The Political Thread

[Modern Panther]

You also said that organization and cooperation would continue.  So presumably there is a "we".  If "I" do something, there is no need for organization.

Out of curiosity, what would prove the authority of government to you?  Because if nothing would, then there's little point in discussion.

The problem Sharky, is that you worship the God of Recidivism. 
You believe that there is a powerful force in the world, which cannot be seen or controlled by traditional mean.  This force controls everything behind the scene, leaving most people in a powerless state. 

You are unwilling to accept the existence of any rules placed upon you which you are not in favour of. 

You are happy to ignore any form of evidence which doesn't agree with your pre-defined beliefs, ignoring experts and science alike.

But you believe strongly that we can all be free...if only we see the light and accept our personal responsibility and believe what you believe.  Only then will a new world be formed, in which everything is fair and good and right (in so far as you have defined it).  And a new dawn will come, and all the people of the world will be free.  And not have to pay tax, which is of course the devil-camerons work and would probably only be spent on war anyway.

Of course, everyone else is entitled to their opinion.  As long as they accept that they are uninformed and that only followers of the God of Recidivism know the true way.  If only they would spend more time on the internet, reading the wisdom of people who truly understand how oppressed we all are.

[James Dilworth]

Hey there, Shark.  Have you ever gotten checked for Bipolar Disorder?

[Big_Dave]

I'm so lost and confused as to how to even understand how to deal with the so called "migrant crisis". It's just such a touchy and awful subject i'm not certain i've enough worldly experience about me to have an opinion on the matter despite it being a hot button topic right now.

the uk share of refugees would be around 10 thousand
there are 43 thousand towns & cities in the uk

if half those 10 thousand are families with 2 children
1 in 7 towns or cities would have to take either a single refugee or a family of four

the idea that uk economy & society couldnt cope with that is silly
the nearest Syrian refugee to me would be 9 miles away - in a city of 90 thousand people

[The Legendary Shark]

I can be part of an organisation and I can cooperate with others. Or not - it's my choice, the same choice we all have.
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If you can prove the authority of government to me, I'll shut up.
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I don't know what you mean by "worshipping the God of Recidivism."
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I believe there are various powerful forces in the world which can be seen. Some of them can be controlled (the human agencies) and some cannot (the natural ones). The human forces have limited but strategic control of some things and influence over others. I further believe that the only powerless people are those who believe themselves to be powerless.
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Yes, I do dispute the authority of rules I don't believe to be fair or legitimate. Don't we all?
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I'm happy to examine any form of evidence which doesn't agree with my beliefs, listening to experts and science alike. I don't know everything and I'm certain that some of the things I do know are wrong.
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If the only way for you to be free is to believe what I believe, then you won't be free, will you? You must find your own freedom in your own beliefs just as I find my own freedom in mine.
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The world will not change overnight; there isn't a big switch somewhere with "Pull For Utopia" written on it. The world evolves slowly, erratically and unpredictably. Only those who pretend to be in charge would have us believe otherwise.
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Taxes are not inherently evil and can be used positively to solve a great many problems - just like any societal tool. Like any societal tool, however, taxes can be misused. It's the misuse I object to, not the tool itself.
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All of us are uninformed and nobody knows the True Way. All we can do is the best we can with what we know and strive to learn more from whatever sources are available to us.
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No, Dilbert, I haven't. Have you?

[James Dilworth]

No, Dilbert, I haven't. Have you?

I've struggled with manic depression at various points in my life, yes.

Just saying I get the impression you might be having a manic episode and maybe you should talk to someone about it.  Your GP is probably the best place to start.

All the best.

[TordelBack]

Some gorgeous writing on both sides of the argument here. Particular mention to JPM for concise brutal eloquence.

Great to see these ideas teased out, although always worth remembering that for better or worse (okay, definitely worse) Sharky walks the walk, so is not just some keyboard philosopher bashing out anarchist idealism over a venti soy latte.

[NapalmKev]

Sharky walks the walk...

As do a lot of people, and usually in a more constructive fashion rather than "my own private Idaho will work and Fuck any evidence to the contrary".

The question I asked was more than valid, Shark. You are the one who talks in terms of what we can and should do. And when pushed on the matter you turn it around putting the onus onto others.

I actually think we do need a revolution, but it would be nice to have something to put in its place, other than words.

Cheers

[The Legendary Shark]

Nothing needs adding, Kev. We have all we need to run society how we want. Take supermarkets as an example; thousands of people from suppliers to delivery drivers to warehouse workers to checkout staff to managers all work together in order to bring food to society - and they manage this without any direction from government. There is no coercion involved, only cooperation. There is not one single law forcing anyone to produce a single morsel of food, but food there is in abundance.
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Indeed, government only makes the process more difficult by demanding money for licenses, demanding its cut from wages and profits and purchases of land, building, equipment and vehicles. And if these demands are not met, government sends around uniformed thugs to hurt people.
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Nothing needs to be added to society, Kev. Just one thing needs taking away - the irrational belief in the authority of "government." The sun doesn't stop rising when one stops believing in God just as society doesn't collapse if one stops believing in "government."
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Dilworth, apologies for getting your name wrong, I don't think I'm insane - but then people never think they are, I suppose. I used to suffer from depression a lot but, since turning my back on those who wanted to control me (the "government") I have found within myself a resilience, confidence and peace I never knew I had. I don't deny that in a materialistic sense I have lost out massively (home, furniture, my book and comic collections, etc., etc.) after the "authorities" stole virtually everything from me for the "crime" of disagreeing with them but, in myself, I am happier and profoundly less prone to depression than I've been in over a decade. Once I freed myself of the learned helplessness (largely, anyway - that conditioning ran deep and I still run across vestiges of it within myself from time to time) my depression went with it.
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Ceasing to believe in the "authority of government" is a scary thing to do but has many and varied benefits.

[Modern Panther]

I don't know what you mean by "worshipping the God of Recidivism."

I was referencing your "worship of State" nonsense.  You also compared the legal and moral argument about accepting the role of government to a strawman believe in volcano gods.  It's not nice when someone compares your considered viewpoint to a baseless religious faith.

government only makes the process more difficult by demanding money for licenses, demanding its cut from wages and profits and purchases of land, building, equipment and vehicles.

and health and safety laws, and food standards, and building roads and schools and hospitals. And paying the nurses and firefighters you compared to slaves. Luckily...

Taxes are not inherently evil and can be used positively to solve a great many problems - just like any societal tool. Like any societal tool, however, taxes can be misused. It's the misuse I object to, not the tool itself.

however, we can't collect them since

Government requires authority otherwise it would not be government - but how do 66.1% of the voting population pass on authorities they do not themselves possess (to take other people's money and push them around) to those they voted for?

because even though a bunch of individuals is happy to decide that they, as a group, should have more power that they do as individuals, and that this acceptance of authority is all that is required for authority to exist...

they cannot delegate rights and authorities they do not possess to anyone else. Government, then, logically has no authority and, without authority, cannot exist.

so we should all just make up our own minds about stuff and do whatever we please.  Buts that's okay since...

A lack of government does not mean that organisation and cooperation cease to exist.

after all...

Take supermarkets as an example

large, multinational organisations run by millionaires who sell food grow by people who often scrape by, working long hours to provide for their families.  There is no contradiction here, since...

There is not one single law forcing anyone to produce a single morsel of food

and without government, there would also be no single law preventing anyone from working in a toxic environment for 18 hours a day, or employing four year olds, or increasing profits by adding sawdust to your bread.

[ZenArcade]

Say it like it is Modern Panther. Z

[Professor Bear]

While it's gratifying to see public support for refugees, is anyone else wondering why we're supposed to care about dead babies on the beach all of a sudden?  Only last week, hundreds of refugees drowned and I didn't notice any front page headlines declaring OH THE HUMANITY then - Katie Hopkins didn't even bother deleting that tweet where she said that she wanted to see dead immigrants floating in the sea.
But now we care for some reason - even the Daily Mail is banging on about doing something for the plight of the refugees - and the media is closing ranks to push this narrative.

The refugees seem to be from Syria, so are we fixing to go bomb that now or something?  I assume there must be oil there, as well as a reason to get embroiled in a military action with IS - gotta keep that war money flowing.

[ZenArcade]

One picture tells a thousand stories. Cliché I know. Z

[Professor Bear]

That picture of a dad cradling his infant son who only had his face left on his head said plenty about the bombing of Gaza, but I didn't notice outrage then.

It's not that I don't think people are capable of this kind of compassion, it's that I don't see why the media is enabling it in a united front.  We're being sold something again, and if dead kids is what we like to see on front pages, we'll get plenty of that once our government starts feeding teenagers to the IS propaganda machine.

[TordelBack]

Struggling to avoid slipping into our island malaise (whatabouttery) myself, but look, whatever gets it done.  I found myself moved to tears in the newsagent during the week, and it's not like I've been insensible to this business prior to this.

What still disturbs me beyond reason is the knowledge that this isn't even the top of the peak of the tip of the iceberg that we're sailing towards this century. Accommodating 10s of 1000s of refugees in your country? Oooh, tricky. Well it's going to be many millions within a handful of decades, as Africa's population doubles and the trebles and the global climate goes to shit. Time to get our head around the longterm, and stop whining about the merest hint of what's to come. No wall, no camp, no blockade is going to help - we need to change how we think about resource and space and 'national territory', and NOW.

[ZenArcade]

We need to stop fucking wrecking these places (or being facilitators for the wrecking); we need to assist the people in need with our aid money, not hand it to corrupt scumbag third world leaders (or use it as a sweetner for arms deals with said scumbag third world leaders). I don't think for one moment forcing these nations best qualified and most able citizens to take their much needed skills out of countries which desperately need them into countries which frankly seem antipathic to them is any answer either. Z