The Political Thread

[TordelBack]

Sometimes you have to fight back, as we don't live in a perfect world. .

As seen on an ISIS recruiting poster, no doubt.

The thing about the risks in a snatch operation is that the US has made it quite clear that the lives of its military personnel can be spent on whatever it deems important: 13,000 of them since 9/11, for example.

[Old Tankie]

No one forced them to sign up.

[COMMANDO FORCES]

I'm sure you'd be okay with a relative being beheaded for working as a contractor, aid worker or anything similar. How about those Christians crucified the other day, or gay people being killed, for being gay.
What is the line that has to be crossed before you think something is wrong and think something should be done. I mean in the real world, rather than posting in cyberspace!

I'll say that most of those military deaths are from snipers, IED's and contact situations, all part of a soldiers life in a war zone. Doing a 'snatch op' as you mention is completely different and the life of the person you are going for will never come above your own.

[Old Tankie]

I agree with that.

[Jimmy Baker's Assistant]

Jean Charles de Menezes says hello.

Or actually doesn't as he was executed by the state in error and then publically smeared by the cops and press to cover their arses.

Surely better to try and capture, interrogate and prevent future atrocities rather than "Hey Ive got a bigger dick than you". I know that's not always possible but suspect in Bin Ladens case it was but the murican public was in full blood lust.

Now, this is the nub of the matter.

Whilst I agree with you (and Jezza) about OBL I don't entirely agree with what you say about Jean Charles de Menezes. I believe he was tragically mistaken for an actual suicide bomber and killed to prevent a detonation that would very likely have taken out the arresting officers and dozens of bystanders.

The guy that de Menezes was confused with had just attempted to bomb Shepherd's Bush tube station (only a couple of weeks after 7/7), so it's not hard to see why the police were so jumpy.

It's absolutely correct to say that the Met said and did some very stupid things in the immediate aftermath of this accident, as well as disastrously fucking up over their suspect identification in the first place, but I pretty much agree with the policy that you don't give a suicide bomber time to blow themselves up.

[The Legendary Shark]

ISIS/ISIL is a weird organization.
.
It was founded in Iraq in 1999 and originally called "The Organization of Monotheism and Jihad." In 2004 it changed its name to "The Organization of Jihad's Base in the Country of the Two Rivers," or "Al Qaeda in Iraq" (AQI). In 2006 it became the "Islamic State of Iraq" (ISI), but changed again in 2013 to "Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant" (ISIL) or "Islamic State of Iraq and al-Sham" (ISIS). It's been the "Islamic State" (IS) since June 2014, presumably because it's easier to remember.
.
Weirder still is the organization's founder, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, a Sunni militant from Jordan. In April of 2003 al-Zarqawi was killed in the Sulaimaniyah mountains of northern Iraq before being arrested in 2004, re-arrested in Baakuba in January 2005, killed and buried in Fallujah four months later and then killed one last time in 2006.
.
His replacement, Abu Omar al- Badhdadi (Hamid Dawud Mohamed Khalil al Zawi, also known as Abu Abdullah al-Rashid al- Baghdadi and Abu Hamza al-Baghdadi), was captured in 2007, killed in 2007, declared non-existent, arrested in 2009 and killed again in 2010.
.
No wonder everyone's so scared of these guys - it seems to take a lot to discourage them!

[Definitely Not Mister Pops]

Fuck it...

I'm sure you'd be okay with a relative being beheaded for working as a contractor, aid worker or anything similar. How about those Christians crucified the other day, or gay people being killed, for being gay.
What is the line that has to be crossed before you think something is wrong and think something should be done.

From what I've gathered, you were/are a soldier.

Would summarily executing a prisoner* and dumping the body in the sea count as crossing the line?

*regardless of how big a shithead they were, a prisoner as in someone in your custody who has been pacified.

[COMMANDO FORCES]

Let me see, would murdering someone be wrong, I think I'll agree that would be wrong. I'd love to know how we came to this but I'm sure I'll soon see. (I'll apologise in advance if I don't answer straight away, as I'm off to work soon).

It's against the Geneva convention and would be classed as a war crime but that only ever effects the lower ranks in reality. You do a comprehensive bit of training about what is allowed and not allowed but nigh on all of it is common sense.

Before you ask, a shiny bayonet stabbed into the enemy is good. A dirty/rusty bayonet stabbed into the enemy is bad! So if you haven't managed to clean yours due to whatever and the enemy rushes you and you stab him, you could be in the crap.

[Definitely Not Mister Pops]

Let me see, would murdering someone be wrong, I think I'll agree that would be wrong. I'd love to know how we came to this but I'm sure I'll soon see. (I'll apologise in advance if I don't answer straight away, as I'm off to work soon).

It's just that's what happened to Bin Laden. Sorry if I sounded obtuse or if it sounded like I was picking on you specifically, but I think the way Osama Bin Laden was dealt with was wrong. It seemed more like an act of brutal revenge, rather than any kind of justice.

Had he been given a trial the ultimate outcome would be most certainly the same, and rightly so, I just feel that the way he was ultimately dealt with sunk us all to his level.

[TordelBack]

What is the line that has to be crossed before you think something is wrong and think something should be done. I mean in the real world, rather than posting in cyberspace!

As I recall Obama and Co basically did have Bin Laden killed via cyberspace, or at least video feed - I don't recall the Commander in Chief pulling any triggers. And your statement is just as applicable to Al Qaeda, the Taliban and ISIS - presumsbly they feel something should be done too, and see all means as justified. And how much better for everyone if they too adhered to international law.

At no point did I say 'nothing should be done'. Am I glad that murdering fuck Bin Laden got his just desserts? Oh yes indeed. Do I think it should have been done according to the rule of law? Yes to that too.

I'd never question the importance of your insight and experience as a former military man, CF, but happily the military don't make the laws (here). You say US casulaties were the normal consequence of being a war zone - but it wasn't a warzone and they weren't there until someone made it so, largely using the casus beli of Bin Laden and 9/11. That was a decision that directly cost thise lives (and lets not even get into civilian lives), just as the decision to murder Bin Laden did, or the decision to capture him would have.

[Professor Bear]

I'm not really surprised that a squaddie might be in favor of direct military solutions, though I am quite interested to know what CF thinks of the General who said he'd condone a military coup in the UK if Jezza was democratically elected as PM.

[Old Tankie]

What general was that?

[The Legendary Shark]

General Dredd.

[Grugz]

I'm not really surprised that a squaddie might be in favor of direct military solutions, though I am quite interested to know what CF thinks of the General who said he'd condone a military coup in the UK if Jezza was democratically elected as PM.

I think he's got that new series for amazon prime first ,but at least nobody dare go hungry if he got in.

[Richmond Clements]

It appears that the man cannot stop lying.http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/david-cameron-conference-speech-woman-prime-minister-mentioned-says-she-is-a-full-throttle-jeremy-a6685131.html