The Political Thread

[Trent]

Not sure how that works Jim. Like it or in your case obviously not, the result stands. The one positive is that the cynical Leave frontsmen have gone as I would hate to think of any of them profitting from their duplicity.
In truth we need level heads now and every Remain voter who throws their toys out of the pram just lets others fill the void.

[The Legendary Shark]

Well said, CF.

[IndigoPrime]

I wanted out of the EU for Democracy and for the basic fact that it was built on a lie. All you have to do is look at the way that Democracy is not encouraged across the continent.

Really? That's quite the claim, given that the EU in itself has been largely responsible for promoting democracy across Europe, to the point dictatorship governments have been replaced by actual democracies.

I watched people on here fall into the sad camp of saying that all who voted out are racists, which baffled me

I don't recall incidents of that here, although I may have missed some. I saw people saying that those voting out were siding with racists whether they were racist themselves or not. The common suggestion was that Leave voters weren't all racists, but pretty much all racists would vote Leave. Given the regular, constant shit I get on Twitter even now from Leave voters, there's definitely a nasty streak throughout. (As I've noted, I have not had a single conversation online with a Leave voter outside of this forum that hasn't ended up in a threat, insult or some kind of patronising "the left will now prevail" bollocks.)

As for the economy, I knew it would take a hit straight afterwards (if you didn't believe that then that's your fault) but the doom and gloom scenario did not really happen.

Well, UK businesses are being hammered left and right, Sterling has been weakened, projects in science, education and entertainment are being cancelled all over the place, and we still haven't left yet. What we've seen so far is the response to the referendum, not leaving the EU. When Article 50 is triggered, that's when the fun begins, with economists (most of which got the hit to Sterling about right) predicting a further fall into the $1.10–$1.20 bracket, and for the FTSE 250 to take another hammering.

Now I could tell you what two of my Eastern European friends at work have said to me but that wouldn't fit into what many believe on here.

Let's home they feel the same when May's in command of the Tories and threatening their very right to stay in the UK.

Likewise, I regret the result but the vote took place and now we have to embrace the new reality

We really don't. I find it bizarre how many Leave people trumpet democracy and yet fail to understand that people will continue to fight for what they believe in. THAT is democracy in action. And that's especially so when the gulf between the results was small, the referendum in question wasn't even legally binding, polls show those already wavering could swing the result the other way, and the UK is getting a kicking from everywhere.

I will say some damage is done. The UK's reputation is now in the toilet as far as being an open an tolerant society goes. Outside of the UK bubble, we are a laughing stock with everyone but the far right (our biggest fan now being Le Pen). This will regardless of what happens next take a decade or more to rebuild. (And if we do Brexit fully, the next decade will be economic hell, figuring out trade deals, given that we don't have the skills nor the numbers to do this at any speed whatsoever.)

The worry is that by doing so we let the politicos blame everything on Brexit for the next 10 years and they don't make the best fist of where we now are.

I suspect that's going to happen anyway, although the Conservatives will blame it on Labour, somehow.

Like it or in your case obviously not, the result stands.

Only it doesn't necessarily. Only a reckless political set would push things through. The logical step, as outlined by Clegg, would be to figure out a way forward, and set that to mandate in a GE, or assign conditions to Brexit, in the way the UK did regarding adoption of the Euro.

The one positive is that the cynical Leave frontsmen have gone as I would hate to think of any of them profitting from their duplicity.

"Hey, we smashed up the country! BYEEE!" Yeah, great. Farage is truly astonishing today. He wants his life back, which for two years will involve getting his MEP salary, while slagging off the people we'll need to negotiate with. And naturally now whenever he's asked anything about Brexit, his response will be that it's no longer for him to comment on, because it's no longer his responsibility. (JHB on Twitter was equally mad in this area, saying that it's up to govt to fulfil Leave promises. Clearly, they should have promised everyone a fucking unicorn too.)

[Professor Bear]

Tony Blair gave a press conference saying he was really sorry about Iraq, but Chilcott doesn't know what it's like to be prime minister and Tony did nothing wrong.
Corbyn tried to apologise in the Commons for the war but was heckled by the MPs who tried to oust him, so he apologised in a press conference later.  The MPs who tried to oust him are on Twitter right now telling us how they're going to fix this once they have their party back because the people are behind them on this.
David Cameron refuses to apologise for anything.  Not even the pig thing.

MPs are also currently patting themselves on the back for voting not to kick wives, mothers, husbands and fathers out of the country just because they were born elsewhere, rather than reassuring us all that this was a close scrape and we shouldn't even have had to have a fucking vote on the matter in the first place.

[IndigoPrime]

Burnham was on Twitter earlier, crowing about the vote. I see he neglected to mention it is entirely non-binding and therefore means fuck all. EEA nationals remain in legal limbo. (I would hope even Theresa May isn't dumb enough to try and deport millions of people, but who knows these days? More likely she'll U-turn on this but use that position as an excuse to clamp down elsewhere.)

[Jim_Campbell]

I'm presuming Theresa Von May will be happy to take back the ~2million UK citizens who we'd get back if we repatriated the EU citizens residents here? Swapping about 1.8M working people for 2.2M largely retired ones, many of whom don't have homes here. The NHS is prepared for a sudden shift in the population's demographic, right? We've got homes to spare for all those ex-pats (don't call them migrants) of course?

[JayzusB.Christ]

Likewise, I regret the result but the vote took place and now we have to embrace the new reality

We really don't. I find it bizarre how many Leave people trumpet democracy and yet fail to understand that people will continue to fight for what they believe in. THAT is democracy in action. And that's especially so when the gulf between the results was small, the referendum in question wasn't even legally binding, polls show those already wavering could swing the result the other way, and the UK is getting a kicking from everywhere.

It's a tough one - I remember the Marriage Equality referendum here in Ireland last year; where I completely dismissed the idea of a petition for a second referendum - partly because the Yes side won by a fairly large margin, but mainly because I found the No campaign to be comprised largely of thinly-disguised bigotry.

However, the Nice Treaty referendum was voted against the first time here, before being thrown back at us again - but there was a little more information included the second time around and it was voted for the second time around.

So while I completely understand the hardline Leave campaigners being infuriated by the thought of a second referendum, it may not be a terrible idea now that more information has come to light.

[James Dilworth]

The UK's just going to become mini Russia isn't it?

Mafia politicians, escalating crime, hilarious dash-cam footage.

[IndigoPrime]

More like Dubai, if the Tories get their way.

[Definitely Not Mister Pops]

Likewise, I regret the result but the vote took place and now we have to embrace the new reality

We really don't. I find it bizarre how many Leave people trumpet democracy and yet fail to understand that people will continue to fight for what they believe in. THAT is democracy in action. And that's especially so when the gulf between the results was small, the referendum in question wasn't even legally binding, polls show those already wavering could swing the result the other way, and the UK is getting a kicking from everywhere.

I live in Northern Ireland and I don't see why we should accept the result at all. We voted to stay, same goes for Scotland, but we're being dragged out of the EU by the Welsh and English regardless. At least Scotland has Nicola Sturgeon sticking up for them, that lady has balls. Arlene Foster on the other hand IS balls, her and her fucking DUPing cronies. They'll ignore the English and Welsh take on things like marriage equality, undemocratically abusing the petition of concern to block it, but are more than happy to go along with this, because it fits with their ideals. The UnDUP will probably try to block the inevitable border poll too. I find it hilarious that Paisley Jr. has applied for an Irish Passport. Big Ian's spinning in his grave, no doubt causing tectonic anomalies.

[HdE]

Likewise, I regret the result but the vote took place and now we have to embrace the new reality

We really don't. I find it bizarre how many Leave people trumpet democracy and yet fail to understand that people will continue to fight for what they believe in. THAT is democracy in action. And that's especially so when the gulf between the results was small, the referendum in question wasn't even legally binding, polls show those already wavering could swing the result the other way, and the UK is getting a kicking from everywhere.

Indigo, you just addressed one of the most baffling puzzles I've been seeing on social media of late.

I've gone on record as saying that, despite usually having next to no genuine interest in politics, leaving the EU feels like a HUGE mistake to me. The signs of the damage being done in the wake of the leave vote are the evidence I point to when called on to defend that position. I've seen with my own two eyes how the vote has emboldened those with racist tendencies in my locality. And the economic repercussions are likely to have a dramatic impact on me personally. For these reasons (amongst others) I didn't want the UK to leave the EU.

Democracy supposedly empowers the people. It should therefore also empower them to say 'wait - we think we made a mistake, and if the system we have allows us to acknowledge that and maybe undo it, we'd like to have another think about it.'

I think this is a reasonable point of view. It DOES NOT disrespect democracy, because it doesn't seek to deny anyone who genuinely believes that leaving the EU is the right decision their voice.

Being told, as I was by one dickhead on Facebook, to 'grow the f*ck up and deal with it' is NOT reasonable. That denies somebody the right to an opinion. I personally view THAT as an anti-democratic attitude.

But the problem there is that getting bogged down in how folks voted already is kind of missing the point. Discussion now needs to focus on the here and now, and what happens next - which includes legitimately questioning the referendum vote, as I see it. 

Folks who voted leave, whether the regret their vote or not - and plenty do - are still my friends. Folks who voted leave and are telling folks who wanted to remain that they should shut up, or label them unpleasantly for standing by their convictions, are not.

[Banners]

The Chilcot Report seems to say the country was wrong to enact a massive decision based on false information. Isn't that what has happened with Brexit? This time, let's save all the unnecessary heartache (and the money on an enquiry in 20 years time) and just reverse this massive decision now.

[Old Tankie]

If a second referendum gives a different result, surely the next step would be to have the best of three!

[ZenArcade]

Surley the best decision would be to have a higher threshold for decisions of this sort of magnitude. Say 60% in order to leave? Z

[Goaty]

Just realise; in October, Theresa May could be Prime Minister of UK. In November, Hillary Clinton could be President of USA. So it bye bye to Mankind, it is WoMankind! Girl Power