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Author Topic: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.  (Read 72631 times)

Leigh S

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Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
« Reply #1455 on: 30 March, 2021, 08:49:07 AM »
Well, yes Colin, all reasonable arguments... but thinking like that doesn#t allow us to not be inconvenienced by havng to moderate our own behaviour.  As ever Sharky, your altruism always seems to circle back to "let me do what I want".  It's not really those pregnant/elderly/children/vulnerable people you care about - it's someone telling you what to do.

If it really WAS money that was behind all this, you think shutting down the entire economy is a good way for those evil scientists and politicians (of all political stripes) to achieve that?

And the Politicians who did lean your way, with their herd immunity arguments, did they protect more people or less? (answer: less, by some degree)  And they did it against the advice of those scientists you profess to believe in.  It seemss that curiously it's only the ones whose conclusions are the least impactful on yourself that you think should be believed.

Simultaneously, in Post Government SharkWorld, we have learnt that everybody will spontaneously make the right choices for their communities and not be selfish at all and just look after each other.  I assume if the vaccine had been developed by the local GP (sll local GPs would ahve been tasked with developing their own vaccine), and no one was putting any pressure on you to take it, you'd be first in the queue.

But yeah,this is only the real world, so fuck old people, they can fend for themselves - if they catch it, it is their fault for leaving their house. Heck most of them arent even really dead, it's just Statistics, man, making it look like they are.

My solution based on this science - protect the old and infirm, otherwise carry on as normal.

An arguement that loses all credibility as the way to protect the old and infirm is to restrict the spread of the disease in its entirety which means restrictions for all.

Well unless you propose clearing say the Isle of White - can identify and dump all the 'old and infirm' there - if the odd one or two die on the way who cares they'd have been dead in a year or two anyway - just look at the stats not then actual humans involved - and then we have the rest of the country to do as we please with - PARTY!!!!

Heck we can use the Isle of Man as a place to stash others with illness that makes them more vulnerable to Covid - though they might get upperity about their sovereignty so we might be best using Anglesey instead?

Mikey

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Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
« Reply #1456 on: 30 March, 2021, 08:56:06 AM »
"WHAT ALL THE SCIENTISTS AGREE ON" was hyperbolic shorthand for scientific consensus.

At this point, though, I just have to trust the majority of people reading here won't be taken in by any (more) anti-vax rhetoric.

I admire your persistence here Funt, but in my experience it's a waste of pixels. You'll only be accused of appeal to authority, to those wealthy and influential scientists, many of whom are technicians doing the actual practical lab work during this pandemic.They don't make as much as field staff gathering evidence for climate change, but it's still in the millions I imagine.

If only they'd supply the vaccines at cost.
To tell the truth, you can all get screwed.

IndigoPrime

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Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
« Reply #1457 on: 30 March, 2021, 09:51:25 AM »
Having read that last Shark post, I’m almost speechless. Then again, there is that weird place in the political spectrum where you realise the vast gulf between liberal and libertarian thinking. The notion of “protect the old and infirm, otherwise carry on as normal” is scientifically incoherent and astonishingly callous. Carry on as normal while, what, COVID blazes through the entire population, leaving hospitals overwhelmed, many thousands more dead, and probably six or seven million people with long COVID and a good chunk of them with permanent health problems? Right. And given that the virus would mutate at speed, the old and infirm wouldn’t be protected anyway, unless fully separated and sealed off from the world, which doesn’t seem like any way to life. I don’t even.

Mister Pops

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Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
« Reply #1458 on: 30 March, 2021, 10:08:23 AM »
Sure those old and infirm people would be dead in ten years anyway. Who among us would even be bothered to keep on living if we found out we only had a decade left?
You may quote me on that.

Jim_Campbell

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Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
« Reply #1459 on: 30 March, 2021, 10:12:16 AM »
Sure those old and infirm people would be dead in ten years anyway. Who among us would even be bothered to keep on living if we found out we only had a decade left?

My favourite response to this absolutely terrible attitude to covid was: "If you exclude people with pre-existing conditions, Harold Shipman didn't kill anyone."
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The Legendary Shark

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Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
« Reply #1460 on: 30 March, 2021, 10:30:04 AM »

Wow.

The statistics - from trained scientists (or nutters, in your (the "royal" you) view) - point to a much greater vulnerability for the old and infirm, so that makes me heartless? The only solution is to lock everyone down, destroy countless small businesses (thus concentrating consumers more and more towards big businesses), spread fear and misinformation, force everyone to take an experimental mRNA vaccine whose safety precautions have been replaced with the much more scientific political Warp Speed, and all that?

All the money that's been spent or lost, all the people acting to ease the situation (or profit from it), all those resources - in my view they'd be better employed protecting the most vulnerable. (Which, apparently, can only be done by herding people (presumably in cattle trucks) to an island somewhere to die out of sight of the rest of us.) Why not put a soldier, constable or volunteer on the door of every care home to uphold quarantine practices? I bet even such an unwieldy plan would be cheaper than devastating the economy. But no, send them off to die because they're old and useless - that's all you can come up with?

As I said at the start of all this, COVID certainly isn't nothing and poses a very real danger to some sections of society, but it does not pose the same level of danger to everyone.
Sorry, but the politics bears little relation to the science.

Anyway, look on the bright side - the dose I refused will be available to save the life of someone more worthy. If they live and I die then that's a fair swap, even I can see that. But I'm not going to risk my already questionable health on the word of Boris Johnson and his hand-picked experts.

~~~^~~~~~~~


Rest in peace, Dave.

Mister Pops

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Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
« Reply #1461 on: 30 March, 2021, 10:44:31 AM »
Are you referring to a different Boris Johnson? You can't think anyone here trusts the prime minister Boris Johnson, and are basing their views on his, so you must be talking about a different Boris Johnson I haven't heard about.
You may quote me on that.

IndigoPrime

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Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
« Reply #1462 on: 30 March, 2021, 10:45:56 AM »
The statistics - from trained scientists (or nutters, in your (the "royal" you) view) - point to a much greater vulnerability for the old and infirm, so that makes me heartless?
They are at greater risk of death, yes. But everyone else’s risk goes up as well if the health services are overwhelmed (which is what would happen if you went full herd immunity and only protected the “old and infirm”). This disease is not picky. It will go for a wide range of people. It will leave one in ten with long-term health problems and a significant number effectively disabled. I know plenty of people who pre-COVID were fit and health. Now? Not so much.

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The only solution is to lock everyone down, destroy countless small businesses (thus concentrating consumers more and more towards big businesses), spread fear and misinformation, force everyone to take an experimental mRNA vaccine whose safety precautions have been replaced with the much more scientific political Warp Speed, and all that?
No. This is just bullshit. This is the kind of rot you’d see from full-on anti-vaxx. In fact, this is quite literal misinformation. The vaccine is not experimental. In fact, it’s not one vaccine—we have several solutions to a disease problem, approaching it in different ways. This is science in fast forward, sure, but only because resources were thrown at it in a manner unseen in modern history. That doesn’t mean a few boffins in a lab fucked around for a bit and said “that’ll do”. So much effort went into this, precisely because of the clear and imminent danger to the entire planet.

Arguably, this is what should happen elsewhere. I suspect a lot of eyes have been woken up to “well, why haven’t we dealt with X or Y better then?” Flu is an excellent example in the west. But to suggest this is some half-arsed thing just thrown out there without regard for safety is just outright wrong.

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protecting the most vulnerable
OK, then: how? You’ve responded to this point a few times in a snarky manner. So how do you “protect the vulnerable” in your world where we immediately open everything back up and, presumably, radically reduce the number of people having the vaccine?

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But no, send them off to die because they're old and useless - that's all you can come up with?
Shark, your plan so far is quite literally radically increasing their risk of death.

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As I said at the start of all this, COVID certainly isn't nothing and poses a very real danger to some sections of society, but it does not pose the same level of danger to everyone.
This, at least, is correct. You are much less likely to die from COVID if you’re 20 than if you’re 40. And you’re less likely to die of it at 40 than 60. And so on. But, again, let it run through the population and, according to even the most optimistic statistics out there, you’re talking 3.5 million Brits with long COVID. Averages are more like 7 million. A significant number of them will have permanent disability, from something that was probably avoidable, if we just have a bit of patience and ensure people are vaccinated.

And THAT is why I described your thinking about this as callous.

Quote
Anyway, look on the bright side - the dose I refused will be available to save the life of someone more worthy. If they live and I die then that's a fair swap, even I can see that.
Only vaccine-based immunity doesn’t work like that. By not taking the vaccine, you become a more likely transmission vector. We need to leave the vaccine nowhere to jump to. We can see from the return of measles what happens when a lot of (in this case, mostly entitled middle-class white people) start thinking they know better than centuries of vaccination science.

Mikey

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Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
« Reply #1463 on: 30 March, 2021, 10:48:34 AM »
Sure those old and infirm people would be dead in ten years anyway.

That's in essence the defence case in the killing of George Floyd from what I understand. He might have died anyway, in the same way the person kneeling on his neck may well have expired while kneeling on George Floyd's neck.
To tell the truth, you can all get screwed.

Barrington Boots

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Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
« Reply #1464 on: 30 March, 2021, 11:03:25 AM »
I try and stay off the heavier debates on this board, but I'm pretty disgusted by some of what I'm reading here.

Only vaccine-based immunity doesn’t work like that. By not taking the vaccine, you become a more likely transmission vector.

This is 100% the case.

You're a dark horse, Boots.

Colin YNWA

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Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
« Reply #1465 on: 30 March, 2021, 11:24:14 AM »
Heavens to murgatroyd this is why I keep away from threads like this the vast majoroity of the time and today I made the error so incensed by a couple of things I read. But I'm here now so...

Legendary Shark the island herding was indeed facetious to underline the fact that the argument that if we just protect the ill and infirm we can all carry on our happy lives lacks the credibility I also mentioned.

Okay so let's set aside the facetious way I suggested as you've taken herding to islands off the table - damn thought I'd sussed it there. So let's see what you suggest the answer to that puzzler is - given that the idea of just keeping out of each others way while the disease runs rampant to suppress it doesn't work for you.

How do you suggest we:

1) Identifiy those who are old and infirm who need protection

2) protect them from a getting infected - how would you isolate them from the rest of the population who are carrying on as normal and thus allowing the disease to spread.

3) How do you propose those vulnerable to the disease in other ways (including the as not yet understood Long Covid as Indigo Prime points out) are identified

4) How do you proposed those who are vulnerable to the disease in other ways (including the as not yet understood Long Covid as Indigo Prime points out) are isolated them from the rest of the population who are carrying on as normal and thus allowing the disease to spread.

Link Prime

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Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
« Reply #1466 on: 30 March, 2021, 11:41:00 AM »
I keep away from threads like this the vast majoroity of the time and today I made the error

Error x 2.

Threads like this and 'The Political Thread' are to my eyes equal parts pointless, tedious and heavy handed cringe on the few occasions I've read them.

Anyway, look on the bright side - the dose I refused will be available to save the life of someone more worthy.

Mark - you seem like a good bloke and I often enjoy reading your posts on the forum.
Previously you've shared details about your underlying health condition with us.
Disregarding all other bullshit, on a personal note, I hope you reconsider your stance on the COVID-19 vaccination.

JayzusB.Christ

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Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
« Reply #1467 on: 30 March, 2021, 12:34:11 PM »
I thought of a few things to say, but I won't.  I'm just going to stay away from this thread for a while.
“Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest”

Molch-R

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Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
« Reply #1468 on: 30 March, 2021, 12:53:03 PM »
This thread is now locked. Despite a warning, individual posters have continued to use this thread to spread misinformation and conspiracy theories during a public health emergency. Further posts and threads will be deleted.