The Political Thread

[JOE SOAP]

And the reason Jesus didn't mention homosexuals is because that behavior was already condemned in the Old Testament, and He was fulfilling the law not rewriting it.

and you know this, how? I don't see the point in setting up an unfalsifiable argument that can't be proven or disproven, it makes for a very weak argument.

[Modern Panther]

When questioned on whether old testament laws should be ignored, Jesus said that they all stand until the end if time and that "not one jot or tittle" should be disregarded.  He didn't say "just pay attention to some of them, especially the ones about queers.  The others were just temporary, to get you on the straight and narrow until you figured the whole morality think out for yourself."

He, in his Devine wisdom and mercy, also mocked those who failed to execute disobedient children, for disregarding the commandments of the lord in favourof their own laws.

[The Prodigal]

When questioned on whether old testament laws should be ignored, Jesus said that they all stand until the end if time and that "not one jot or tittle" should be disregarded.  He didn't say "just pay attention to some of them, especially the ones about queers.  The others were just temporary, to get you on the straight and narrow until you figured the whole morality think out for yourself."

He, in his Devine wisdom and mercy, also mocked those who failed to execute disobedient children, for disregarding the commandments of the lord in favourof their own laws.

http://subversive1.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/not-one-jot-or-tittle.html

Probably articulates the response better than I could.

This has become a theology thread. Soz. I only came on here to get advice about Rogue trooper.

[Roger Godpleton]

You should of asked what colour Rouge Trooper's poops are.

[Modern Panther]

Ssshhhh...if he realises its gone all theological, Emps will split the thread and Roger will FREAKOUT.

Rouge Trooper poops a girly pink.

[Dandontdare]

The Almighty also condemns polyester shirts.
(Leviticus 19:19)
'Nuff said.

That's a totally tired and frankly bunk attack line, those regulations were given by God to the Israelites in the wilderness to keep them on the straight and narrow until the Promised Land and the Messiah, they never applied to us Gentiles and don't even apply to the Jews anymore, nice try though...

How odd, that get-out clause doersn't seem to appear in my bible. And if some rules were temporary, as you say, and don
't apply to gentiles, why are they included in the christain bible and why isn't the one about homosexuality one of those? T

his is what bugs me about Christaians. they'll take one phrase or bit of text and consider it massively important, enough to start wars or oppress whole sections of the population; but happily gloss over or sideline other bits that don't fit their world view. As for America and christianity, my reading of the NT tells me that JC's fundamental message was one of pacifism (turn the other cheek) and anti-capitalism (moneychangers, eye of the needle etc), which are the exact opposite of everything the USA stands for - military might and financial riches.

Bottom line, the bible, old and new, was written by fallible human beings with their own influences and agendas and so to take this collection of texts, written by different people in different lands over centuries, bundle them together in one book, allow the Catholic Church sole rights to copy, edit and translate it for another thousand years or so, and then consider it to be the infallible word of God is patently ridiculous.

I've got no beef with people of faith or spirituality, but have contempt for anyone who blindly follows a 'holy book' without question. Believe what you will, but don't force anyone else to. You think God doesn't want gay people to marry? Fine, don't marry a gay person, but no church has the right to impose that belief on anyone else.

I'm not going to enter in a debate, as I've been rouind these houses too many times in the past and I find that it's impossibleto rationally argue with religious types, especially right wing american ones ( The Holy Trinity of Dickery IMHO) so mr Beaky can now go back into my ignore list while I get on with my life.

[JamesC]

The more religious you are, the less sex you get (unless you're a kiddy fiddler).

No thanks God!

[The Prodigal]

The Almighty also condemns polyester shirts.
(Leviticus 19:19)
'Nuff said.

That's a totally tired and frankly bunk attack line, those regulations were given by God to the Israelites in the wilderness to keep them on the straight and narrow until the Promised Land and the Messiah, they never applied to us Gentiles and don't even apply to the Jews anymore, nice try though...

How odd, that get-out clause doersn't seem to appear in my bible. And if some rules were temporary, as you say, and don
't apply to gentiles, why are they included in the christain bible and why isn't the one about homosexuality one of those? T

his is what bugs me about Christaians. they'll take one phrase or bit of text and consider it massively important, enough to start wars or oppress whole sections of the population; but happily gloss over or sideline other bits that don't fit their world view. As for America and christianity, my reading of the NT tells me that JC's fundamental message was one of pacifism (turn the other cheek) and anti-capitalism (moneychangers, eye of the needle etc), which are the exact opposite of everything the USA stands for - military might and financial riches.

Bottom line, the bible, old and new, was written by fallible human beings with their own influences and agendas and so to take this collection of texts, written by different people in different lands over centuries, bundle them together in one book, allow the Catholic Church sole rights to copy, edit and translate it for another thousand years or so, and then consider it to be the infallible word of God is patently ridiculous.

I've got no beef with people of faith or spirituality, but have contempt for anyone who blindly follows a 'holy book' without question. Believe what you will, but don't force anyone else to. You think God doesn't want gay people to marry? Fine, don't marry a gay person, but no church has the right to impose that belief on anyone else.

I'm not going to enter in a debate, as I've been rouind these houses too many times in the past and I find that it's impossibleto rationally argue with religious types, especially right wing american ones ( The Holy Trinity of Dickery IMHO) so mr Beaky can now go back into my ignore list while I get on with my life.

As a Christian who believes that you should genuinely question everything including the nature of Biblical texts etc I would like to say that I genuinely agree with an awful lot of your post.

I am sorry but I do.

[The Legendary Shark]

Exodus 22:25
If you lend money to any of my people with you who is poor, you shall not be like a moneylender to him, and you shall not exact interest from him.

Ezekiel 18:13
Lends at interest, and takes profit; shall he then live? He shall not live. He has done all these abominations; he shall surely die; his blood shall be upon himself.

Deuteronomy 23:19
You shall not charge interest on loans to your brother, interest on money, interest on food, interest on anything that is lent for interest.

Proverbs 28:8
Whoever multiplies his wealth by interest and profit gathers it for him who is generous to the poor.

Leviticus 25:3-7
Do not take interest or any profit from them, but fear your God, so that they may continue to live among you. 37 You must not lend them money at interest or sell them food at a profit.

Leviticus 25:1-55
The Lord spoke to Moses on Mount Sinai, saying, "Speak to the people of Israel and say to them, When you come into the land that I give you, the land shall keep a Sabbath to the Lord. For six years you shall sow your field, and for six years you shall prune your vineyard and gather in its fruits, but in the seventh year there shall be a Sabbath of solemn rest for the land, a Sabbath to the Lord. You shall not sow your field or prune your vineyard. You shall not reap what grows of itself in your harvest, or gather the grapes of your undressed vine. It shall be a year of solemn rest for the land.

Psalm 15:5
Who does not put out his money at interest and does not take a bribe against the innocent. He who does these things shall never be moved.

Nehemiah 5:1-13
Now there arose a great outcry of the people and of their wives against their Jewish brothers. For there were those who said, "With our sons and our daughters, we are many. So let us get grain, that we may eat and keep alive." There were also those who said, "We are mortgaging our fields, our vineyards, and our houses to get grain because of the famine." And there were those who said, "We have borrowed money for the king's tax on our fields and our vineyards. Now our flesh is as the flesh of our brothers, our children are as their children. Yet we are forcing our sons and our daughters to be slaves, and some of our daughters have already been enslaved, but it is not in our power to help it, for other men have our fields and our vineyards." ...

Psalm 15:1-5
A Psalm of David. O Lord, who shall sojourn in your tent? Who shall dwell on your holy hill? He who walks blamelessly and does what is right and speaks truth in his heart; who does not slander with his tongue and does no evil to his neighbor, nor takes up a reproach against his friend; in whose eyes a vile person is despised, but who honors those who fear the Lord; who swears to his own hurt and does not change; who does not put out his money at interest and does not take a bribe against the innocent. He who does these things shall never be moved.

Nehemiah 5:7
I took counsel with myself, and I brought charges against the nobles and the officials. I said to them, "You are exacting interest, each from his brother." And I held a great assembly against them

Proverbs 22:7
The rich ruleth over the poor, and the borrower is servant to the lender

***

The 'Imrans 3:130
Believers, do not live on usury, doubling your wealth many times over.

The Cow 2:275
Those that live in usury shall rise up before God like men whom Satan has demented by his touch; for they claim that trading is no different from usury.

The Cow 2:280
If your debtor be in straits, grant him a delay until he can discharge his debt; but if you waive the sum as alms it will be better for you, if you but knew it.

***

So, how many devout Christians have credit cards, loans at interest or mortgages? If your religious leaders are so adamant about sticking to Holy Writ, why does not your rich church offer interest-free loans to you and forgive those loans every seven years? Why does not your church crusade against the usurers who are destroying our societies? Why are not congregations all over the land being told that the Bible is against charging interest? If God is so against it, why do we all believe without question that All Debts Must Be Paid and that interest is simply one of those unavoidable things?

Religion, sadly, is nothing more than a tool for social control. Whilst religion can do many great things, it is a poor second cousin to faith. Religion teaches us that we need it in order to reach God, just like government teaches that we need it to run our lives, but the truth (to my mind) is much simpler and far more empowering. If God is everything and everywhere (let's call Him the Universe) then I am God. Well, I'm a little piece of God and so are you and so is everything else. The overwhelming majority of people know the difference between right and wrong on an almost instinctive level - how we choose to act on that knowledge is the free will part. This is where religion can be useful if it teaches people to look inward at this knowledge and develop a personal relationship with 'God'. The Bible and Koran then become not instruction manuals to be adhered to but 'work-books' to help individuals think about what is Right and what is Wrong for themselves.

But religion, like politics, has been hijacked at the highest levels by the usurers. This is why I found it fitting to see the Occupy London protestors camped outside St Paul's.

Thread successfully steered back to politics, I think!

[Mikey]

Well balls to all that!

It's time for a muscial interlude!

I was just listening to Rings Around the World on the weekend for first time in an age. It's still aces.

M.

[The Legendary Shark]

"A Greek economy in depression, austerity that guarantees they'll stay in depression and living on life support from the rest of Europe is the best,"  Kit Juckes, global head of foreign exchange at Societe Generale.

Taken from this CNBC articletrashing Greece. Note how the Greeks themselves are blamed for not paying off their basically unpayable debts - debts upayable because of ever increasing interest. In the article, Nick Dewhirst says that "...a German has to increase working from 65 to 67 and that is to pay for Greeks retiring at 50." This is only partially true.

As more and more money is created out of nothing and lent at interest the amount of debt, which also accrues intrest on itself, inevitably skyrockets. As the money to pay the interest (and the interest on the interest) is not created - where do the repayments come from? They come from Germans having to work longer, Brits having their services cut and Greeks selling their country - all because of usury.

Just as you are at the core of your faith you are also the core of your economy. All wealth comes from you - not from your gold or land but from the work you do or the skills you sell. If all money, then, is based on the work we do - how can we justify being charged to use it?

[The Prodigal]

Exodus 22:25
If you lend money to any of my people with you who is poor, you shall not be like a moneylender to him, and you shall not exact interest from him.

Ezekiel 18:13
Lends at interest, and takes profit; shall he then live? He shall not live. He has done all these abominations; he shall surely die; his blood shall be upon himself.

Deuteronomy 23:19
You shall not charge interest on loans to your brother, interest on money, interest on food, interest on anything that is lent for interest.

Proverbs 28:8
Whoever multiplies his wealth by interest and profit gathers it for him who is generous to the poor.

Leviticus 25:3-7
Do not take interest or any profit from them, but fear your God, so that they may continue to live among you. 37 You must not lend them money at interest or sell them food at a profit.

Leviticus 25:1-55
The Lord spoke to Moses on Mount Sinai, saying, "Speak to the people of Israel and say to them, When you come into the land that I give you, the land shall keep a Sabbath to the Lord. For six years you shall sow your field, and for six years you shall prune your vineyard and gather in its fruits, but in the seventh year there shall be a Sabbath of solemn rest for the land, a Sabbath to the Lord. You shall not sow your field or prune your vineyard. You shall not reap what grows of itself in your harvest, or gather the grapes of your undressed vine. It shall be a year of solemn rest for the land.

Psalm 15:5
Who does not put out his money at interest and does not take a bribe against the innocent. He who does these things shall never be moved.

Nehemiah 5:1-13
Now there arose a great outcry of the people and of their wives against their Jewish brothers. For there were those who said, "With our sons and our daughters, we are many. So let us get grain, that we may eat and keep alive." There were also those who said, "We are mortgaging our fields, our vineyards, and our houses to get grain because of the famine." And there were those who said, "We have borrowed money for the king's tax on our fields and our vineyards. Now our flesh is as the flesh of our brothers, our children are as their children. Yet we are forcing our sons and our daughters to be slaves, and some of our daughters have already been enslaved, but it is not in our power to help it, for other men have our fields and our vineyards." ...

Psalm 15:1-5
A Psalm of David. O Lord, who shall sojourn in your tent? Who shall dwell on your holy hill? He who walks blamelessly and does what is right and speaks truth in his heart; who does not slander with his tongue and does no evil to his neighbor, nor takes up a reproach against his friend; in whose eyes a vile person is despised, but who honors those who fear the Lord; who swears to his own hurt and does not change; who does not put out his money at interest and does not take a bribe against the innocent. He who does these things shall never be moved.

Nehemiah 5:7
I took counsel with myself, and I brought charges against the nobles and the officials. I said to them, "You are exacting interest, each from his brother." And I held a great assembly against them

Proverbs 22:7
The rich ruleth over the poor, and the borrower is servant to the lender

***

The 'Imrans 3:130
Believers, do not live on usury, doubling your wealth many times over.

The Cow 2:275
Those that live in usury shall rise up before God like men whom Satan has demented by his touch; for they claim that trading is no different from usury.

The Cow 2:280
If your debtor be in straits, grant him a delay until he can discharge his debt; but if you waive the sum as alms it will be better for you, if you but knew it.

***

So, how many devout Christians have credit cards, loans at interest or mortgages? If your religious leaders are so adamant about sticking to Holy Writ, why does not your rich church offer interest-free loans to you and forgive those loans every seven years? Why does not your church crusade against the usurers who are destroying our societies? Why are not congregations all over the land being told that the Bible is against charging interest? If God is so against it, why do we all believe without question that All Debts Must Be Paid and that interest is simply one of those unavoidable things?

Religion, sadly, is nothing more than a tool for social control. Whilst religion can do many great things, it is a poor second cousin to faith. Religion teaches us that we need it in order to reach God, just like government teaches that we need it to run our lives, but the truth (to my mind) is much simpler and far more empowering. If God is everything and everywhere (let's call Him the Universe) then I am God. Well, I'm a little piece of God and so are you and so is everything else. The overwhelming majority of people know the difference between right and wrong on an almost instinctive level - how we choose to act on that knowledge is the free will part. This is where religion can be useful if it teaches people to look inward at this knowledge and develop a personal relationship with 'God'. The Bible and Koran then become not instruction manuals to be adhered to but 'work-books' to help individuals think about what is Right and what is Wrong for themselves.

But religion, like politics, has been hijacked at the highest levels by the usurers. This is why I found it fitting to see the Occupy London protestors camped outside St Paul's.

Thread successfully steered back to politics, I think!

Shark it might not command the attention as much as right wing cross and flag merchants but there is a very substantial Christian reaction to well reaction. Even in North america there are counter-currents to the usual right wing malarky. There are an incredible array of left leaning social justice campaigners who derive their impetus from what they regard as plain though oft ignored Biblical imperatives to side with the poor and oppressed.

Wasn't it once said that the origins of the British Labour party owed more to Methodism than Marx?

[TordelBack]

The Prodigal makes a good point, and makes me glad I deleted my angry post from earlier on.  Most of the religious types I know are decent skins and know evil shite when they see it, same as the rest of us god-deniers.  Having just read Stephen Fry's (first) autobiography his analysis of the reasoning behind people's objections to (other's) homosexuality is very fresh in my mind, and I suspect it is these things that lie behind the selective adoption of archaic laws rather than any genuine scriptural or theological analysis, or even 'faith and obedience' itself.

[The Legendary Shark]

I agree. A bad system doesn't automatically make the people within it bad too. The knowledge of right and wrong is within us all and most of us want to do what's right whenever we can. I think that 'do unto others as you would have others do unto you' should be the whole of the Bible.

[Mikey]

Why's everyone being reasonable? This is the fuckin Politics thread!

M.