The Political Thread

[IndigoPrime]

Balls is a cretin, but no worse than George Osborne, who I wouldn't trust to manage a piggy lank. I think Miliband's all right, though. But then you're not voting for individuals: you're voting for a local representative, who'll also likely be whipped into voting for policy in a party's manifesto.

On personal taxes, I always find them a bit of a red herring. My taxes could go down under a Tory government, but as a self-employed person, I'd sooner the NHS exists. Otherwise I'll be paying less tax but end up with a second mortgage-sized hole in my bank account every month as a US system takes hold. Also, higher taxes for the more wealthy can be used to take people who have less out of the system entirely. Trickle down is bullshit, but the reverse has a net boost to the economy has many more people suddenly find themselves with the means to pay for things.

As for Clegg, I like him on telly (he was great both times on the Last Leg), but he can get fucked for his scaremongering over the SNP, and his recent arguments that a Labour minority government would not be legitimate if it had fewer seats than the Conservatives. He bloody well knows the way the UK parliament works, and it has NOTHING to do with seat count if you don't have a majority—it's about the confidence of the house. Hell, his own party's history found that out last century.

I would say that the Liberal Democrat manifesto was broadly very good, and far stronger than Labour's. But we don't get to see that party because of Orange Bookers taking over. Still, had we got what we voted for last time round, Lab/Lib would have been viable and interesting. Alas.

[CrazyFoxMachine]

So, I'm still undecided. I have just four candidates to choose from here in Crewe & Nantwich and Judge Dredd has told me to vote, so I can't abstain. To summarise my thoughts...

http://democraticdashboard.com/constituency/crewe-and-nantwich/

Seems a rather tough race in your constituency there Banners - hmmmm, not a lot of choice! I think forming your own party would be pretty healthy for the area, it needs an alternative!

The whole election lark is an interesting one - with everyone there seems to different amounts of it they are willing to swallow. I've said previously the only real option with the second hung parliament election in as many years is to open up the voting a bit more - whether through PR or some other means orsumfink (see - I'm at least open about not having thought-out a proper solution) but the first-past-the-post-system is clearly archaic and encourages deep apathy and indifference. No system that can't change will work forever.

Aaaanyway - I'm lucky to be in a very active constituency with lots of super-engaged folk and the Greens even have a relatively strong shot against brilliantly-named Labour candidate THANGAM DEBONNAIRE. So today I'm going to be voting Green - and knowing that by doing so I'm not "wasting my vote" or "leaving the door open" for anyone worse than Thangam who seems alright and plays the motherfucking cello.

HOWEVER - many folk nationally are in Banners or Jim's position where they just have a few local candidates and it boils down to the binary "blue or red" choice - plumping for the least bad thing. Which has never seemed very democratic to me. So whatever happens tomorrow I hope that nationally there is a re-think of how the system actually engages individuals in the street who are, y'know, meant to be the people being represented.

[IndigoPrime]

There is no wasted vote. Say 5% vote Green and they get one seat. Then 5% vote SNP but they get 50. 15% vote UKIP and they get maybe three. The calls for electoral reform will become a cacophony that even Lab/Con cannot ignore. Well, hopefully.

[Jim_Campbell]

So whatever happens tomorrow I hope that nationally there is a re-think of how the system actually engages individuals in the street who are, y'know, meant to be the people being represented.

I strongly suspect that this may be the last general election we see under first past the post — whatever government we end up with, it's going to bear so little resemblance to how people have actually voted that the current system may have to be written off as unsustainable.

Cheers

Jim

[Jim_Campbell]

15% vote UKIP and they get maybe three.

A similar number vote LibDem and they get about thirty.

I agree. I don't think the current system will stand.

Tangent: independent Scotland within ten years, I reckon. rUK leaving the EU too close to call.

And yet the election has hinged on bashing benefit scroungers, immigration and who looks least like a twat eating a bacon cob.

This is what happens when politics is led by focus groups and not leaders.

Cheers

Jim

[CrazyFoxMachine]

And yet the election has hinged on bashing benefit scroungers, immigration and who looks least like a twat eating a bacon cob.

This is what happens when politics is led by focus groups and not leaders.

And there we have a great election quote of the day!

[Dandontdare]

So whatever happens tomorrow I hope that nationally there is a re-think of how the system actually engages individuals in the street who are, y'know, meant to be the people being represented.

I strongly suspect that this may be the last general election we see under first past the post

Indeed - an alternative system was never going to happen when the two top parties were just swapping power every few years, but if, as the pollsters predict, we're going to get hung results almost permanently from now on, they'll quickly change their tune. We must beware though -they will ONLY support whatever system they think is going to keep them in power, however fair or unfair it may be.

[The Legendary Shark]

JBC, you're absolutely correct. I will never be prime minister for three (at least) very good reasons. Firstly, I don't want to be and even running for office would be against my personal beliefs. Secondly, nobody would vote for me. Thirdly, the changes I'd want to implement would be too drastic to undertake all at once - there would be panic, mistrust and unrest. The changes I'd like to see must be introduced gradually, from the bottom up. The people must first realise their own power and learn to use it properly and wisely - which is still a huge ask but necessary none the less.
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To your second point; no, I would not vote in a referendum for anything, including gay rights. I don't believe in gay rights (cue gasps of horror). I don't believe in straight rights, either. Nor do I believe in women's rights, men's rights, children's rights, adults' rights or seniors' rights. I believe in human rights. Period.
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The problem, in my view, of voting for gay rights is no different from voting for a political party. What the voter is doing is begging the people who believe themselves to be the final arbiters of which rights we can and cannot have for more. I know what my rights are - I was born with them, just like everyone else. I don't have the right to tell anyone else what their rights are (except visitors to my own home; my home, my rules) and nobody, not even a prime minister, president or monarch, has the right to tell me what my rights are. A referendum requesting more rights is nothing of the sort - it's simply a request for privileges; Oliver Twist with his bowl asking politely for more.
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If a person wants to discriminate against certain people in their personal lives then that's up to them; but that person has no right whatsoever to expect the rest of society to condone or agree.
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Rights, just like charity and freedom, begin at home. They cannot be endowed or removed by anyone.

[Grey M@a]

So, I'm still undecided. I have just four candidates to choose from here in Crewe & Nantwich and Judge Dredd has told me to vote, so I can't abstain. To summarise my thoughts...

Tories. My tax has come down significantly, and the NHS has treated us well, countering many arguments against them. Business leaders and the markets seem to prefer them. But I don't like how they equate wealth with fairness, and there seems to be a general lack of compassion in their outlook – surely I'm not just voting from a selfish point of view, but for the betterment of the country (and the people in it) as a whole. The local candidate seems okay, and replied to a recent letter, albeit his response was fairly useless. George Osborne didn't reply to a letter. I've not seen any Tories campaigning which smacks of complacency, and there aren't any cool people urging me to vote Tory.

Labour. The idea of Ed Milliband and Ed Balls running the country is terrifying to me – I can't imagine either of them achieving anything in a professional capacity in the real world. I like Labour's old socialist values, but they're long gone and all I've heard this time is that they're about hard-working families and saving the NHS, but under the last Labour government my taxes were higher and they burdened the NHS with lots of PFI debts. The stock-market seems to have gone down as the chance of Labour getting a majority has increased, and I think they want to raise Corporation Tax, which as a small business, I find unacceptable already. I don't like the idea of a coalition with the SNP, although – admittedly – they've ruled that out. Labour are the only party who've actually come to our house and tried to talk to me, which I appreciate, although I confess I was a bit rude as the lady tried to accost me as I was struggling to get our crying baby out of the car. Lots of people I like and respect – including many creative types, musicians, people on here and the majority of people in my Twitter feed – are urging people to vote Labour. The local candidate is a doctor which has advantages, but he is a little underwhelming imho.

Lib Dems. I like Nick Clegg and think he has been unfairly scape-goated over Tuition Fees (it's not like the Lib Dems won last time, after all). I've voted Lib Dem before, but we're in what has according to polls become a Tory/Labour marginal, so I don't want to 'waste' my vote this time.

UKIP. I confess I kind of like Nigel Farage, even though I don't like or agree with what he says (if that makes sense!) But, no.

So, just four to choose from. No Green candidate, no Left Unity candidate (sadly), and no Independents, which I think is a huge shame as even if their policies aren't entirely convincing one can respect their drive and ambition (as long as they're not too extreme).

It's not like a favourite band I'm passionate about, where I want to wave a flag and run around telling everybody how cool they are. There's no candidate or party whose t-shirt I want to wear – there's no-one I actively want to vote for. But I don't want to not vote, nor spoil my paper. So, I've got 12 hours left to decide, but whichever way I choose, sadly, it will be with some reluctance.

Maybe next time I'll stand myself...(!)

Banners, I firmly agree with what you have said, I do have a Green candidate in the Tynemouth area and they are one of the parties that would stand in the way of the TTIP which would hopefully help our public services not becoming an eBay bidding war for private investors.

Issue I have is I am in one of those safe seats for Labour, it has been Lib Dem and Cons once in the last 20 years but always mainly Labour.

I am still undecided, do I vote with the Greens who have a lot of good policies but some I don't agree with, or do I chuck it at one of the main parties and hope it helps with aiming towards a majority.

Personally I think we will all be back at the polls on November, rinse and repeat until either people mass vote to stop the polls or turn out is so low it barely matters. At present with way the system works, you could have the likes of Greens with 5% of the vote and get a seat, then other parties with 5% overall vote but numerous seats (especially in the case of SNP etc) hopefully the system will be reformed.

[Professor Bear]

Sitting on your arse saying things should be different has not changed anything ever.  "They're all the same and voting just encourages them" is a great Billy Connolly joke for 1982, but not an actual plan for 2015.

[CrazyFoxMachine]

If a person wants to discriminate against certain people in their personal lives then that's up to them; but that person has no right whatsoever to expect the rest of society to condone or agree.

Right - let me see if I've got this bang to rights - your right (if I'm right) is to write what you think is right in terms of rights. But that us (if this is right) may also rightly write what we think is right such as: in the right light it might look slightly fighty to imply that gay rights aren't rightly as importantly as "human rights".

Which is bollocks. Frankly. IMO obvs m8.

[JayzusB.Christ]

Sitting on your arse saying things should be different has not changed anything ever.  "They're all the same and voting just encourages them" is a great Billy Connolly joke for 1982, but not an actual plan for 2015.

Well, quite - to quote Noam Chomsky (a self-professed anarchist):  'People live and suffer and endure in this word, not in some world we imagine; and all the means available should be used to safeguard and benefit them, even if the long-term goal is to displace these devices and construct preferable alternatives.'

Gay people should have equal rights in my country, but in the current framework they don't.  I'm voting because as it stands, they have fewer benefits than others, financially and otherwise.

In the same way, political prisoners and repressed minorities abroad should have equal rights and freedoms to other people, and in an ideal world they would.  But as it stands they are imprisoned and repressed, and thus there is a need to act in their interests even if it is only through lobbying and donating (and before you ask, yes, but not nearly as much as I know I ought to do).

[Tiplodocus]

If a person wants to discriminate against certain people in their personal lives then that's up to them; but that person has no right whatsoever to expect the rest of society to condone or agree.

Right - let me see if I've got this bang to rights - your right (if I'm right) is to write what you think is right in terms of rights. But that us (if this is right) may also rightly write what we think is right such as: in the right light it might look slightly fighty to imply that gay rights aren't rightly as importantly as "human rights".

Which is bollocks. Frankly. IMO obvs m8.

I just assumed that Sharky's Human Rights include the right to do whatever type of consensual sex you want without fear of discrimination.  So his gay rights (and every other type of right) are built into his right for all humans to be treated the same and just as important.  But this was just my reading of what it - and may also be bollocks.

[IndigoPrime]

I am still undecided, do I vote with the Greens who have a lot of good policies but some I don't agree with, or do I chuck it at one of the main parties and hope it helps with aiming towards a majority.

Depends how safe the seat is. If it's knife-edge, I'd go Labour; if it's unlikely to swing towards Conservative, go Green if you think the party largely aligns with your own beliefs. (Having read the manifestos, I'd say the Green one has some issues but was broadly impressive. Labour's was comparatively meek and disappointing, but I'd sooner have Miliband in #10 than Cameron.)

What the voter is doing is begging the people who believe themselves to be the final arbiters of which rights we can and cannot have for more.

It's collective decision-making, but said decisions are made purely by those who vote.

[Leigh S]

So whatever happens tomorrow I hope that nationally there is a re-think of how the system actually engages individuals in the street who are, y'know, meant to be the people being represented.

I strongly suspect that this may be the last general election we see under first past the post — whatever government we end up with, it's going to bear so little resemblance to how people have actually voted that the current system may have to be written off as unsustainable.

Cheers

Jim

I'd agree except that the only people who could pull it down are the people who directly benefit from not doing so - if we arent going to take to the streets over something like the Bedroom Tax, and are sleep walking into mass privatisation of just about everything including the previously sacrosanct NHS, what hope of a big enough popular protest on what to a lot of voters is a side issue? It's not to me, but we had a coalition with a party whose principle appeal was PR - how did that go and how much closer are we to it after they have "been sharing in the power"? *stifles snigger*