The Political Thread

[vzzbux]

A rape victim giving birth to the act will be constantly reminded of the rape every time she looks at the child. Yes she could give up the child for adoption but imagine the child locating her when it is older. "Mum why did you give me away".
If don't believe in god, why should you be forced by their rules.*
God is such a wonderful deity to allow these things to happen.
*This is a shortened version of what I was going to send but I have deleted quite a lot as I don't want to stir up any shit.




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[TordelBack]

*This is a shortened version of what I was going to send but I have deleted quite a lot as I don't want to stir up any shit.


You're a better man than I - I couldn't even manage a single sentence of response without losing the rag.

[The Legendary Shark]

Tordels is wise.

This is one subject where generalizations definitely fall way short. Unless this is happening to you or those you love, it's best to judge in silence or, if that be your world, talk of it in quiet moments to your God and no one else.

[JOE SOAP]

I know I'm stepping on some touchy territory here, I didn't start it but I'll sure as hell finish it, so let the backlash begin, all form an orderly queue...

You're on a web-forum, what could you possibly finish and how? This ain't a war.

I always thought true Conservatives were all about keeping things at home, not getting involved and telling others how things should be?


You need a weekend at Rancho Relaxo.

[Beaky Smoochies]

Having been involved with abortion three times in my life I can say that the decision is never made lightly and is as intensely emotional as anything you're likely to experience. The guilt and regret I carry are enormous and I can only guess what my exes carry with them.
In my view, the only involvement governments should have in this area (as with all areas of personal life) is to provide clear, helpful information and viable and safe options. The decision is not, never was and never will be theirs.

Well said Shark, my condolences and sympathies to you and your exes on what was no doubt a painful decision not made in haste or cavalierly, but I think government has a duty to protect the most innocent and vunerable in society, and if that's not the unborn, I dunno what is, just my opinion.

a gift of human life, and accept what God is giving to you.

Why is that in any mad or crazy,

Maybe because it suggests that God is allowing rape to occur in order to give people children.
I would have thought that anyone with a modicum of sense, whatever their personal beliefs, would realise that this is a bit of a totally f**ked up thing to say.

That's not what he said or meant, he meant that the actual rape may not have been God's will, but the baby was, I happen to believe there are no 'accidental' people, once again, my opinion.

A rape victim giving birth to the act will be constantly reminded of the rape every time she looks at the child. Yes she could give up the child for adoption but imagine the child locating her when it is older. "Mum why did you give me away".
If don't believe in god, why should you be forced by their rules.*
God is such a wonderful deity to allow these things to happen.

I suggest you talk to a rape victim who had an abortion after the fact, and they'll tell you they wish they could back and undo the abortive act itself, and those who kept the child are thankful every day for the child that may have been conceived in a crime, but they have no regrets about keeping what has turned out to be the greatest thing in their lives, the offspring.

You're on a web-forum, what could you possibly finish and how? This ain't a war.
I always thought true Conservatives were all about keeping things at home, not getting involved and telling others how things should be?
You need a weekend at Rancho Relaxo.

Just a manner of speaking, a touch of hyperbole on my part, Joe dude, and I agree that conservatives are, to a degree, about not telling others how to live their lives, but it's also about sticking up for the most vunerable in society that don't have a voice, and advocating for a society that cherishes life, marriage, and the family, not the destructive ideology of socialism, liberalism, and relativism that has done so much damage these last five or six decades.  No Rancho Relaxo needed here, but what I think I WILL do is maybe give this thread a wide berth in future, it seems to bring out the worst in people, and I like this forum (and EVERYONE on it, yes everyone) too much to stir the doo-doo anymore and potentially cause bad feelings or a feud to arise, so as one Walter Kovacs, a.k.a. Rorshach, eloquently stated "I live my life free of compromise, step into the shadow without complaint or regret...", see y'all on the Dredd threads, 'nuff said.

[vzzbux]

From now on this thread is ABORTED to me.




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[Gonk]

I respect your views Beaky, but I do not share them. The problem for me is, what you're trying to describe would probably be better off under a thread with the heading "My Religious Beliefs" rather than a thread about politics. No hard feelings but I know of a section of the Christian faith who believe blood tranfusions and so on to be against the will of God. You seem to be angling for this with your views on childbirth.

[TordelBack]

The person who tries to separate someone's beliefs from their politics has an odd view of humanity.  Politics are a way to see one's beliefs enacted in the world.  The nature of those beliefs will determine to what extent the individual requires their own beliefs to take precedence over others', but it's always about shaping the kind of world you believe to be the best.  If it's God, Buddha, Marx, Dawkins, Thoreau, B F Skinner, 4Chan, Crowley, drugs, Gary Gygax or Sharky's little voice that shapes the beliefs makes little difference.  Be they rationally determined after a period of prolonged statistical analysis, or handed down on stone tablets, and whether it's 'do what thou wilst' or 'ein reich, ein volk', your beliefs and a helthy dose of expediency are what guide your politics. 

Also, I  don't think that's what Beaky was saying.  He's coming it from a view of individual rights that sees a zygote having an equal weight as an adult.  Whether he's religiously inspired to this... perspective is neither here nor there.

[mygrimmbrother]

Just read through the last few pages of this thread. F*ck me  .

[Eric Plumrose]

a gift of human life, and accept what God is giving to you.

Here in the UK, it's estimated twelve per cent of all clinically recognized pregnancies end in miscarriage. Unrecognized miscarriages are estimated to be between forty and sixty per cent.

God's Will, indeed. And making Him far more prolific than any abortion clinic.

[Spaceghost]

the actual rape may not have been God's will, but the baby was, I happen to believe there are no 'accidental' people, once again, my opinion.

This is something I have trouble understanding. I've heard religious people mention 'God's will' a lot as if events somehow transpire according to some grand plan that God has for us. But also, it's usually said that God gave us free will to allow us to live our own lives free from his influence.

You can't have it both ways. Either God is manipulating events on Earth or he isn't.

Example: a friend at work was involved in a car accident about 20 years ago which resulted in her sister being brain damaged. They are a religious family and took counsel with their priest who gave them the 'God works in mysterious ways' speech.

Now. The man who crashed his car into them; was God steering him into their car? No, the driver was in control and he has free will. Did God make sure my friend's family were parked in that spot ensuring they would be hit? No, they have free will and they had decided it for themselves. All things happen due to people making decisions for themselves and are usually completely random, unless you believe God is planting subliminal suggestions in our minds in order to get us into these situations which is a really creepy thought.

Going back to the scenario above; if God didn't 'will' for the rape to take place, how can he possibly have 'willed' for the child to be born? You can't have one without the other. At what point and in what form did 'God's will' manifest itself?

These kinds of massive gaps in the logic of those who believe in God are extremely harmful in my opinion. They allow a certain absolution from responsibility which is very dangerous.

To paraphrase Judge Dredd; "There is no God, we're on our own and we'll just have to make it work."

[Gonk]

That's not what he said or meant, he meant that the actual rape may not have been God's will, but the baby was, I happen to believe there are no 'accidental' people, once again, my opinion.

Also, I  don't think that's what Beaky was saying.  He's coming it from a view of individual rights that sees a zygote having an equal weight as an adult.  Whether he's religiously inspired to this... perspective is neither here nor there.

It's good that you actually care about life Beaky, but this is a religious view not a political one.

I suppose the politics comes into it when you take the mother out of the equation and insert demographics instead, and look at how many terminations are carried out in our society. Then it's a matter for politicians to argue over numbers, targets and cost, and not the right and wrong of it. Again whether it's right or wrong to terminate a baby is between the mother, her doctor and her god. Not for us to decide.

[The Legendary Shark]

These kinds of massive gaps in the logic of those who believe in God are extremely harmful in my opinion. They allow a certain absolution from responsibility which is very dangerous.

Well put, Lee. The so-called "Christian" leaders like Bush, Obama, Blair and Cameron seem to believe deeply in the concept of Armageddon (the End-Times tumult bit, not the location) as they are doing their best to hasten it, most lately by itching for a nuclear war with Iran. Strange how these same "Christians" seem to give only the scantest lip service to the concept of peace, tolerance and loving thine enemy.

[TordelBack]

I suppose the politics comes into it when you take the mother out of the equation and insert demographics instead, and look at how many terminations are carried out in our society. Then it's a matter for politicians to argue over numbers, targets and cost, and not the right and wrong of it.

I don't get you here, Wonky.  Politics is just the means by which a group makes decisions collectively.  What guides the motivations of individual actors in that group is irrelevant - religious conviction is just as much a factor in politics as economic theory, tradition, prejudice, altruism, selfishness, adherence to a philosophical or sociological model etc.  You can't divorce religiously inspired aspirations for how the group should act from all the other motivations, just because it's based on (say) a specific Bronze Age urge for lebensraum.   You and I might hope that someone would lobby or vote in line with the best principles of live-and-let-live leavened with the guidance of scientific process, but that doesn't mean that religious belief has no place in a political discussion - once somebody acts on it to guide the group's decision making, it's become political:  Beaky's viewpoint is a political one, because it (tries to) affect group decisions.  Would that it were otherwise (he said, exercising his own beliefs).

[The Legendary Shark]

George Carlin - Pro-Life is Anti-Woman!

Also, if you want to belive in someone, believe in Carl Sagan.