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2000ad All female creative teams in 2018 Summer Special

Started by Colin YNWA, 07 February, 2018, 06:41:46 PM

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Apestrife

#105
Quote from: marko10174 on 12 February, 2018, 07:34:09 AM

I just think it's a little too easy to call people god knows what these days, and resort to labels because "they" disagree with me.

I could be wrong, but I think your jokes calling people sjw:s, leftists and what not flew over everyones' heads.

SuperSurfer

Quote from: sheridan on 12 February, 2018, 12:55:16 PM
Quote from: Professor Bear on 12 February, 2018, 12:33:44 PM
NAZIS: Kill all the jews.  Put them in gas chambers with the queers.
SJWS: No.
MODERATES: It's the SJWs intransigence I'm most angry at.

And just so we're all on the page - while the reference to Nazism dates all this to the 1940s, there are assaults on jews, muslims, women, transgender happening across the world to this day (I've seen more recent headlines, but typically the most recent I could find on a quick search of BBC News just now was damage to a Jewish cemetery last year and the usual attacks on transgender people).
And not just Jews and Muslims. Christians have been under attack in many Middle Eastern and even southeastern European countries/regions. 

JayzusB.Christ

Quote from: marko10174 on 10 February, 2018, 10:07:20 PM

This is a comment that was posted on the 2000ad facebook page. Couldn't have put it better myself.


Whilst I'm all for the empowerment of women in society, I've always felt that an important part of 2000ad's soul has been it's anti establishment, fuck off to the mainstream attitude. So in buying into the 2018 year of the women token societal gesture is in essence, conforming to popular cultural opinion and pressure. Doesn't seem very punk/fuck you, to me? Thoughts?

Here are mine then. 

The White House is currently staffed almost exclusively by straight white males.  The President of the USA has attacked women's appearances when they spoke against his politics, and has bragged about using his status to sexually assault them. He has seriously suggested banning all Muslims from his country (including, I suppose, my friendly and helpful work colleague who I have seen tell people off for killing flies, and my mate Nadia who I have been out on the piss with many times); and settle for banning whole countries.  His VP thinks that gay people can, and should, be 'cured' with electric shock treatment.

If the Trump administration is too easy a target, let's go farther East - Putin's Russia sees the promotion of LGBT relationships as harmful propaganda, while China's state media administration banned images of homosexuals from TV in 2016.

This is the establishment, the authorities, the powers-that-be.  In supporting civil rights for the people who have most been denied them, you are not being mainstream or bandwagon-hopping.  As Jim points out, you're just doing what's right.  That's why you'll find that it's the majority opinion on this board - people who have grown up with 2000ad tend to be independent thinkers.

You accused me personally of speaking like an 'SJW' - more a fan than a warrior, dear boy, but if you insist on the latter, I'll take it.  Social justice, in my opinion, is a good thing.  The powerful, moneyed-up establishment doesn't give too much of a fuck about justice in society, and when you've been conditioned to see the words 'social justice' as part of a pejorative put-down, you're not really rebelling against the authorities, are you? On the contrary, you've become exactly what the authorities want you to be - an unpaid mouthpiece for the upholders of the long-term status quo.

If you want to address the balance, then, of an all-female-created 2000ad special; just pick up pretty much any other special that 2000ad has published.  With very few exceptions, it's straight white males all the way - the publications may not be advertised as such, but they don't really need to be, do they? (By the way one of my favourite, and one of the best-established, 2000ad creators isn't straight. But Tharg doesn't really care as long as he's creating good stories.)
"Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest"

Tjm86

Quote from: TordelBack on 12 February, 2018, 12:48:13 PM
Maybe if we come up with some middle ground, halfway between the positions?  Say we kill half the Jews (the particularly Jewish ones, they're the most troublesome), or just let them starve in the camps, rather than gassing them? What's important is that we acknowledge and respect everyone's views (well, apart from the Jews, obviously).

You know Tordels, for a brief moment I thought this was serious.  What I would say is that it is a seriously subtle way of showing the core problem with the classical liberal worldview; there are some positions that are just utterly wrong!  Kudos.

Leigh S

Just a few points really

Firstly, I am no expert (or indeed great fan) of Punk music, but I don;t think it would be controversial to say that one of the great things about Punk was that it encouraged loads of women to actually create rather than just consume music...

Secondly, you don't need to have a daughter or a partner to want them to have as wide a choice of opportunities as possible, surely?  Though it helps to be able to think my Elsie night one day be drawing or scripting the adventures of reknowned SJWs such as Johnny Alpha  or Nemesis The Warlock,  fighting for mutant and alien rights though the deluded cucktards may be (have I made that one up?)

I wish I could have lived in a world where my would be wife had as much chance of doing a "man's job" as myself - it would beat moaning about office politics all night! Why would you not ant that world for future generations?  If you are upset that people think differently to the white middle aged man, does excluding these people on gender and race grounds help resolve that gap, or make it wider?




TordelBack

Quote from: Leigh S on 12 February, 2018, 03:50:46 PM
...cucktards... (have I made that one up?)

Perfectly cromulent term, mix it up all the better to own it.

Every time I  read the word 'cuck', I get flashbacks to my English teacher explaining what Shakespeare (and Chaucer) meant by 'wearing cuckold's horns', an expression so antiquated then (the '80s) that I had no clue whatsoever. A 14th C portmanteau that marries the laying habits of cuckoos and the mating habits of stags: you just have to admire that level of commitment to being conservative.

Steven Denton

Some guy on Facebook said:

"Sometimes the only way to redress an imbalance is with an imbalance. If you want more women in comics, or science, or computing, or more whoever in whatever, you have to actively seek them out, create opportunities and nurture their talent.

You have to put more work, more time and more money to give the same opportunity. It's not equal but it is fair."

TordelBack

#112
I'd extend that sentiment by saying that that all that alleged 'work, time and money' (I'd actually argue 'thought' might be cover it) is an investment, rather than a cost, for a business. You're increasing the talent pool you can access by up to 50%, as well as a potentially fresh range of perspectives, experiences and approaches.  I'm lucky enough to work in a specific corner of a profession that is usually 50/50 on gender grounds* (and appears to be entirely accepting of diverse sexuality, although shockingly white) and would certainly never want to move back to the kind of single-sex environments that (say) the construction industry still enjoys, and which I get to experience all too often.




*Although the usual issues of impact of maternity leave and childcare imbalance arise here too: just that it's such a shitty career for everyone that it's hard to tell.

Geoff

Quote from: Steven Denton on 12 February, 2018, 05:40:16 PM
Some guy on Facebook said:

"Sometimes the only way to redress an imbalance is with an imbalance. If you want more women in comics, or science, or computing, or more whoever in whatever, you have to actively seek them out, create opportunities and nurture their talent.

You have to put more work, more time and more money to give the same opportunity. It's not equal but it is fair."

Given that gender equality is the subject here, in comics and I suppose more broadly, this is the sort of question that arises and is up for discussion I think.

The extent to which just equality of opportunity can rectify an imbalance and to what extent action should be taken to bring about equality of outcome. Redressing an imbalance with an imbalance may involve unfairness to individuals but it can potentially be justified if it's striving for more equal outcomes. To what extent, I suppose is one of the questions...

I think references to bigotry, Naziism and the Holocaust are not just hyperbolic in the context of this thread but completely inappropriate. Such swift recourse to these things trivialises them, although I am sure that is absolutley not the intention of the writers. 

I mean no offence to the writers and I appreciate people have different ways of expressing themselves. I'm not on social media other than this forum (does this count as social media..?) and 2000ad related Facebook pages. No one I know reads 2000ad so it's an opportunity to discuss what goes on in 2000ad (art/stories) and like this thread it's wider relevance such as it is...

I find this kind of divisiveness off-putting... suppose that's my problem though.

Anyway enough of my ramblings..   

Steven Denton

Quote from: Geoff on 12 February, 2018, 06:24:34 PM
Quote from: Steven Denton on 12 February, 2018, 05:40:16 PM
Some guy on Facebook said:

"Sometimes the only way to redress an imbalance is with an imbalance. If you want more women in comics, or science, or computing, or more whoever in whatever, you have to actively seek them out, create opportunities and nurture their talent.

You have to put more work, more time and more money to give the same opportunity. It's not equal but it is fair."

Given that gender equality is the subject here, in comics and I suppose more broadly, this is the sort of question that arises and is up for discussion I think.

The extent to which just equality of opportunity can rectify an imbalance and to what extent action should be taken to bring about equality of outcome. Redressing an imbalance with an imbalance may involve unfairness to individuals but it can potentially be justified if it's striving for more equal outcomes. To what extent, I suppose is one of the questions...

Anyway enough of my ramblings..   

This is the argument.

In this specific case there are two question:

1. Is the current open submissions policy of 2000ad attracting the desired diversity of creator?

2. Is a special dedicated to new female talent, printed outside of the normal cycle, which remains uninterrupted, too much positive action?


TordelBack

Geoff,  the (admittedly hyperbolic) allusions to Nazis were by way of illustrating the point that some views are fundamentally wrong, and with those there can be zero compromise, even at the risk of perpetuating and entrenching divisions. One such view is that there is no need to address the imbalance in creator gender in comics,  and specifically 'our' comic. There plainly is a need, and the current topic represents the tiniest of steps in that direction. I don't see any room for dissent here that doesn't place one firmly in the camp of self-absorbed sexist git.

Richard

Yes, it's not that sexism and Nazism are morally equivalent, it's only an analogy.

Leigh S

While I am interested in Alec Worley and Ben Willsher's Durham Red, she is a bit of a weaker character in many respects - compare to the more nuanced Anderson, De Marco, Hershey et al, Durham Red feels a bit "retro" in her sexy vamp cliches (to be kind!).  The recent 40th anniversary story by Lauren Beukes/DanHalvorsen seems a good example of how having a female writer can work without recasting the character that much (Abnett/Harrison recasting having its own set of issues!)

I don't see how more of that kind of thing could ever be a problem?

Big_Dave

Ah, yes..."let's debate them.  It will force them into the light, and everyone will see their opinions for what they are, and they'll grow into better people and the world will be lovely."

It's gone well so far, hasn't it?  People who complain about " leftist SJWs" taking over the world, we frequently see them change their minds just because someone took the trouble to debate them, don't we?


nominate these 2 heros for kTTs (link)


marko10174

Quote from: jacob g on 12 February, 2018, 12:30:32 PM
Quote from: marko10174 on 12 February, 2018, 07:34:09 AM

You don't know what "my side" is.

It's kind of funny. You started with quote, full of misconceptions about main topic caliming that this quote is perfect explanation of your views, but few moments later you resort to playing the victim and retracting from previous statement. We know what is your side since 10 February, 2018, 10:07:20 pm.

  So what is my side? I agreed with one quote, you can tell what my side is based on that? I don't agree at all that I was playing the victim. It's very easy to accuse a person who is out numbered during a debate of being a victim, when all I was actually doing was explaining myself and responding to people. I honestly don't believe I was being misogynistic, or a bigot. I was actually a bit taken back by some of the reactions, obviously people felt I was being those things, but I honestly didn't think I was, maybe naivety on my behalf. But making the argument that when people are faced with views that they don't agree with (or even find repugnant)then they are totally justified in responding in what ever way they see fit, instead of actually being liberal and listening to other peoples views is a bit tit for tat. But yeah, it was getting very school yard at times.