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Author Topic: Endless tournaments - What’s next? Why it's THE ARTISTS RYDER CUP  (Read 930 times)

Colin YNWA

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So my ongoing torture of these boards with a seemingly endless stream of vote based tournaments continues and next in line is

Artist Ryder Cup - Current vs Classic
 - or ARC-CvC as I might start to type it as I get lazy*!

What is that I hear you cry. Well I’ve mentioned this concept a lot and basically it’s a chance to see whether the old truism that the art in 2000ad was better in the good ol’ days is true. And assuming that holds (I’m 99.8% sure it will) just how wide the margin is.

The idea that the old stuff is better fascinates me as I’m not sure it's true. The problem is the art in the early issues played such a part in defining what we love, I think it would be near impossible for new material to top the old for the long term reader. I certainly fall victim to this. I adore the current crop of artists, I'm sure a good proportion are as good if not better than the artists of my youth, but ask me to say who is better than Mike McMahon and all of a sudden I clam up, get a little nervous and finally stutter out “err henry… flint… probably...” wondering if I’m saying that just to make sure I support current endeavours (I’m not Henry Flint is the definitive 2000ad artist).

I’d love to do a blind test and give examples of art, new and old, to a host of none readers and ask them which is best and see what those not immersed say… alas I can’t do that here and the closest I can get to is TOURNEY!!!!

So here, over the course of a standard number of posts I’ll lay out the format of the tourney. The rules, for what they are. A NEW VOTING SYSTEM - yes I loved the Dredd Ranking Tourney so much I decided to try something else a little different. A way to ignore the new voting system if you think it's rubbish, or can’t be bothered and anything else that comes to mind.

This one will kick Monday 3rd May with a fair wind.

*If I was less lazy I’d no doubt come up with a much smarter acronym than that - its so close to archive


broodblik

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Re: Endless tournaments - What’s next? Why it's THE ARTISTS RYDER CUP
« Reply #1 on: 28 April, 2021, 09:16:32 AM »
This will be quite interesting but again thanks for all your efforts !!!!!!!!!!!!!
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I, Cosh

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Re: Endless tournaments - What’s next? Why it's THE ARTISTS RYDER CUP
« Reply #2 on: 28 April, 2021, 09:22:20 AM »
So here, over the course of a standard number of posts I’ll lay out the format of the tourney. The rules, for what they are. A NEW VOTING SYSTEM - yes I loved the Dredd Ranking Tourney so much I decided to try something else a little different. A way to ignore the new voting system if you think it's rubbish, or can’t be bothered and anything else that comes to mind.
Huzzah! If there's one thing I can definitely get excited about it's very slightly different methods of counting things!

NB Actually serious. Working out infinitesimal improvements to the way we add the same things up is the thing I like about my job.
We never really die.

Colin YNWA

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Re: Endless tournaments - What’s next? Why it's THE ARTISTS RYDER CUP
« Reply #3 on: 28 April, 2021, 09:26:24 AM »
So here, over the course of a standard number of posts I’ll lay out the format of the tourney. The rules, for what they are. A NEW VOTING SYSTEM - yes I loved the Dredd Ranking Tourney so much I decided to try something else a little different. A way to ignore the new voting system if you think it's rubbish, or can’t be bothered and anything else that comes to mind.
Huzzah! If there's one thing I can definitely get excited about it's very slightly different methods of counting things!

NB Actually serious. Working out infinitesimal improvements to the way we add the same things up is the thing I like about my job.

Oh christ its not that interesting - its just a bit different - I might have over stated this!

Colin YNWA

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Re: Endless tournaments - What’s next? Why it's THE ARTISTS RYDER CUP
« Reply #4 on: 28 April, 2021, 12:19:30 PM »
Why the Ryder Cup - new Tourney Format

I don’t like golf, let’s just get that said off the bat… or club... whatever.

When running the artist tourneys I designed them to very deliberately to allow modern artists to get their due. But all the time I was wondering how person x in the Current would do against person y in the Classic, questioning why I needed to separate them votes out, Classic and Current. Just how strong and real is my perception that there is a preference for Classic artists and assuming it is a thing (I still think it is) now strong is that preference? It struck me there was a simple way to test that - like ‘singles match play’ in the Ryder Cup.

There are two teams playing in the tourney, the Classic Artists and the Current Artists - the winner of individual ties don’t really matter (well ish) , it's which team gets the most points that determines which team wins the tourney.

There will be 32 ties in the tourney each consisting of a current artist playing off against one classic artist and while some individual ties might be one sided, hopefully we’d have enough ties for things to balance out over all. The winner of each tie, scores a point for their side, Current or Classic. Draws get ½ point to each side, no need for a casting vote (I get to vote for once!).

So this is going to be a simple tourney, no rounds, no qualifying (we’ve done that already) just 32 straight head to heads and as we go on we’ll get an ongoing score between Classic and Current.

Each tie will be drawn at random, so no seeding or anything like that. Again over the 32 ties that will balance out I figure.

Does that make sense?

The points scored across the 32 ties will give us a simple metric of how many ties the current crop of artists can take off the classic crop of artists. While I fully expect Classic to take the tourney the question I have is by how much.

When we get to voting I’ll explain how I plan to introduce a second metric which will be a little more fine tuned…

Colin YNWA

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Re: Endless tournaments - What’s next? Why it's THE ARTISTS RYDER CUP
« Reply #5 on: 28 April, 2021, 04:51:44 PM »
Who are the ‘players’ for each side?

Well we’ve done this already. I’ve used the 32 artists that qualified for each of the Favourite Arts Tourneys back in November - well I’ve allowed myself one indulgence (per team) - see if you can spot them.

I’ll add a post with each ‘Team’.

Current Artists Team =

Quote
Let's talk Current ART Droids. These are Droids who are still active in the Prog. So those who've done a series, significant number of Dredds, or Cliff Robinson (see notes elsewhere!). I've used Prog 2000 as a cut off point [the one from 2016 that is], or the equivalent Meg 376(ish). These are Droids that we'd not be too surprised, though we'd be delighted to see gracing the Prog at any point still. There may be other reasons why, alas, we know a Droid's work for Tharg has finished, these will be in the Classic section, even if they have had a series since Prog 2000.

Boo Cook
Brendan McCarthy
Chris Weston
Cliff Robinson
Clint Langley
Colin MacNeil
D'Israeli
Dan Cornwell
David Roach
David Taylor
Dom Reardon
Henry Flint
INJ Culbard
Jake Lynch
John Burns
John Higgins
Lee Carter
Leigh Gallagher
Mark Harrison
Neil Googe
Nick Percival
Patrick Goddard
Paul Marshall
Phil Winslade
PJ Holden
Richard Elson
Simon Coleby
Simon Davis
Simon Fraser
Staz Johnson
Steve Yeowell
Tieran Trevallion

abelardsnazz

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Re: Endless tournaments - What’s next? Why it's THE ARTISTS RYDER CUP
« Reply #6 on: 28 April, 2021, 05:53:47 PM »
Sounds great Colin, should cause plenty of discussion a la the Dredd epic tourney!

One question - will it include a round for classic McMahon vs. modern McMahon? I'm a big fan of Howler myself....

Colin YNWA

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Re: Endless tournaments - What’s next? Why it's THE ARTISTS RYDER CUP
« Reply #7 on: 28 April, 2021, 09:05:21 PM »
One question - will it include a round for classic McMahon vs. modern McMahon? I'm a big fan of Howler myself....

Each artist only once. If they qualify for Current and Classic, Current trumps Classic.

And to follow that theme

Classic Artists Team =

Quote
So the divide I went for was Classic, essentially artists who we don’t really expect to appear in the Prog or Meg anytime soon. Whose work for Tharg seems to be done, the odd cover, or one off appearance aside. Alas some we know won’t be adding to their body of work as they have retired or sadly passed away.

Alan Davis
Andy Clarke
Anthony Williams
Arthur Ranson
Brett Ewins
Brian Bolland
Bryan Talbot
Cam Kennedy
Carl Critchlow
Carlos Ezquerra
Colin Wilson
Dave Gibbons
Edmund Bagwell
Frazer Irving
Glenn Fabry
Greg Staples
Ian Gibson
Jesus Redondo
Jock
Jim Baikie
John Hicklenton
John Ridgway
Kev O'Neill
Kev Walker
Massimo Belardinelli
Mike McMahon
Peter Doherty
Ron Smith
Sean Phillips
Simon Bisley
Simon Harrison
Steve Dillon


BPP

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Re: Endless tournaments - What’s next? Why it's THE ARTISTS RYDER CUP
« Reply #8 on: 28 April, 2021, 10:48:01 PM »
The answer is still City of the Dammed.
If I'd known it was harmless I would have killed it myself.

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Re: Endless tournaments - What’s next? Why it's THE ARTISTS RYDER CUP
« Reply #9 on: 28 April, 2021, 10:51:55 PM »
John McCrea & Will Simpson strangely absent!

Humm..... norn iron block will nit be happy...
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Funt Solo

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Re: Endless tournaments - What’s next? Why it's THE ARTISTS RYDER CUP
« Reply #10 on: 29 April, 2021, 12:30:46 AM »
Jock, classic?

Me, old!
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Colin YNWA

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Re: Endless tournaments - What’s next? Why it's THE ARTISTS RYDER CUP
« Reply #11 on: 29 April, 2021, 06:30:10 AM »
John McCrea & Will Simpson strangely absent!

Humm..... norn iron block will nit be happy...

There's a spreadsheet for that. We had a round of qualifying ahead of the Tourneys late last year and rather than repeat that process I've just reused it. There's a host of wonderful artists who didn't make it. I have allowed myself two switches as a cheeky organiser bonus but other than that left them alone.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1rJuOcq5ImJDTY8AwcAek57yr7P6rF8M4hedoQlPzRW4/edit?usp=drivesdk

Colin YNWA

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Re: Endless tournaments - What’s next? Why it's THE ARTISTS RYDER CUP
« Reply #12 on: 29 April, 2021, 06:32:32 AM »
Voting in the Ryder Cup

Voting will be a little different this time:

Essentially rather than a binary a over b, each voter will have 5 votes to distribute as they please. NO HALF MARKS though, only whole numbers.

So if Current Artist A is MILES better than Classic Artist A you can award all 5 votes to Current Artist A = 5 : 0

If Current Artist B is a LOT better than Classic Artist B, but you want to give a nod to Classic Artist B then maybe you’d go for a 4 : 1 split

If it's really tight and there’s a hair's breadth between them maybe you’ll go Current Artist C - 3 votes, Classic Artist C - 2 votes = 3: 2 split

NO HALF MARKS whole numbers only, but you can allocate your 5 votes between the two options in that tie as you like, but have to state a preference. I suppose you don’t even have to use all 5 votes if you don’t want to.

If you can’t be arsed with that faff - that’s fine just name the artist you prefer but I’ll only award them 3 votes - none to the other artist.

Artist with the highest number of votes wins that round and scores a point for their team in the overall score.

Colin YNWA

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Re: Endless tournaments - What’s next? Why it's THE ARTISTS RYDER CUP
« Reply #13 on: 29 April, 2021, 11:17:38 AM »
Why the new voting system?

I thought the fact that ‘Dredd Epics Ranked Better’ had a few differences made it fun and kept things fresh and while we won’t always find ways to do that I’d like to change the way folks vote here, just to spice things up - let’s see how it goes.

This will also give us another metric, a slightly subtler one. The team that wins the tourney (Classic or Current) will be based on whose won the most ties as in Ryder Cup BUT I guess it's possible for that team to get fewer votes over all if they win their ties (more of them) by a small margin and the other teams wins (fewer of them) were all by a wide margin.

This will give us a more refined score and also allow those that get a tough draw, so some poor beggar will get Carlos! To still contribute one aspect of their teams overall score, at least in one respect. So a lesser artist might get battered by Carlos, Henry Flint however might run him close in votes - everyone votes 3 : 2 to Carlos - even though he loses every individual vote he actually gather a lot of votes overall for the Current Team.

Overall, whatever happens Carlos gains one point for the Classic Team in the Tourney as a whole - but the votes score under that could be very different depending on who he draws.

Does that make sense?

Anyway cos the voting is more faffy we’ll just have one tiea day. Over 32 ties that's 6ish weeks for this one (I’ll skip weekends as ever). Each vote will be 3 days as normal.


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Re: Endless tournaments - What’s next? Why it's THE ARTISTS RYDER CUP
« Reply #14 on: 29 April, 2021, 11:41:14 AM »
Why the new voting system?

[yadda yadda]

Does that make sense?

Nope, not a lick.
 :lol:
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