The Political Thread

[Richmond Clements]

I often wonder how Tony Blair, for instance,  can live with himself with the knowledge that so many innocent Iraqis have died in his name because of an assumption that was at best very shaky and at worst a lie.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy

[Mabs]

No offence taken, Jayzuz. And I agree wholeheartedly with your points, as well as my fellow boarder's views. It's a sad state of affairs and it makes me really sad to see the division which is being perpetrated by a lot of the media, not to mention the extremists. 

[Bat King]

Not all atrocities are committed in the name of religion. However attacks on a satirical magazine that was firebombed shortly after publishing a satirical cartoon seen as blasphemous are.

The point of the cartoons are not to attack a minority community but to stand against the ludicrous idea of 'blasphemy' and those who would lethally enforce this dictate.

The witnesses state the usual God is Great yelling. Your paranoia about media will inform how much you trust that to be the truth.

I'm not trying to say these people represent all of Islam but let's stop trying to pretend these murders aren't religiously motivated. This wasn't the US embassy, it wasn't a personal thing, it was 12 people killed because of a cartoon - following through on the threats that have been made frequently since the cartoons were published.

I don't think anyone is really denying that this was, from the evidence, religious extremists.

I certainly aren't. I just don't think a blind eye should be turned to other forms of mass murder. Many thousands have been killed for nothing more than money. For example thousands have died for refusing orders from drug lords. Thousands have died for oil. Thousands have died for diamond mining. I am not talking a few accidents, I am talking deaths in slavery & out-and-out murder.

I think what happened yesterday is utterly abhorrent. It has no place in a civilised society. Islam is a civilised religion. Remember that during the Renaissance much regained knowledge came from Islam, they had preserved what the West had lost.

[TordelBack]

Remember that during the Renaissance much regained knowledge came from Islam, they had preserved what the West had lost.

Also remember that one of the root causes of the Renaissance was the fall of Constantinople to Sultan Mehmed II, 'Allah's shadow on Earth'!  History is never simple.

Agree with the Shark that there's little distinction to be drawn between yesterday's murders and routine drone strikes, beyond the target being freedom of expression itself.

[Bat King]

Remember that during the Renaissance much regained knowledge came from Islam, they had preserved what the West had lost.

Also remember that one of the root causes of the Renaissance was the fall of Constantinople to Sultan Mehmed II, 'Allah's shadow on Earth'!  History is never simple.

Agree with the Shark that there's little distinction to be drawn between yesterday's murders and routine drone strikes, beyond the target being freedom of expression itself.

Yes that is also true... but my point was that Islam retained much of the knowledge that helped reform modern western civilisation. Metal gears being one example that had we not regained we might not have harnessed steam power or the infernal internal combustion engine.

As you astutely point out picking one isolated part of history isn't ever clean - but my point remains, Islam is and always has been a civilised religion.

[The Legendary Shark]

I'm not sure I buy this whole "the target is freedom of expression" line the media's pushing. It seems too pat an explanation, too simple, designed to demonise rather than to inform.
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But it *was* an attack on freedom of expression, I hear you moan moodily - and so it was, on a certain level. On another level it was a revenge attack. On another an act of war. On another a blow for freedom. This despicable act does not stand alone or exist in a vacuum or have an abstract target. It has its roots firmly sunk into Western foreign policy and, as we reap what we sow, it bears the fruit of grenades.
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"This is an attack on freedom of expression" is a sound-byte, putting a label on something to simulate understanding and create what a good friend of mine used to call a "thought-stopper." Thought-stoppers are little phrases designed to make you think that a subject has been understood and categorised by experts so that you don't have to think about them. Examples include terrorist, conspiracy theory, law enforcement and national security. As soon as you encounter these words and phrases you know exactly what you're supposed to think and feel so you don't look much deeper. Why bother, right? Far cleverer people than you have been working on this (whatever it is) and you've got more pressing matters to deal with so why not take advantage of the thought-stopper?
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Beware labels is all I'm saying - they often say more about the label maker than the contents of the jar.

[The Legendary Shark]

To change tack for a moment, I've downloaded the pdf of the report and I'll have to transfer it to my laptop before I can read it properly but there's a summary here: www.cepr.net/index.php/blogs/relief-and-reconstruction-watch/breaking-open-the-black-box-increasing-aid-transparency-and-accountability-in-haiti
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It's a damning report exposing the inefficiencies of the US Haiti aid program. For instance, over half the government aid contracts have been awarded to companies based around Washington who are represented by the same lobbying group and only 0.7% of aid contracts have been awarded to Haitian firms.
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How long ago was the Haitian earthquake and the subsequent (and ongoing) outbreak of cholera supposedly inadvertently introduced to the island by UN relief troops? 2010, was it? And still the most important thing is to get your snout in the trough.
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It's no wonder people shoot at us.

[TordelBack]

Take your point about soundbites Sharky, but despite the undoubted complexity of the context, I think the hat fits in this case.

[JayzusB.Christ]

I often wonder how Tony Blair, for instance,  can live with himself with the knowledge that so many innocent Iraqis have died in his name because of an assumption that was at best very shaky and at worst a lie.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy

That's something I've been thinking a lot about lately (not just about Blair; but about political leaders in general) - it's very disturbing, but in many cases, it's the only logical conclusion.

[Hawkmumbler]

I have very negative experiences with a number of representatives for the big three religious sect's, specifically Catholicism, Islam and Judaism. I lap up satire at the expense of some daft 2000 year old slash fiction and how seriously people take it when their are real world issues that can't be solved by sitting on your nards and praying something will happen.

[Definitely Not Mister Pops]

I have very negative experiences with a number of representatives for...

You do realize that the beginning of that sentence sounds like a bigot trying to justify their prejudices?

[The Legendary Shark]

Really? It didn't sound like that to me. To me it sounded like a reference to past personal experience which is, admittedly, hard to assess without a little more context. The idea of bigotry never entered my mind when I read it, although the shadow of the idea of victim did.
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Strange, and wonderful, how we all see the same things differently.
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I was also captivated by the image of someone sitting on his nards, which is a good but eye-watering trick if you can do it, and praying for the pain to stop.

[Hawkmumbler]

My apologize. I had had quite a bit to drink last night and, yes, I said something that I don't believe is a fair representation of how I truly feel. I HAVE had dire experiences with religious folk, and I would never convert myself, but I do not hold any animosity towards the individual bodies in general and I won't hold a persons faith against them, as much as I might disagree with them.

I can only apologies for being, in the words of Jim, a cunt.

[Theblazeuk]

I have very negative experiences with a number of representatives for...

You do realize that the beginning of that sentence sounds like a bigot trying to justify their prejudices?

I don't see why expressions of negative personal experiences are seen as bigotry when it comes to religion. I hate that protectionism that forces any discussion to be entirely removed to the abstract. It's not like Hawks said "They're all like that" or even "In my experience, all..." ; he said "I have had bad experiences of a number of representatives of faith".

You weren't a cunt at all Hawks.

[The Legendary Shark]

S'right.