Stupid things people have actually said to you.

[Dandontdare]

Carbon gets released into the atmosphere and taken out again constantly and cyclically. I think the idea is it's not ideal from a human point of view for it all to be released into the atmosphere at the same time.

Obviously if the atmosphere was composed of 50 percent CO2 it wouldnt be good for anything that breathes oxygen but as it is CO2 is what we breathe out and to label what is a natural component of the atmosphere and is essential to plant life as toxic or a poison or a pollutant is idiotic in the extreme.

I'ver avoided addressing your ridiculous pronouncements about climate change up to now, but your basic misunderstanding of science really needs correcting.

Increased levels of CO2 in the atmosphere causes temepratures to rise through the 'greenhouse effect'. Whether or not you want to call this "pollution" is purely a matter of semantics.

In the natutal cycle, carbon is released and absorbed constantly by plants and animals and overall levels reamin roughly the same. In the last few centuries however we have unearthed billions of tons of carbon that was permananently locked into fossil fules below ground and realeased all that CO2 into the atmosphere, causing an overall rise, and therefore a rise in temperature.

It really is that simple, the science is very basic and not open to question, and I am amazed and infuriated that special interest groups have sowed so much doubt and misinformation that we, as a planet, are unlikely to ever get enough consensus to do anything about it.

Idiots who argue that climate moves in cycles anyway have no concept of the timescales. Climate does shift naturally over millenia, but what we're seeing now is noticeable change over just a few hundred years. Even if the natural trend is upwards, not addressing fossil-fuel "pollution" is like saying "this boat already has a slow leak, so it won't matter if I kick a big hole in the bottom".

[Jim_Campbell]

Whilst I don't disagree with anything you've written, DDD, I'm depressed by the dogmatic insistence of the climate change camp that they must win the argument on climate change.

Rightly or wrongly, the waters have been muddied on the issue and I fail to understand why the anti-climate change camp are not pressed on a far more simple issue:

Is the oil going to run out? Yes or No.

Given that we use long-chain hydrocarbons to make plastics, pharmaceuticals and fertilizer, unless we want to do without computers, medicine and food before the end of this century, would it not be sensible to stop burning the fucking things?

This -- it seems to me -- is a much easier argument to win, and one that it is equally necessary to win. If, as a by-product of winning this argument, climate change slows, reverses, or is in some way mitigated, then you win that argument by default and have a cast iron basis to then move forward with tackling other greenhouse drivers, such as deforestation and intensive agriculture practises.

Climate change is too nebulous a concept to persuade people to give up their precious cars and their holidays on the Costa. Ask them to choose between that and food and medicine shortages, and people's minds focus on the question in an entirely different manner ...

Cheers

Jim

[TordelBack]

 

...would it not be sensible to stop burning the fucking things?

Triffids it is then.

The problem with getting the 'honest folks, we're about to run out of oil' fact across it lies with dear old Malthus.  We're now used to dismissing Malthusian threats (except, apparently, when it comes to immigration) by referring to geometric technological advancement as the way out of arithmetic scarcity - also known as the 'something will come along, just you wait and see' approach.  People genuinely believe that somewhere the boffins are busily coming up with a way to make plastic and petrol out of old copies of the Radio Times, and as long as they don't need to do anything that involves DNA, stem cells or radiation, we're all happy enough to let them get on with it.

It's is if we actually believe the sort of scenario peddled in Armageddon or Deep Impact, that the government are secretly working on a  plan that'll save us all.

You would hope that global economic collapse, endless low-level warfare and utterly inadequate response to even short term natural disasters, never mind climate change, would shake people's faith in the invisible genii who are steering the ship, but hey look my Tesco mobile phone has more computing power than the whole of Apollo-era NASA, so it's all going to be fine.

[Dandontdare]

Whilst I don't disagree with anything you've written, DDD, I'm depressed by the dogmatic insistence of the climate change camp that they must win the argument on climate change.

I think you're right. Even worse than 'climate change' is 'global warming' which doesn't only sound non-scary, it sounds positively cosy! I've lost count of the number of idiots in the last few days who've said either "bring on that global warming" or "this proves global warming is a lie".   Maybe if we started calling it Weather Death or Skies of Doom ...

And when the oil does run out, will we be mining all those wasteful landfill sites for recyclable plastics?

[COMMANDO FORCES]

Take me back to the days when the experts said the Millenium bug would crash the worlds computers, Mad cow disease would kill us all, Avian flu would wipe us all from the face of the earth, Swine flu would do the same and this winter would be mild.
What experts should I believe this time?

[Richmond Clements]

And when the oil does run out, will we be mining all those wasteful landfill sites for recyclable plastics?

Closer than you think.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article4510201.ece

I've seen film of some landfills in the States where they do this already.

[Peter Wolf]

Carbon gets released into the atmosphere and taken out again constantly and cyclically. I think the idea is it's not ideal from a human point of view for it all to be released into the atmosphere at the same time.

Obviously if the atmosphere was composed of 50 percent CO2 it wouldnt be good for anything that breathes oxygen but as it is CO2 is what we breathe out and to label what is a natural component of the atmosphere and is essential to plant life as toxic or a poison or a pollutant is idiotic in the extreme.

I'ver avoided addressing your ridiculous pronouncements about climate change up to now, but your basic misunderstanding of science really needs correcting.

Increased levels of CO2 in the atmosphere causes temepratures to rise through the 'greenhouse effect'. Whether or not you want to call this "pollution" is purely a matter of semantics.

In the natutal cycle, carbon is released and absorbed constantly by plants and animals and overall levels reamin roughly the same. In the last few centuries however we have unearthed billions of tons of carbon that was permananently locked into fossil fules below ground and realeased all that CO2 into the atmosphere, causing an overall rise, and therefore a rise in temperature.

It really is that simple, the science is very basic and not open to question, and I am amazed and infuriated that special interest groups have sowed so much doubt and misinformation that we, as a planet, are unlikely to ever get enough consensus to do anything about it.

Idiots who argue that climate moves in cycles anyway have no concept of the timescales. Climate does shift naturally over millenia, but what we're seeing now is noticeable change over just a few hundred years. Even if the natural trend is upwards, not addressing fossil-fuel "pollution" is like saying "this boat already has a slow leak, so it won't matter if I kick a big hole in the bottom".

What has your comment got to do with mine ?

My point being is CO2 a poison or a pollutant and the claim that i am exhaling poison ?


Anyway i could argue all the points in your comment because i understand the subject but i might suggest that you get up to date with the debate yourself before you arrogantly claim my understanding of science needs correcting or that "the science isnt open to question" because it is open to question and it is being questioned and the manufactured CO2 "consensus" is collapsing.

Further to the CO2 debate personally i think that despite that being in my opinion a lie there is still every reason to cut down on burning of fossil fuels that produce CO2 and all the other substances that it produces that actually are pollutants [that never ever get talked about] or at least to invest in research and development of alternatives that are clean.There is a need to cut down on pollution and Deforestation etc in general and only an idiot would say there isnt.

I am glad that COP 15 collapsed [with the help of Climategate  ] and achieved virtually nothing because the revenue that was going to be raised by CO2 taxes was going to end up being paid to the IMF/Bank Of The World with very little of it being allocated to enviromental causes or research and development of clean alternatives to fossil fuels.The funds were going to be used to fund a centralised World Govt infrastructure and dont tell me this is wrong because they openly stated this themselves.

So dont expect "world Leaders" to save the planet because it wont happen because they are incapable and the fundamental problem with the climate change debate is that it has been politicised and one side of the ONGOING scientific debate have been shut out or ignored by the Pro-AGW brigade whose fraudulent and spurious science is now being exposed for what it is.Al Gore and Rothschilds and their Carbon Credit schemes arent going to save the planet.

So there you are.I disagree with the spurious science but i do support the need to cut down on pollution and waste because its just plain common sense to do so.I dont need to shocked into submission by scaremongering and end of the world scenarios and lies or flawed computer models or trend forecasters to do so.

HEMP is a resource that could and should be used as an alternative to fossil fuels because anything that is presently derived from oil can be derived from Hemp as Hemp is a renewable resource.Hemp grows in very poor and dry soil conditions and its cultivation could provide third world countries and even american farmers with a cash crop that could provide them with a steady income that would gradually lift them all out of poverty instead of them all being exploited by the IMF who cripple them all with debt.Hemp cultivation for the above reasons wouldnt need to take land way from agriculture either.

Hemp - Hemp - Hemp - Hemp - Hemp - Hemp ..........

How many more times do i need to say this before it sinks in ?

I also go along with JCs previous comment as well.

[M.I.K.]

http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/carbon+dioxide+poisoning

[Jim_Campbell]

Take me back to the days when the experts said the Millenium bug would crash the worlds computers,

The Millennium Bug thing makes me cross. "Ooh! Look! Nothing happened! It can't have been true."

Yes, it fucking was true. There were substantial numbers of computer systems that were incapable of recognizing a 4-digit year: you could actually make it happen in any pre-95 version of Windows simply by setting the system clock back by an hour and watch all the files you'd created in the past hour literally disappear from the File Manager. They were still there, but the system refused to acknowledge that they existed because they had been created in the future.

Of course, the odd ancient PC running Windows 3.11 wasn't really the problem: it was the fuck-off great big data servers running COBOL that had been going for 20+ years in institutions like, say, banks that were the problem.

A fantastic effort was expended making sure that these systems were either replaced (or, I suspect in many more cases, bodged) in order to avoid 00-year issues. And here's the thing: it worked. The advice was correct, it was followed, and global data crisis was avoided.

Bah!

Jim

[Mikey]

Is the oil going to run out?...stop burning the fucking things?

Jim - I said something similar to a bloke and he replied 'But the oil won't run out; that's been made up too!' 

Aaaaand we're back on topic!

M.

[COMMANDO FORCES]

Where are the answers about the Swine Flu, Avian Flu & Mad Cow disease, Jim?
Plus with the millenium bug I seem to recall that many people took no notice what so ever and nothing happened to their computers, which you answered in your post Jim. That's what I mean't.
Look at it, just over 100 hundred people have died from Variant CJD, I can't remember the exact number who died from Avian flu (it might have been about 2) and Swine flu has not killed anyone as it's been the underlying condition that has done that.
If climate change was all our doing then why doesn't everyone help out and stop buying all these electrical goodies, that's right most people are hypocrites when it will affect their way of life.
If you believe in the Climate issue get rid of your car, get a job within walking ditance to your home, put your children in schools closer to home, buy local produce, don't go abroad on holidays.
Now if all the people who do believe in it do all that I can book a flight abroad and have no queues at the airport

[The Legendary Shark]

Some evidence does seem to point towards oil being a renewable resource that is being constantly created by inorganic chemical and geological processes deep within the Earth: 

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38645

If this is true, then the Peak Oil myth is simply another trick by Big Business to introduce a perceived scarcity in order to keep prices as high as possible. Capitalism. Don't you just love it?

[Mikey]

Where are the answers about the Swine Flu, Avian Flu & Mad Cow disease,

I think these are good examples of the news media going batshit and ramping up the excitement - that goes equally as well for climate science. A few soundbites here, a reporter walking through a flu virus there and that's yer lot.

IMHO, for a lot of people it's the fact that being interested in environmental matters is traditionally seen as a left wing or liberal concern, successfully portrayed as 'the loony left', which people don't want to be associated with.

Being a big pinko lefty liberal, I just believe any old shite that makes me feel good

Will no one think of the polar bears?!  

M

(edit to add - first oil, or more specifically kerogen, formation is after about 9000 years and that's droplets. I wouldn't call it renewable!)

[Dandontdare]

because it is open to question and it is being questioned and the manufactured CO2 "consensus" is collapsing.

Further to the CO2 debate personally i think that despite that being in my opinion a lie

Which bit exactly is a lie? That if you increase the CO2 content of the atmosphere, then temperature increases? That's basic physics, it can be demonstrated with a glass box and a sun lamp.  Or is it that human industry has increased C02 levels?

The fact that is being questioned does not mean that it is open to question. All kinds of nonsense theories are out there, from creationists, to flat-earthers, to moon-landing deniers, but just cos it's on the internet doesn't give it credibility. In the words of Montgomery Scott: You cannae change the laws of physics, cap'n!

Where are the answers about the Swine Flu, Avian Flu & Mad Cow disease, Jim?

The point about swine and bird flu were that they are new strains that are highly contagious and spread quickly, and to which almost nobody has dvelopped resistance. If they then combined with one of the really serious strains that tend to kill people, making a lethal AND infectious mutation, we'd be screwed. The science isn't precise, we have no way of knowing exactly what will happen, so we have to go with worst case scenarios and best guesses. And drastic expensive action WAS taken with CjD. Even now they think they've underestimated the 'mad cow timebomb' ticking away in people's brains, but the fact is that if we hadn't radically changed the way we farmed beef, at huge expense, the effects would have been far worse.

If climate change was all our doing then why doesn't everyone help out and stop buying all these electrical goodies, that's right most people are hypocrites when it will affect their way of life.
If you believe in the Climate issue get rid of your car, get a job within walking ditance to your home, put your children in schools closer to home, buy local produce, don't go abroad on holidays.

errm... yes that's kind of the point. Unless we all start doing some of those things, the problem will only get worse.

It seems the authorities are damned if they do and damned if they don't. If thousands had died from flu, people would be screaming about govenment inaction. If, as with the  millenium bug, they spend a fortune and the fix actually works, they're accused of scare-mongering!

[Jim_Campbell]

Where are the answers about the Swine Flu, Avian Flu & Mad Cow disease, Jim?

Did I mention any of them? No, because I don't know anything about 'em!

OTOH, I was involved with the Millennium compliance efforts of a major regional publisher, and I know that was a very real issue.

I'm afraid you'd have to ask someone else about the other stuff!

Cheers

Jim