The Political Thread

[Old Tankie]

No, you haven't insulted me, I just think you're funny!  But, heh, you could try insulting me again.  Better luck next time.  Best wishes.  Mike

[the 'artist' formerly known as Slips]

Roger, tr;dr?  If that's an insult, it's wasted on me, mate, 'cos I haven't got a clue what it means.  Could you please insult me in plain English!

I'll have a go, if you like.

Contrary to popular belief, Scottish people don't tend to have a problem with the English, despite notable exceptions such as Jimmy Hill. We do, however, dislike obnoxious people.

Best wishes

- Trout

Some of us are even married to you, some of us even live in your country........

Interestingly, the perception amongst the English is that we dont like them.  For that I actually agree with Mr MacNeil, there is a perception down here that the Scots Hate the English and that is fuelled by media rhetoric.  Not by the actual English, though there is a feeling that they pay for the rest of the UK or at least pay for anywhere not in the South East, which is were the lovely media bubble resides. 

My wife felt when we lived in Scotland for a year, that the constant, "you English" nonsense and the constant "so what School did you actually go to" really just put her off from ever living in Scotland.  Though this may be due to west coast influences rather than Scots ones.  I think this contradicts what Ive said.  But thats her experience not mine. 

Being a Scot who really never wants to go back and live in Scotland, and an outsider in my own country and in England.  My take on indepence is this,
Since the Blair/Brown fudged independence and went with the Scottish Parliament, Independence is actually pretty much unavoidable.  I feel it was used to make sure that the Scots stayed within the Union, keeping the MP's in the Uk Parliament keeping labour "in power" and making sure the vested interests stayed.  I think thats probably back fired and allowed the question "As we are making all theses decisions, we can make them all".   I also feel that the powers that be are pretty much scared of that whole scenario. 

I think there has actually been a loss of Englishness amongst the English, they are actually mostly confused as what to be English actually is.  Is it the stiff upper lip thing?  Does it mean the Empire?  Does it mean the thuggish football supporters and the right wing of the EDL or BNP?  Does it mean Morris Dancers or something else?  Personally I think they get Britishness confused with Englishness and the two are synonomous with each other.  The English need their own parliament even if the Union were to stay that would mean having a much smaller UK establishment which would control things like Defence or Enviroment or similar universal functions.  This of course wont happen and thus the break up of the union is pretty much a foregone conclusion, if not now within 30 years. 

As a final point on this, Im Scottish but I dont want a vote on this (ive lived in England for close to 20 years), the people who currently live in Scotland should vote and those over 18 only (anything else would be seen as a fudge)

Just my own thoughts! 

[Old Tankie]

Nice post, Slips, agreed with most of it but not the English losing their identity bit.  I think English identity is growing.  I'm old enough, (just) to remember the '66 World Cup Final, the (English) crowd were waving Union flags; go to an England game now and they're nearly all waving St. George's flags.

As a child, I can't remember any celebrations marking St. George's Day, but on the 23rd April just gone, I saw English flags flying and even went to a St. George's Day parade.  Unheard of in my youth.  I accept, on the whole, that we're not a nation "to beat our chests".  But I think the English are very at home with their identity, I think that's one of the reasons we're so welcoming to outsiders.

Yes, I know we have our morons but so does everybody else.  I'm talking about the English as a whole, not the fringe nutters.

[the 'artist' formerly known as Slips]

Nice post, Slips, agreed with most of it but not the English losing their identity bit.  I think English identity is growing.  I'm old enough, (just) to remember the '66 World Cup Final, the (English) crowd were waving Union flags; go to an England game now and they're nearly all waving St. George's flags.

As a child, I can't remember any celebrations marking St. George's Day, but on the 23rd April just gone, I saw English flags flying and even went to a St. George's Day parade.  Unheard of in my youth.  I accept, on the whole, that we're not a nation "to beat our chests".  But I think the English are very at home with their identity, I think that's one of the reasons we're so welcoming to outsiders.

Yes, I know we have our morons but so does everybody else.  I'm talking about the English as a whole, not the fringe nutters.

We are kind of on the same page but the point I make is what is Englishness or being English?  Its not a critism, its just my observation.  Other than football and rugby matches how exactly does it manifest itself.  Scotland has tartans and clans, Wales has singing and that industrial belt (miners and the like), Northern Ireland has its two fractions (which are at almost opposite ends of the scale).  But what does England have thats unique from Britishness?  As far as I can see it doesnt and there seems to be a confusion over what being English actually is, its a problem that neither the Scots the Welsh or the Irish dont seem to have.   

Id add in that actually, I do see more St Georges flags and things like that its probably increased over the last 5 years.  Maybe the English are beginning to define themselves as seperate to British.

[Trout]

No, you haven't insulted me, I just think you're funny!  But, heh, you could try insulting me again.  Better luck next time.  Best wishes.  Mike

Let us know when you work out what Roger called you.

Slips: I think one of the side-effects in Scotland of the move towards independence is people are thinking a little more clearly about our relationship with other countries. Maybe I have a sheltered life, but I honestly can't remember the last time I heard anyone make a derogatory comment towards someone because they were English.

I'm pretty open-minded on the whole issue. I'm following the debate with interest.

- Trout

[Spikes]

What constitutes "Englishness" has always been a bit vague, and maybe always will be. Perhaps being the larger, more influential and populous nation we never had to worry about such things. And being among the first to move from being predominantly a rural, to a urban country, maybe a lot was lost in the process.
Perhaps, and a dont mean this as a slight, but regarding Scots, Welsh and Irish indentity being stronger and more definable, has this come about, to some degree, by being on the edge, and feeling insecure?
The upshot of this, is today these nation's are more secure/definable regarding who they are, while its the English who are now feeling insecure?
Though i totally agree we are not a nation to beat our chests. Personally, i find it a bit false and embarrassing when we do!
Anyways - my view is personally i wouldnt want to see the union break up, though of course Scottish independence its a matter for the Scots, though saying that - it does have implications for the rest of the UK, and the concern is, with Scotland gone, what does it mean for the rest of us? Perhaps the union can be "modernised"? Im certainly not against bringing things up to date for all the home nations. Perhaps all the home nations can be indepenent, but still within a loose union for some matters?

[Trout]

Perhaps all the home nations can be indepenent, but still within a loose union for some matters?

I think that's kind of the plan, if Scotland gets EU and Nato membership. There have been all sorts of sneers, and even threats to veto any Scottish application, but the idea is that we'd be good neighbours as best we can.

[the 'artist' formerly known as Slips]

No, you haven't insulted me, I just think you're funny!  But, heh, you could try insulting me again.  Better luck next time.  Best wishes.  Mike

Let us know when you work out what Roger called you.

Slips: I think one of the side-effects in Scotland of the move towards independence is people are thinking a little more clearly about our relationship with other countries. Maybe I have a sheltered life, but I honestly can't remember the last time I heard anyone make a derogatory comment towards someone because they were English.

I'm pretty open-minded on the whole issue. I'm following the debate with interest.

- Trout

My own feelings on that are similar. 
But the experience was my wifes.  She was a fairly senior person at a large national company and she was still asked about schooling, religion and football (it was Glasgow and was nigh on 15 years ago).  I think the comment that stuck in her mind was the "English coming here taking our jobs".  She asked me if we were the same country.  Ive no doubt that Scotland has moved on, within my own family the following of the Labour party has been dropped and they have nearly all moved to SNP (not my vote but it seems to be generally the case), so theres hope of sorts. 

I personally would prefer a looser union, much like the EU with a decentralisation of powers into the member countries (much like Devolution) at the same power levels eg tax raising powers, etc.  But maybe have control of things like Defence, Enviroment, Agriculture, Energy Centralised.... that is almost a federal state I think?

[Spikes]

I think that's kind of the plan, if Scotland gets EU and Nato membership. There have been all sorts of sneers, and even threats to veto any Scottish application, but the idea is that we'd be good neighbours as best we can.

Surely a indepenent Scotland would have automatic EU and NATO membership? The question of needing to re-apply doesnt make sense - or am i missing summat?

[Old Tankie]

Hi Slips, why dismiss football and rugby as a national identity but not clans and kilts or choirs.  Each to their own surely.  One is not more important than the other.  There are many other examples of English identity from our countryside to our engineers, architects and poets, cathedrals and curry houses, to name but a few, the list is endless and I won't bore you with them all!  I'm off for a Real Ale!!  English, of course!

[Trout]

she was still asked about schooling, religion and football (it was Glasgow and was nigh on 15 years ago).  I think the comment that stuck in her mind was the "English coming here taking our jobs".

I suspect that Glasgow has been the overriding influence there, but I think there's some serious stupidity in what was said. I can't imagine any situation I am in - at work on otherwise - where this sort of talk would be tolerated now. If someone did make a comment like that, I would expect 10 people to tell them to stop being such a bigot.

Surely a indepenent Scotland would have automatic EU and NATO membership? The question of needing to re-apply doesnt make sense - or am i missing summat?

That's the assumption that was made, but elements in the UK parties keep saying that neither membership would be automatic. Just a wee bit politically motivated there, I think.

There's a new scare story every few days: "An independent Scotland would never survive because..." It's actually kind of funny because such stories - which amount to patting us on the head and shaking a finger at us - just drive more people to join the SNP. I'd much rather there was an intelligent debate about it.

Damn! How did I get drawn into a discussion on my most hated thread? 

[the 'artist' formerly known as Slips]

Because they are international sports, the English "may" have invented them.  But for example in football it was the scots in the industrial heartlands of the north who updated the game into its modern incarnation at the turn of the 20th century.  Im not saying they arent important at all, I was getting at outside sports were is the English identity, what makes being English unique.  What makes it different from Empire and Britishness? 

As for your other stuff a lot of these are interlinked with Empire and thus Britishness.  Some of the most important Engineers were Scots, they just worked in England (thats what I do).  Curry houses are another example of Empire and of Britishness.   Are there no Curry Houses in Scotland or Wales or Ireland? 

Im only asking the questions, questions I fire at my English friends on occassion?   There may be a reassesment of Englishness going on that will be refined into something unique.  As someone else has said this could be that the other nations felt inferior to the English or felt they were the older brother who always put them down.  So developed something to make them different, Im not sure.  I just have never worked out what being english is, well nothing that sets it apart from Scotland for example.


 

[JayzusB.Christ]

For a long time, I've been under the impression that Old Tankie was that mohawked punk DJ lady.  Who was that then?

[Old Tankie]

No, JB, that's not me!

Slips - I never brought up football and rugby, you did.  Kilts are not unique to the Scots, choirs are not unique to the Welsh.  I'm beginning to struggle with your point.  Surely you can have identities that you share with other people but they're a pointer to your own identity. But maybe you're right and I'm Scottish!!  Aren't there English bagpipes?

[Trout]

For a long time, I've been under the impression that Old Tankie was that mohawked punk DJ lady.  Who was that then?

That was Lara, who had a username themed on Tank Girl. She's still doing her thing but can be found on Twitter instead of here.