The Political Thread

[The Legendary Shark]

Ah, JPM, you do make me sad. You have nothing to offer but vitriol with glitter in it. You think the world is perfect as it is and there's no need to change any of it, no point even trying, no point even thinking about it. You have zero faith in or trust of humanity and think the natural state of mankind is enslavement to others, living on our knees - and you're so consumed by your own anger that you can't even conceive of a world beyond one where everyone buttfucks everyone else for whatever they can get. You offer no solutions beyond "more of the same please, Master." I pity you, really. No, that's not entirely true. I pity the world that has people like you in it. People who refuse to turn their not inconsiderable intellects towards improving the world and instead choose to pour eloquent shit all over it and any ideas for improvement.
.
I also can't argue with you, Steve. Didn't we have a discussion on Facebook where you flat out refused to accept that money is created out of nothing despite the fact that I linked to a Bank of England document explaining that this is exactly what happens? Instead of admitting that you were wrong and thinking about the implications of this new information you simply ended the conversation. (Unless that wasn't you I was conversing with on Facebook, my memory's not 100% on that, in which case I apologise unreservedly.) Your vitriol is less powerful than JPMs and has no glitter in it but still you're cut from the same cloth.
.
You both continually and wilfully ignore my point that it's not the systems, organisations and institutions put into place (yes, sometimes by "government" - gasp!) that are the problem - indeed, many of them are extremely useful to society as a whole - but that the "government" assumes the right to bully and threaten anyone it chooses and to declare that its word is Law, even if you don't agree with it either intellectually or morally. You assume that people only act in a decent way or do good and useful things because they are forced to do so by morally ambiguous politicians. You mistake rulers for representatives and are seemingly glad to do so. Our country is ruled by bullies who chuck the occasional crumb at you and, like hungry dogs, you sit drooling, gazing up fixedly at the table waiting for the next crumb to be tossed your way. The concept of sawing the legs off the table doesn't even occur.
.
So, you two wait for your political saviour to come along - someone who's going to improve the world for you so that you don't have to do anything yourselves. Someone who'll toss you more or bigger crumbs. One day he'll come, just like Jesus, to save you - just keep on voting every four or five years like fruit machine addicts waiting for the jackpot to come up and ignore all the bastardry and human wreckage strewn in the wake of "government." You can ignore all that because its not your fault, is it? You just vote, do your civic duty, it isn't your fault that the rich are getting richer at your expense, that sanctioned benefits claimants are committing suicide or that British weapons are blasting innocents in Foreignistan into little pieces. Not your fault at all.
.
No, the world's good enough as it is and there's no need to change course. 

[TordelBack]

The Shark's ability to duel largely politely with a dozen opponents at once while maintaining a hearty demeanour has to offset some kettle logic deficencies. It's very easy to trot out fallacies while outgunned and under pressure, less easy to stay amiable while doing it.

The fact that the root of all his cogitatin' appears to be a belief that individuals are basically good, and can co-operate at various scales to mutual advantage while retaining agency and personal responsibility,  whereas distant groups that take on roles of policy and enforcement can be cruelly self-interested and self-sustaining at the expense of those they claim to act for, is hardly a bad starting point either.

Somewhere along the way however we part company, probably at the point where it's asserted that because governments do bad things, all government is bad.

[NapalmKev]

I think the problem most people are having is your (Shark) steadfast refusal to acknowledge another's point of view. And yes, I understand you could turn that around and say the same about others.

You seem to believe that without 'Government' the majority of people will help one another in a completely altruistic manner. This simply is not the case. There will always be those that want to force their opinions/way of life onto others.

A person grows some food and wishes to trade. You have a service you can offer in exchange for some food. You offer your service and are told "no, that's not enough. I want more!" What do you do then? Starve, that's what!

Cheers

[Dandontdare]

You think the world is perfect  ....You have zero faith in or trust of humanity ..... and you're so consumed by your own anger...

Aha ... the old "I can't argue with what you actually say, so I'll tell you what you're saying and argue against that instead."

[Jimmy Baker's Assistant]

The Shark's ability to duel largely politely with a dozen opponents at once while maintaining a hearty demeanour has to offset some kettle logic deficencies. It's very easy to trot out fallacies while undermanned and under pressure, less easy to stay amiable while doing it.

This is true. He's also a pretty good comics writer, whilst we're discussing Shark's virtues.

However, his views are so far away from anything that might be adopted collectively in the UK that the only power they have is to hurt him when he tries to put them unilaterally into to practice. Which they have done, as historians of this thread will be only too aware. I think a considerable portion of the disagreement he attracts his down to genuine concern for his wellbeing, rather than any particular mass-appetite to trot the same arguments out again and again.

Shark, I shall ends with an appeal. If we can't change your mind, then please just allow self-interest to override your convictions a little bit more. At least that way you can be wrong in comfort!

[TordelBack]

Can't argue with that.

[The Legendary Shark]

I wouldn't say that all governments are bad. As I assert, "government" doesn't actually exist - it's an artificial construct and therefore can be neither good nor bad. As always, it's the bad people who do bad things in the name of "government" who do the most harm. Even good intentions can turn bad when backed up by violence.
.
It's the same with our social systems. Hospitals are obviously good things but, when someone in the name of "government" cuts a hospital's budget, bad things can happen in them - such as a lack of staff or equipment leading to people dying on trolleys in corridors.
.
We stopped believing that emperors were aspects of God on Earth, then we stopped believing in the Divine Right of Kings. As our societies evolve, we must at some point stop believing in the Implied Right of Governments as well.
.
We can still have the 650 people down in Westminster if we want them, just remove from them the right to initiate violence and turn them truly into what they presently claim to be - representatives who organise our public services.
.
In my view, "government" often gets confused with organisation and cooperation when they are not the same things at all.
.
And I'm sorry for the name-calling. I feel bad about that now and wish I'd been more level-headed.

[The Legendary Shark]

Kev, I think there is truth in what you say. As I've said before, society is not going to change overnight. It must evolve at its own pace. The ideas I put out aren't meant to be implemented tomorrow or on some specific date but to be considered and worked towards.
.
I also believe that most people are at least a little altruistic. The problem at the moment is that Draconian legislation and a horrendous monetary system are forcing all of us to act, in at least some ways, against our own consciences. We are forced into doing things we don't want to do and prevented from doing things we do want to do. How many of us would like to tip up a few bob to help this person or support that group but just can't afford it?
.
And yes, there will always be miscreants. There always have been and always will be, but their numbers are few and, whilst they are undoubtedly a pain in the arse, they have been, are and will be dealt with in some way.
.
DDD - if you can't beat 'em...
.
Tordels and JBA - thanks for the kind words - I was beginning to forget what they looked like :-)
.
Whilst my views and opinions are undoubtedly coloured by my personal experiences, I try not to moan about how "they have done this to me, the rotters!" I'm big enough to know that it takes two to tango. I want as little to do with the "government" as possible. I'm not dancing with them any more. I do not recognise its authority over me and will not support it. Nor will I initiate violence against it or strive to topple it. I see it simply as a nuisance. True, it's difficult to live or do much without "government" approval but it's by no means impossible. If that means I have to live in a tent for the rest of my life then so be it. I won't be the first person on Earth to do that, or the last.
.

[Mikey]

I think The Shark knows me enough to know it's all just a conversation, but my last comment comes over as more abrupt than I really intended, but ye know in vino veritas an that.

But I will add that you also take the tone of the recently converted religious zealot (see 'i pity the fool' above) which doesn't help your point, to me at least. In your own words, them planes sent you down the rabbit hole, and to lapse into analogy, some people maybe dug out the rabbit and skinned it rather than finding Wonderland.

I'll finish with a quote for you Sharky. You could use it to summarise your thoughts sometimes?

'Boring fucking politics will get us all shot. Left wing, right wing, you can stuff the lot. Keep your petty prejudice I don't see the point. Anarchy and freedom is what I want.'

[Steven Denton]

.
I also can't argue with you, Steve. Didn't we have a discussion on Facebook where you flat out refused to accept that money is created out of nothing despite the fact that I linked to a Bank of England document explaining that this is exactly what happens? Instead of admitting that you were wrong and thinking about the implications of this new information you simply ended the conversation. (Unless that wasn't you I was conversing with on Facebook, my memory's not 100% on that, in which case I apologise unreservedly.) Your vitriol is less powerful than JPMs and has no glitter in it but still you're cut from the same cloth.
.

Was that the made up quote? I suspect I may just have disagreed with your interpretation or you misunderstood it (like you did with Ayn Rand for example)  but chose to move on with my life rather than argue with you.

I have attempted to draw your attention to the way you argue. you have pointed out I (probably more than once) gave up arguing with you.

[The Legendary Shark]

No problem, Mikey, it is all, like you say, just conversation. And yeah, I can be evangelical at times. Thanks for the quote, where's it from?
.
What "made up quote" are you referring to, Steve? I shared this link with you: www.bankofengland.co.uk/publications/Pages/news/2014/051.aspx explaining how money is created out of nothing after you said that you didn't think this was the case.

[The Legendary Shark]

No problem, Mikey, it is all, like you say, just conversation. And yeah, I can be evangelical at times. Thanks for the quote, where's it from?
.
What "made up quote" are you referring to, Steve? I shared this link with you: www.bankofengland.co.uk/publications/Pages/news/2014/051.aspx explaining how money is created out of nothing after you said that you didn't think this was the case.

[Mikey]

It's Crass Sharky.

https://youtu.be/FCDUhR8vK70

Have another!

https://youtu.be/MP-UtaWQcLA

[Steven Denton]

Ah yes.

I refer you to my former point about your misunderstanding things.

[The Legendary Shark]

Thanks, Mikey.
.
Thanks, Steve. I refer you to my former point of how you deal with being wrong.