation designed to weave together various hints (in particular the sequence of the early Chief Judges of Mega City One) and a few bits are purely made up (such as the civil war between MC1, MC2 and MC3, and the transformation of the latter into Texas City). However, as far as I can tell, none of these things contradict anything in Judge Dredd, they do make sense, and actually add something to the story.

The only major continuity error that I've ever spotted in the Judge Dredd series occurs in the Oz storyline, in which Chief Judge Silver says that Fargo was still Chief Judge after the Atomic Wars of 2070/1 and there's a whole flashback scene with Fargo and Judd. Later in the story, Judd complains bitterly about Fargo. However, this directly contradicts the series itself, as we know from his tomb that Fargo officially died in 2051, and this is supported by the fact that when Chief Judge Goodman is murdered in 2101, he's been in office for a staggering 43 years! A possible explanation for this error is suggested in the entry for 2071 – it's a fudge, but without it we have to ignore the details on Fargo's tomb, ignore the details of Goodman's term in office and then decide on a new date for Fargo's death that would have to be within Dredd's own lifetime! This latter point would mean that Dredd and Fargo would almost certainly have met one another at some point, which just doesn't ring true.

(Incidentally, the new Judge Dredd Roleplaying Games has decided that Fargo died in something like 2085! The game's writers appear to have made this up without any thought for the consequences referred to above.)

The problem facing John W in any Fargo story is this contradiction. It's a toughie: if he goes with the view that Fargo was alive and Chief Judge after the Atomic Wars when the judges gain power on 2070/1, then he has to ignore some previously well-established 'facts'. Alternatively, if he goes with the view that Fargo did 'die' in 2051, as it says on his tomb, then he has a lot more leeway in creating history, but removes Fargo from that pivotal historical moment of the transfer of power from the president to the judges.

I can see one way around this: Fargo official 'dies' in 2051, but is secretly put into suspended-animation until a possible cure is available. However, he is temporarily and secretly revived at the time of the Atomic Wars and the transfer of power from Bad Bob Booth to the judges, and so gets to play some part in the process, although it is not a role that is ever publicly known. Perhaps it is Booth himself (who may still be out in the Cursed Earth after Dredd sentenced him to life) who actually knows where Fargo is hidden in sus-am.

DISCLAIMER: DESPITE THE NUMBER OF WORDS I'VE DEVOTED TO THE TOPIC, I'M NOT THAT BOTHERED. I JUST ENJOY A GOOD ARGUMENT

I tried that for the better part of 20 years, but in my experience a man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest.... mmmm mm mmmm

Regards,

Robin

[TordelBack]

Nicely done Robin, you're still my continuity-nerd idol.

FWIW I don't think Cosh is far off in his assessment of Origins as a whole, but I'd expand it to include the effects of the story and not just the ending. Seeing li'l Joe'n'Rico in action, seeing Dredd confronted with the realities of the mutant experience, learning that Dredd actually knew Fargo, Fargo's mitivations and hopes, and Fargo's own remorseless self-judgement and feelings of failure, and not least crystallising the source of Dredd's doubts: he is the Law, but the Law is wrong at a fundamental level... it all deepened the Dredd character to a considerable degree.