My God's bigger than your God!

[Richmond Clements]

can an atheist be 'spiritual'?

This has pretty much been the centerpiece question of my life these past few years, it is something I have been struggling with quite a bit.
Short answer - yes they can.

[Definitely Not Mister Pops]

The scary thing is there are quite a few elected politicians in Northern Ireland who would go along whole heartedly with this old testament guff

Yup, all members of a group that calls themselves the Caleb Foundation. They believe the Bible tells the literal truth and that all of society should adhere to their interpretation of the scriptures, regardless of differing individual beliefs.

So they've rightly been nick-named the Caliban

[TordelBack]

can an atheist be 'spiritual'?

...
Short answer - yes they can.

Agreed. 

I'd echo your experiences with peace and connection there Jayzus.  I like to get a sea swim in as early as possible after dawn, when the opportunity presents itself, so that I can watch the sun rise as I bob about in  the waves, and I always find it to be a deeply spiritual experience - in the sense that it seems to feed my inner self something it craves.

[TordelBack]

(cont. after the edit button cut me off):

Beyond the glories of the 'natural' world, I'm also very fond of manmade 'holy' places, in the broadest sense, even though I accept nothing supernatural behind them.  One of the most remarkable things I've ever seen was just above the Aesclepion on Kos, a temple of the Olympian god of healing, and the supposed base of operations of Hippocrates himself.  In the woods just above and to one side of the highest terrace of what is a very beautiful open-air sanctuary was a little clearing where modern 'pilgrims' had built what were clearly little offertory towers of stones, dozens upon dozens of them, echoing the ascending terraces of healing of the Aescelpion itself.  My father was critically ill at time (he eventually recovered) and under the circumstances I had been deeply conflicted about going on the holiday in question and had not been enjoying it one bit, and while my non-beliefs wouldn't permit me to join in and build my own little aspirational offering, I found the whole place, and its profound atmosphere, very moving and indeed consoling.  I feel the same about holy wells and fairy trees and megalithic tombs and all that accreted jazz.  There's a lot to be said for the balm of connection to other unknown humans through millennia-deep wells of tradition. 

[Mudcrab]

Here's a  tangent - can an atheist be 'spiritual'?  As a practiser of meditation (albeit not a hugely accomplished one) I like to think so; there is an indescribable feeling of peace and connection to nature that comes with ignoring thoughts for a while.   Is that spirituality?

I'd say so. Can't remember what it was, film or something, where someone asked the difference between religion and spirituality. The reply was that the spiritual man is looking for understanding, the religous one is looking for a reward. I liked that. It's possibly a bit rhetorical (if that's not abusing the word) though, as I suppose there's nothing to say that a follower of any particular religion isn't looking for understanding, or that a spiritual person isn't looking for the reward of understanding. I imagine it's the afterlife/heaven aspect it was getting at though, rather than drifting peacefully back to wherever it came from, if that's not just a different view of the same thing. Buddhism as I see it (in my limited understanding of it) seems to be more spiritual than religous, in that it doesn't have a "God" concept as such.

I find the selective interpretation thing quite funny too. In a BBC "thread" on the subject of gay marriage the usual suspects proclaimed that it was made clear that the whole thing was wrong, but then as someone pointed, it was ok to have several wives and if they weren't a virgin, take them back to their father's house and stone them to death 

[Mudcrab]

(cont. after the edit button cut me off):

Beyond the glories of the 'natural' world, I'm also very fond of manmade 'holy' places, in the broadest sense, even though I accept nothing supernatural behind them.  One of the most remarkable things I've ever seen was just above the Aesclepion on Kos, a temple of the Olympian god of healing, and the supposed base of operations of Hippocrates himself.  In the woods just above and to one side of the highest terrace of what is a very beautiful open-air sanctuary was a little clearing where modern 'pilgrims' had built what were clearly little offertory towers of stones, dozens upon dozens of them, echoing the ascending terraces of healing of the Aescelpion itself.  My father was critically ill at time (he eventually recovered) and under the circumstances I had been deeply conflicted about going on the holiday in question and had not been enjoying it one bit, and while my non-beliefs wouldn't permit me to join in and build my own little aspirational offering, I found the whole place, and its profound atmosphere, very moving and indeed consoling.  I feel the same about holy wells and fairy trees and megalithic tombs and all that accreted jazz.  There's a lot to be said for the balm of connection to other unknown humans through millennia-deep wells of tradition.

One place I've felt a strong sense or feeling like that was Rock Close I think it's called, beside Blarney Castle. Huge Celtic vibe with the old druid altars and stupendously old trees. Loved that place. You always hear about the kissing the stone thing and all that, which is like any old castle, but the place beside it is amazing. Getting into it through the really small tunnel helped with the hidden magical feel too.

[NapalmKev]

I became an atheist many years ago after many unsuccessful attempts by my teachers to convert me-

"you must pray!"
Me-"why?"
"because I told you to!"

And people used to say I was the one with the chip on my shoulder.

As regards to spirituality, I too can appreciate the true wonder of something like 'a sunrise', or the raw beauty of say, an iceberg but a quite a few man made constructions leave me a bit empty for want of a better phrase. The Pyramids and other old world architecture are truly amazing, but I find it hard to see anything pleasing in modern day buildings.

[exilewood]

Nice one Beaky.

I like that "Abortion is unacceptable (and) cold blooded murder...(because) EACH & EVERY LIFE is valuable & priceless"

yet we should

"Bunker-bust those Mullas back to the stoneage"

Nice.

[klute]

I'm a very imperfect Christian who loves 2000AD. Here's my take:

1. I'm a committed secularist-faith and state should not co-habit. It poisons everything. Faith or the lack of it is personal. Keep it that way.
2. Christians should distinguish themselves by service not the pursuit of power whether that be political, economic etc
3. Christians should not want to bomb Iran.
4. Christians should be the least prejudiced people not the most prejudiced.
5. Christians need not set their brains on the shelf-science is good and needs embraced.
6. Jesus was a cool dude. Religion often warps him and his message.
7. Christians are not all ring wing fanatics-some are seditious left wing types (this one is a socialist).
8. God and nationalism are a particularly poisonous mix.
9. A faith questioned is a healthy faith. I question mine constantly from every conceivable angle and often doubt it. I don't get upset when others do the same or raise relevant issues and questions.
10. I know all about ugly passages in the OT,the Jehovah v Jesus thing and the what about tsunamis question.
11.The analogies with other pagan deities is, I believe, over-cooked.
12. I love 2000AD and am looking forward to Brass sun.

Cheers guys (tempted to say God bless).

I wasn't going to do this, tried hard not to, but as this is absolutely, definitely, wholeheartedly, unquestionably, and emphatically my last post on this forum (as Dredd is now out, I thought it would be... just when I thought I was out, y'all pulled me back in!), I'll respond to Prodigal's above post because, quite frankly, he's the only one here that seems reasonable and sensible, the rest is pretty much typical boilerplate guff, and Lee, I would be VERY careful about what you say next here or anywhere else, "God is not mocked, what a man sows, so will he reap"... I feel genuinely sad that you have such a blinded and ignorant outlook towards the Almighty, that you respond to such love with such hate, I don't know what happened to you to make you this way, but I'll pray for you.

Prodigal dude, ever the voice of moderation here, I completely agree with you about the separation of church and state - Ireland's sad history is proof of what happens when the two are entwined, 'nuff said - but not the separation of faith and politics; my faith dictates my political views, the two are inseparable, as Gandhi once quipped "those who want a separation of politics and religion have no idea what religion's really about". 

And Christians do not WANT to bomb Iran any more than Jews do, but would you rather them have a functioning nuclear warhead(s) aimed at Tel Aviv, get real dude, that whole appeasement thing didn't work in 1939, didn't work here in Norn Iron in either 1921 nor 1974, and won't work now, if Iran won't disarm then they should be disarmed by force and the sooner Bibi gives the greenlight to bunker-buster the mullahs back to the stone age, the better off the world will be and you'll thank him for it later (like the Israeli strikes against Iraq in 1981 and Syria in 2007), you know you will.

In my experience, Christians ARE the least prejudiced, but I see you gave no specific examples, so I will; if you're talking about homosexuality, that's not prejudice, that's morality dude, the Bible clearly and unambiguously condemns it, and I'll go with God's opinion rather than humankind, who seem to change their definition of morality with the tide.  If you mean the importance of marriage (one man for one woman) and the family, I think we see the effects of the systematic breakdown of that model on society today.  And if you're talking about abortion, I firmly believe that EACH AND EVERY life is valuable and priceless, and should be given a chance to fulfill their potential, abortion is unacceptable in ALL CIRCUMSTANCES, and is nothing short of cold-blooded murder, which should be met with every single doctor who performs such procedures, past and present, immediately being stripped of their medical licenses... period.

And last but by no means least, science and the Bible can easily co-exist, many of science's pioneers were Godly men, as are many today - it's just the wingnut fruitcakes that get the attention in the media - and the Bible has been proven remarkably scientifically accurate, in fact, much of scientific knowledge we now take for granted was discovered by Godly men of science who got their breakthroughs by reading the Bible, too many instances to list but do your own research.

Well, that REALLY is it for me, guess I'm going out with a bang here, that's fine, standing publicly for my Lord and Savior is as good a subject to go out on as anything I can think of, it's been fun gentlemen, thank you all, goodnight and (if you won't say it, I will) God bless... and to Him be the glory, dominion, honor, and praise, Amen.

In my experience, Christians ARE the least prejudiced, but I see you gave no specific examples, so I will; if you're talking about homosexuality, that's not prejudice, that's morality dude, the Bible clearly and unambiguously condemns it, and I'll go with God's opinion rather than humankind, who seem to change their definition of morality with the tide

What an ugly bitter and twisted person you are.thankfully people like you end up with no friends.Assuming you do have friends (Which i doubt)


Where's the morality in hate????

[klute]

Nice one Beaky.

I like that "Abortion is unacceptable (and) cold blooded murder...(because) EACH & EVERY LIFE is valuable & priceless"

yet we should

"Bunker-bust those Mullas back to the stoneage"

Nice.

LOL! Can i add that  "Abortion is unacceptable (and) cold blooded murder...(because) EACH & EVERY LIFE is valuable & priceless" Unless your homosexual as they are to be condemned for being morally bad people.

Out to the streets for some good old stoning...........

[Richmond Clements]

Nice one Beaky.

I like that "Abortion is unacceptable (and) cold blooded murder...(because) EACH & EVERY LIFE is valuable & priceless"

yet we should

"Bunker-bust those Mullas back to the stoneage"

Nice.

LOL! Can i add that  "Abortion is unacceptable (and) cold blooded murder...(because) EACH & EVERY LIFE is valuable & priceless" Unless your homosexual as they are to be condemned for being morally bad people.

Out to the streets for some good old stoning...........

And you can't even say "ignore him and he'll go away", because he keeps coming back after leaving forever again and again...

[The Prodigal]

What others regard as self evident others regard as less closed.

But that's just the thing, The Prodigal - the complexity of a starting position of belief in an omnipotent creator figure or pantheon (of whatever stripe) is much more daunting than one where you start by assuming no such wondrously elaborate thing exists.  If you start with the simpler assumption of no gods, it's very hard (I'd go so far as to say impossible) to derive the former - 'self-evident' it really isn't.  Of course it's equally hard (impossible) to be conclusive in excluding the existence of deities - but at least your argument/world view doesn't start from a deeply complex, worryingly convenient, premise.

Incidentally, I'd never equate faith with a lack of intelligence, I think the evidence of history would be substantially against me there.  It also seems quite possible to separate out the rational and the religious spheres of your life and let them run their own courses.  Look for example at the NOMa position of one of my all-time favourite human beings, the late Stephen Jay Gould. 

I just genuinely, personally, don't understand how faith can be proposed on a rational basis.  It defies rationality to assert a complex premise as 'true' and derive all other arguments from it.

Thank God for comics eh?

Amen, brother.

Tordel having read your post again I am not sure how to go about addressing it in a way that doesn't end up in a labyrinth of arguments. Suffice to say that I cannot sign up for the premise of what you say though I applaud both your obvious keen intelligence and the worthy points you make. That sounds condescending-its genuinely not meant to be. I enjoy reading posts like yours though in my case it might mean walking in front of a bus tomorrow as I reflect on it further.

[The Prodigal]

On the point can an atheist be spiritual? Yes. Most definitely.

[Daveycandlish]

EACH & EVERY LIFE is valuable & priceless

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUspLVStPbk

[klute]

can an atheist be 'spiritual'?

This has pretty much been the centerpiece question of my life these past few years, it is something I have been struggling with quite a bit.
Short answer - yes they can.

I believe so   i spent my teens and early 20's as an agnostic with a touch of atheism whilst still being spiritual.
I've never felt that you had to believe in any type of higher source real or otherwise to be spiritual the same as i don't believe you have to believe in a god/religion or read a bible to treat your fellow man/woman with love and respect.

I'd echo your experiences with peace and connection there Jayzus.  I like to get a sea swim in as early as possible after dawn, when the opportunity presents itself, so that I can watch the sun rise as I bob about in  the waves, and I always find it to be a deeply spiritual experience - in the sense that it seems to feed my inner self something it craves.

This pretty much somes it up for me i've been a buddhist 9 years now and the above has been a focus in my life aswell as family but turning to buddhism didn't make me focus on it,as it was already there. really there's nothing more magical that  a sunrise or sunset or spring,autumn,summer,winter..crashing waves.It's boundless

It's all there in front of us magic plain and simple you don't believe in any deity to look at the world and think to yourself WOW in all the universe were one of the lucky ones.
Why? does it matter? Not really we all die in the end regardless of any god so i'm going to enjoy my life till the end regardless of why are we here's and the what if there is a god/s
Simply i don't care i look at magic each day some call it science some call it evolution and some call it a miracle.