The Political Thread

[Karl Stephan]

The protests were actually mostly peaceful but reported as anything but, with incidents like the graffiti blown out of all proportion. Strange how the violence only starts when the police weigh in.

UK police are pussycats. You really don't know how good you have it.

[The Legendary Shark]

If change can only be achieved through democracy, why did we bomb Afghanistan and Iraq without a public vote? Why privatise the NHS without public consent? Why sell publically owned services without a referendum? Etc., etc., etc...

[ZenArcade]

WF, all really valid points, that is why there needs to be mass, organised petition and protest against the truely dreadful agenda this administration fully intends to push through. We have a mass communication network (internet) with which to organise and coordinate these actions. But they must be peaceful and respectful. Z

[Karl Stephan]

If change can only be achieved through democracy, why did we bomb Afghanistan and Iraq without a public vote? Why privatise the NHS without public consent? Why sell publically owned services without a referendum? Etc., etc., etc...

With whose money and with what infrastructure? You can't micromanage a government with endless referendums. The time, cost and human capital needed to to this would be prohibitive to running a country.

[Karl Stephan]

WF, all really valid points, that is why there needs to be mass, organised petition and protest against the truely dreadful agenda this administration fully intends to push through. We have a mass communication network (internet) with which to organise and coordinate these actions. But they must be peaceful and respectful. Z

Like the Occupy Movement? Fat load of good that did.

[The Legendary Shark]

All good points. There's no need to micromanage every decision but big ones (do we go to war, for example) can easily be put to the country with the internet/media. There could be "telethon" style events - in-depth presentations from all sides on BBC1, superficial presentations on Channel 4 and presentations for the hard of thinking on ITV - at the end of which, everyone votes using their personal voter number via internet, text, phone-in or the Red Button. If we can organise Children in Need and Red Nose Day we can certainly organise this.
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The day to day minutiae of running public services and institutions could be left largely to bodies like the civil service and local councils, much as happens today but with greater transparency and accountability.
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As to funding, I'm not going to go through the private versus public money creation argument again but funding will not be a problem.

[Karl Stephan]

All good points. There's no need to micromanage every decision but big ones (do we go to war, for example) can easily be put to the country with the internet/media.

Going to war is a strategic decision best left to an authority that has the benefit of full military intelligence, knowledge of international support treatise and our available resources, not joe public. Also, define 'going to war'. Regulations and legislation and the associated room for challenge by anti-war bodies would open up a huge can of worms.

Also, leaving the decision on war to the public will not always result in an anti-war stance.

Anyway, that's just war, but it would apply to any higher level decision requiring specialist insight.

There could be "telethon" style events - in-depth presentations from all sides on BBC1, superficial presentations on Channel 4 and presentations for the hard of thinking on ITV - at the end of which, everyone votes using their personal voter number via internet, text, phone-in or the Red Button. If we can organise Children in Need and Red Nose Day we can certainly organise this.

For smaller decisions. Like what? You would also have to run a campaign like these organisations every time. There's also a massive risk of fraud and what's to stop activist hackers from crashing servers when they realise that the numbers aren't on their side?

The day to day minutiae of running public services and institutions could be left largely to bodies like the civil service and local councils, much as happens today but with greater transparency and accountability.

More manpower = increase in government size = more taxation, and all because certain politicians can't be trusted.

[The Legendary Shark]

So, in short, you like being told what to do by a small group of people who think they have more intelligence and rights than you. That's your choice, of course, but I don't.

[Professor Bear]

I don't know that government can be trusted to decide to go to war if they have to lie to the public to justify it and have a clear conflict of interest in that they personally stand to make money from doing so.

Like the Occupy Movement? Fat load of good that did.

Occupy is a movement, not a campaign, and activism isn't about waving a magic wand and then things change forever - it's about the long slog and perseverance, which is why most people in a I WANT IT NOW NOW NOW culture don't like it.
Occupy made those disgruntled with multiple issues seen and heard, showed that they weren't alone and that mass protest and inconveniencing the financial and political elite was more possible than ever.  Occupy had no single goal, no axe to grind, no aim that once achieved would cause those involved to dissipate and go away, but in the short term it was a successful recruitment tool for hacktivists, while in the long term it showed that activism wasn't the preserve of college kids with iPhones anymore, and that social media can be used to quickly organise mass protests.
Occupy was, in short, the prologue to something else.

[The Legendary Shark]

Well said, Bear.

[Karl Stephan]

So, in short, you like being told what to do by a small group of people who think they have more intelligence and rights than you.

Armchair anarchists?

[Karl Stephan]

I don't know that government can be trusted to decide to go to war if they have to lie to the public to justify it and have a clear conflict of interest in that they personally stand to make money from doing so.

Yeah, the Labour government was wrong in going to war. We get that. We voted them out, didn't we?

Occupy made those disgruntled with multiple issues seen and heard, showed that they weren't alone and that mass protest and inconveniencing the financial and political elite was more possible than ever. 

It didn't inconvenience anyone save for the council who had to clear up all the human excrement and used hypodermic needles left by these people.

Occupy had no single goal, no axe to grind, no aim that once achieved would cause those involved to dissipate and go away, but in the short term it was a successful recruitment tool for hacktivists, while in the long term it showed that activism wasn't the preserve of college kids with iPhones anymore, and that social media can be used to quickly organise mass protests.
Occupy was, in short, the prologue to something else.

A sharp swing to the right?

[The Legendary Shark]

"Armchair anarchists"? If you like.
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All protesters are drug addicts? If you like.
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The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan were Labour's fault? If you like.
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[Professor Bear]

"'Occupy' is nothing but a pack of louts, thieves, and rapists, an unruly mob, fed by Woodstock-era nostalgia and putrid false righteousness,"

Strange but true: my brother works for the local council, and he says the dirtiest bastards he has to clean up after are born-again christian crowds and Orange Lodge marches - basically the most right-wing types the country has to offer, though he doesn't grumble much about them as he's incredibly grateful for the overtime in these uncertain times.

[Dark Jimbo]

So, in short, you like being told what to do by a small group of people who think they have more intelligence and rights than you. That's your choice, of course, but I don't.

He's saying, as I think you know, that he likes having country-wide and international decisions on war, the economy, et al, delegated on his and the country's behalf to an democratically elected representative body of officials and experts. So do I.

That isn't to say I think the system's perfect, (it isn't) or couldn't be improved; but I don't have any alternatives to offer that would work better. If I did, and I believed in them that strongly, I would have gone into politics and worked to make it a reality rather than carp about it on the internet forum of a sci-fi comic.*

*Not a personal snipe at you, Sharky, although i know it sounds like one!