The Political Thread

[Jimmy Baker's Assistant]

This is of course what Miliband is relying on, but it seems spiteful and just plain dishonest to attempt to pretend the SNP doesn't exist and assume it will or should nod through Labour policy. Funny how 'better together' has turned into 'better together... but only if you elect the 'right' MPs'...

Well, Labour has to make it clear that a vote for the SNP is not a vote for a Labour UK government.

However, the problem with SNP votes on English-only issues is the same problem that would occur if Labour used their own non-English MPs to force through legislation applying only to England, that a majority of English MPs oppose. In a constitutional sense it makes no difference which party the Scottish MPs represent, only that they could overrule a party with an English majority on English-only votes.

English devolution would fix this disparity (which I appreciate was in place in reverse before devolution in the other parts of the UK was introduced in the late 90s).

Of course SNP MPs should (and will) have the same mandate to vote on UK-wide issues as all other MPs.

[The Legendary Shark]

Did you know that some people breed foxes specifically for the hunt? I only found this out recently in conversation with an old huntsman from the St Helens area.
.
So, maybe we should breed politicians specifically to be hanged...

[IndigoPrime]

English devolution would fix this disparity

Only if regional devolution was enacted. 'England' as a bloc is too big, and will be entirely London-centric if it ends up with its own parliament. (English votes for English laws also strikes me as something of a stitch-up—it's no coincidence such an argument always comes from the right. Maybe post-PR, when we've a more representative government, such as thing might make a bit more sense.)

[Jimmy Baker's Assistant]

Only if regional devolution was enacted. 'England' as a bloc is too big, and will be entirely London-centric if it ends up with its own parliament. (English votes for English laws also strikes me as something of a stitch-up—it's no coincidence such an argument always comes from the right. Maybe post-PR, when we've a more representative government, such as thing might make a bit more sense.)

Devolution to the English regions was the original idea, but there are no such places. England is a country, South-East England is a phrase on a weather forecast.

"English votes for English laws" and indeed Labour's wonkish "English committee stage for English laws" don't really solve the problem because they don't treat England and Scotland (and Wales and Northern Ireland) as the same. I believe that until there's parity there's inevitably going to be bitterness on all sides.

[Spikes]

Devolution to the English regions was the original idea, but there are no such places.

Are you sure on that?

[IndigoPrime]

Quite. Using that argument, why don't we vote England-wide for MEPs? Also, if we move to STV, it'd be hideous England-wide. Would need to be local to some extent: region or county. Same if the Lords became a senate. I'd hate to see the senate comprising Welsh, NI, Scottish and English senators—would need to be the first three and English regions or it would be Wales, NI, Scotland and London.

[Jimmy Baker's Assistant]

Devolution to the English regions was the original idea, but there are no such places.

Are you sure on that?

Am I sure that was the original idea, or am I sure there are no such places?

Yes to the former, here's what happened:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3984387.stm

Yes to the latter, I live in one of those supposed regions, and it forms no part of my identity (I believe the people of the North East felt the same, hence the 2004 result).

[Jimmy Baker's Assistant]

Quite. Using that argument, why don't we vote England-wide for MEPs? Also, if we move to STV, it'd be hideous England-wide. Would need to be local to some extent: region or county. Same if the Lords became a senate. I'd hate to see the senate comprising Welsh, NI, Scottish and English senators—would need to be the first three and English regions or it would be Wales, NI, Scotland and London.

England is much bigger, in term of population, than the other UK countries. Trying to break it up is not going to work. I also don't get the hostility to London.

[Spikes]

I live in one of those supposed regions, and it forms no part of my identity

Sure, the English regions are a man-made construct, but so is England itself
But you seem to be saying that the English regions dont even exist at all, is that what you are saying?
Just curious as to your original post is all.

[Jimmy Baker's Assistant]

Sure, the English regions are a man-made construct, but so is England itself
But you seem to be saying that the English regions dont even exist at all, is that what you are saying?
Just curious as to your original post is all.

They certainly don't exist as nations comparable to Scotland, Wales and NI.

The whole point of devolving to regions rather than England as a whole is to try to avoid a national government becoming so powerful that it rivals the UK government. I can understand that is a legitimate concern, but I think it's highly unlikely that the English will vote for regional devolution in preference to a national version.

I should also make it clear at this point that I am not a Conservative or UKIP voter (I float, but mostly between Greens & LibDems) and that I was persuaded of the case for a Federal UK by a Scottish Yes voter.

[The Legendary Shark]

Aren't most of our "laws" drafted behind closed doors in Brussels anyway? If so, what does it matter whether the regions have their own assemblies or not?

[Richmond Clements]

Aren't most of our "laws" drafted behind closed doors in Brussels anyway?

No.

[The Legendary Shark]

Okay, then. Assemble away.

[Dandontdare]

Am I the only one that finds it hilarious that Ed Milliband manged to talk Russell Brand out of his "don't vote" policy - only for Russ to tell everybody to vote Green.

[IndigoPrime]

The whole point of devolving to regions rather than England as a whole is to try to avoid a national government becoming so powerful that it rivals the UK government

Not really. The point of devolving to regions is so said regions can make adjustments to policy that directly benefit the people who live there, depending on local economies and other factors. What works for Manchester doesn't necessarily work for Truro.