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Spoilers => Prog => Topic started by: Magnetica on 14 September, 2020, 11:29:12 AM

Title: Prog 2199 - Death Becomes Him!
Post by: Magnetica on 14 September, 2020, 11:29:12 AM
Postie has just been, handing me Prog 2199, the Battle of Britain special, The77 issues 1 and 2, and the Meg 30th anniversary issue.

That should keep me going for a while.

Only read Dredd so far. All I can say is hmmm.
Title: Re: Prog 2199 - Death Becomes Him!
Post by: Goosegash on 14 September, 2020, 12:37:36 PM
Well, at least it didn't all turn out all to be a dream, so that's something I guess.

So Giant [spoiler]shoots DeathDredd with Ichabod's magic story-ending gun and everything's fine.[/spoiler] This just left me confused about what happened with [spoiler]Anderson[/spoiler] though - [spoiler]is she alive? Dead? Some kind of angelic superbeing? After she's gone back in time and set the plot up does she go back to being a Judge like nothing happened?[/spoiler] Hmmm indeed.

The odd thing is this whole story felt like it was building to [spoiler]Giant sacrificing himself to save the day[/spoiler], then when that doesn't happen it makes it all feel a bit meaningless. All you can really say is "Well, that definitely happened."
Title: Re: Prog 2199 - Death Becomes Him!
Post by: Magnetica on 14 September, 2020, 01:35:43 PM
Yes [spoiler]I was a bit confused [/spoiler] about what happened with [spoiler]Anderson[/spoiler] too.

I guess I will need to do a bit of a re-read, but this probably says a lot, I'm not sure I can be bothered.
Title: Re: Prog 2199 - Death Becomes Him!
Post by: Greg M. on 14 September, 2020, 06:04:35 PM
On the plus side, [spoiler]Giant survived[/spoiler]. On the minus side, [spoiler]he was almost unrecognisably whiny and needy throughout - "Dredd, Dredd, remember Necropolis? Remember? We had fun together, didn't we? Please acknowledge me, surrogate daddy!"[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Prog 2199 - Death Becomes Him!
Post by: Colin YNWA on 14 September, 2020, 06:52:31 PM
Well there's ending a plenty and one almighty not ending that might be the best thing in the Prog... well no its not but its close.

Dredd wrapped up at pace, much like the rest of the tale really. We'll see how this one gets reflected on over time but its been hit and mess for me. I would say it ends well. Neatly tided away. Anderson had it [spoiler]covered all along[/spoiler].

Diaboliks the [spoiler]house[/spoiler] is a big hungry angel eatting beastie so we're all good. Emjoyed this one. Interesting they seem to be building a squad type thing going on.

The Out has been a delight and ends by introducing a fantastic new character. One whose insight into Cyd is hilarious. We move on from the revelations of the last few weeks and end with a different revelation and a glorious panarama reminding us of the scope of possiblity here. Brilliant

3rillers Saphir solid end to a solid short story.

Sinister Dexter - wait what -WOW the story ratchets up and super exciting great to see this burst into life and very excited to see where we get taken next week.

So while 2198 was a down turn I've been impressed with the conclusions here and they way things are set up for more where needed. Good prog.
Title: Re: Prog 2199 - Death Becomes Him!
Post by: Bolt-01 on 14 September, 2020, 07:54:07 PM
Rather nifty little name drop in the Diaboliks, too.
Title: Re: Prog 2199 - Death Becomes Him!
Post by: Eamonn Clarke on 14 September, 2020, 08:41:55 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/IWA9jg1.jpg)
Paul Williams
Title: Re: Prog 2199 - Death Becomes Him!
Post by: Leigh S on 14 September, 2020, 09:31:44 PM
Moffat has a lot to answer for...
Title: Re: Prog 2199 - Death Becomes Him!
Post by: 73north on 15 September, 2020, 07:20:35 PM

Just received my copy ( still not read at 7pm tonight ) - arrived 3 days late

BATTLE 2020 BATTLE OF BRITAIN SPECIAL arrived yesterday - its pretty good - a couple of woeful stories
and one WOKE Story , the rest of them had me back to the 1970's and early 1980's !!
Title: Re: Prog 2199 - Death Becomes Him!
Post by: broodblik on 16 September, 2020, 05:19:13 AM
A good prog before almost everything is refreshed.

Dredd – The story comes to a satisfactory ending. This was maybe not Rob's most dynamic story and not the best epic ever, but it had some interesting surprises down the line. What I can say is that the whole art team and not only Colin and Henry but also the colourists Chris Blythe should get some credit for some awesome imagery thoroughly the series. One thing that I felt could benefit the story was maybe an additional 3 parts and something like a 6-part prologue.

Diaboliks – Rennie added other series to the growing Cabalistic-verse. I enjoyed the series and would like to see where he takes this.  I could not see last week how Rennie would end this storyline, but it was an interesting way of ending the story [spoiler]using the house as a weapon[/spoiler].

The Out – This was again one fantastic new series by Dan Abnett. Simon Harrison's art fits the whole story like a glove. It is almost like this was written for him (oh yes, it was). Hopefully, we will get some more of this (oh yes, we will). The book ends with a fabulous splash page.

3riller – This was a delightful tale.  This one did not have time to stand still and went full blast the whole time. It is even written in a way that it can return (hopefully it does).

Sin/Dex – After a lot of talking episodes the episode ends with a Bang.  The big critique here is not how the story has been told but how it was published. Sin/Dex is almost used as Future Shock a filler rather than a series.


Title: Re: Prog 2199 - Death Becomes Him!
Post by: Timothy on 16 September, 2020, 08:12:09 AM
Love the Kirby nod in Diaboliks.
Title: Re: Prog 2199 - Death Becomes Him!
Post by: Timothy on 16 September, 2020, 08:13:40 AM
Quote from: Timothy on 16 September, 2020, 08:12:09 AM
Love the Kirby nod in Diaboliks.
Luke, that is.
Title: Re: Prog 2199 - Death Becomes Him!
Post by: TordelBack on 16 September, 2020, 09:17:23 AM
HMMMMMM...

I thought Dredd ended well,  brisk and fun to the last - although perversely I'm counting on an epilogue. If I was to ask one more thing of the conclusion  it would have been to give Anderson a more humourous flourish to go with her reveal: "Joe, if there's one lesson i've learnt from being your psychic sidekick speed-dial all these years,  it's always get your retaliation in first' or Mama Anderson told me time management is the secret to getting a head'. Well like that,  but y'know, actually funny

In such a light-hearted apocalypse, it seemed like a missed opportunity not to let Anderson crack wise in a higher register.  Truly great art in the bit with Giant and Death.

Not entirely sure about the Rogue Trooper crossover in The Out, seemed like an odd change to the status quo to chuck in right at the end. Fun character though,  I'm  just pondering the change from internal reflections to the GFD solution to getting group dialogue into a solo story.  But then constant change has been the only constant in The Out, so very much looking forward to the next run!

Diaboliks has lost me for the moment I'm afraid, but I'm sure I'll get back into it again.

While Saphir has looked gorgeous I'd rather see more Alienist or Dandridge than more of it.

After an awful lot of small panels of even smaller figures wandering around introducing each other in featureless rooms Sinister Dexter redeems itself with a twist I didn't see coming, and i still have hope that backup the theoretical AI backup uploaded into Ray's headcase is the counter...

I'm ready for change next week,  is what I'm saying.
Title: Re: Prog 2199 - Death Becomes Him!
Post by: broodblik on 16 September, 2020, 09:38:48 AM
Tordel I think we will get something like  an epilogue because in next week's jump-on-prog we are getting a story by Rob Williams, Arthur Wyatt and Book Cook "Carry the Nine" dealing with the consequences with the events off "End of Days"
Title: Re: Prog 2199 - Death Becomes Him!
Post by: MumboJimbo on 16 September, 2020, 10:21:47 AM
Well, The End of Days ending was much better than I was fearing it might be. I'll wait to see how the effects of this are all worked out down the line before I can make a judgement on it, though. Will Anderson rock the Venus Blugenes dressed as Mary Poppins look for long? It's a bold fashion statement, at the very least.

Abnett does his now signature "end a series with a dialogue heavy installment with a view to future series" deal (see Grey Area, Lawless etc.) I guess a big shootout situation wouldn't really be what we've come to expect from The Out. It's been an excellent series though so far, but I hope we return soon as this feels more like a break than an ending proper.

I've liked Saffir, particularly the art, both David Roach's elegance and the muted but evocative colouring that helps to anchor it to the period. The story itself was a little perfunctory, but that's due to the 3riller format. Could become special if it gets a chance to breathe in a longer tale, and I very much hope Tharg deems it worthy of that.

The ending of Sinister Dexter I did not see coming, even though it had been very well set up, and we could've realised it ages ago. Hopefully the story can now get a bit of momentum going, as it feels like it's been in set-up mode for a while, putting pieces on the chess board and now it's time to see how the game plays out in an extended run for the strip.

The Diaboliks used its short 3 episode run well, and I guess the next part won't be long in coming and will involve Solomon and co taking on the second sister.

A decent prog all in all, with an intriguing ending for most strips. The Jury's still out for me on End of Days though, and I will leave it to simmer.
Title: Re: Prog 2199 - Death Becomes Him!
Post by: Bolt-01 on 16 September, 2020, 10:32:11 AM
And the more I look at it, the more I love the cover.

Paul has knocked it out of the park on this one.
Title: Re: Prog 2199 - Death Becomes Him!
Post by: judgeurko on 16 September, 2020, 10:54:45 AM
So its over at last with exposition! Lots of exposition. I guess the final episode befits the story as a whole, rushed inconsequential & with the feel of a first draft/that'll do approach. Awful. The worst so-called mega epic I can remember having to sit through.
Title: Re: Prog 2199 - Death Becomes Him!
Post by: IndigoPrime on 16 September, 2020, 11:59:24 AM
It's an odd one. That Dredd run felt quite old-school in the way it worked and rattled along, and I suspect it's a strip that won't be referenced a great deal. This is how Dredd feels as a whole these days, though. Without Wagner as a 'showrunner', there are a half-dozen competing Mega City Ones, each with their own cast and ideas. Massive things happen, but are then immediately ignored. This has to some extent always been the case—especially once you also consider Anderson stories; but I do wonder whether this strip will have any long-term impact on 2000 AD as a whole.

Elsewhere, Sin/Dex has kind of lost me, but The Out continues to be the best thing in the Prog. I loved the new character, and, hey, Cyd needs someone (something?) to chat to now and again, so she doesn't go bonkers. Looking forward to whatever's next from that.
Title: Re: Prog 2199 - Death Becomes Him!
Post by: Judge Olde on 16 September, 2020, 12:28:14 PM
Quote from: judgeurko on 16 September, 2020, 10:54:45 AM
So its over at last with exposition! Lots of exposition. I guess the final episode befits the story as a whole, rushed inconsequential & with the feel of a first draft/that'll do approach. Awful. The worst so-called mega epic I can remember having to sit through.

Totally agree.
Title: Re: Prog 2199 - Death Becomes Him!
Post by: Rately on 16 September, 2020, 01:43:29 PM
I'm usually very happy to see any Dredd by Rob and Henry, but this whole series has been somewhat disappointing. It just has not hung well. I'm sure that in a few weeks i'll take it all on in one sitting, but it has never really held my attention, been tense or seemingly built organically, just lots of exposition at the end to make it all hang, awkwardly, together.

The art has been spectacular all the way through, though.
Title: Re: Prog 2199 - Death Becomes Him!
Post by: norton canes on 16 September, 2020, 05:40:43 PM
Quote from: broodblik on 16 September, 2020, 09:38:48 AM
I think we will get something like  an epilogue because in next week's jump-on-prog we are getting a story by Rob Williams, Arthur Wyatt and Book Cook "Carry the Nine" dealing with the consequences with the events off "End of Days"

Really? Because that's just what a jumping-on prog needs - a strip referencing the last 16 weeks of story

Should be interesting.
Title: Re: Prog 2199 - Death Becomes Him!
Post by: Leigh S on 16 September, 2020, 06:12:44 PM
Next Prog; Dredd punches Climate Change to death.

Quote from: norton canes on 16 September, 2020, 05:40:43 PM
Quote from: broodblik on 16 September, 2020, 09:38:48 AM
I think we will get something like  an epilogue because in next week's jump-on-prog we are getting a story by Rob Williams, Arthur Wyatt and Book Cook "Carry the Nine" dealing with the consequences with the events off "End of Days"

Really? Because that's just what a jumping-on prog needs - a strip referencing the last 16 weeks of story

Should be interesting.
Title: Re: Prog 2199 - Death Becomes Him!
Post by: TordelBack on 16 September, 2020, 06:21:08 PM
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 16 September, 2020, 11:59:24 AM
I loved the new character, and, hey, Cyd needs someone (something?) to chat to now and again, so she doesn't go bonkers.

Presuming she hasn't gone bonkers post-resurrection, of course. I'm thinking of Halo talking to Toy's corpse here, and whenbI do all I see is panels of a lady talking to her handbag...
Title: Re: Prog 2199 - Death Becomes Him!
Post by: The Sherman Kid on 16 September, 2020, 09:14:43 PM
Dredd Okay.....can anyone explain what just happened because I must admit I am completely baffled by that ending.
* How did Anderson move through time/go to another realm/dimension whatever she did?
* How did she just shrug off the Angel possession?
* How did Dredd just kill Death with a punch?
* Is Ichabod alive in the present (eyes opened)
* The moon was moved -how did it go back to where it was (the engines were on the dark side) ?

If a story requires so much exposition and still doesn't make sense well...something has gone badly wrong.

An Epic that had its moments but kind of imploded at the end.

PS -Agree that Giant did weirdly act out of character throughout
Title: Re: Prog 2199 - Death Becomes Him!
Post by: The Sherman Kid on 16 September, 2020, 09:28:07 PM
PPS -The Out Can't not mention this. Brilliant. Pure genius with the perfect artwork to match. I doft my cap to both and look forward to Book two.
Title: Re: Prog 2199 - Death Becomes Him!
Post by: TordelBack on 16 September, 2020, 09:43:34 PM
The short answer is that Anderson uses the Angel's power to do all the wibbly wobbly timey wimey stuff, which power merged with her own abilities means that Cassandra Blint is more powerful than the Angel itself.

And there is if course no dark side of the moon, but makes for a better lyric than farside, so we're stuck with it. But that doesn't answer your question.

Dredd one-punch-kills death because that's what he does. A better question might be why Scaramanga's gun kills the Famine host, but not Joe.
Title: Re: Prog 2199 - Death Becomes Him!
Post by: Professor Bear on 16 September, 2020, 10:22:52 PM
Because it kills death, of course.  Don't overthink it.

Got to agree this was far and away the best episode of the Dredd story, because now it's over, and that buys a lot of goodwill with me after fifteen weeks of serialised disappointment.  I think the problem is that there's no real way to do an "epic" Dredd that doesn't already get done all the time - judges and citizens get killed by the hundreds in the average Dredd story, city blocks and even countries explode, Dredd gets shot or possessed, a secret conspiracy is exposed, etc.  Where do you go, really?  Williams decided on the "bigger and more gonzo" route beloved of Hollywood, but I wonder if the way to go would have been to make a more episodic, smaller-scale epic that ran through the prog for six months or so (although even that's been done).

The Out felt like the first episode of the second volume.  Still the best thing in the book.
Thrill3rs, Diaboliks and Sin/Dex were fine.
Title: Re: Prog 2199 - Death Becomes Him!
Post by: Bad City Blue on 16 September, 2020, 10:58:33 PM
thank Grud "End Of Days" is over. One of the dullest Dredd epics ever, even the art felt phoned in at times.
Title: Re: Prog 2199 - Death Becomes Him!
Post by: The Enigmatic Dr X on 16 September, 2020, 11:36:51 PM
There are three types of Dredd epic: end of the world (Necropolis, Apocalypse War, Day of Chaos); political chicanery (Chief Judge's Man, Trifecta); and crime procedural (The Pit).

Only the first has been done to death. The last hasn't been done nearly enough.
Title: Re: Prog 2199 - Death Becomes Him!
Post by: BPP on 16 September, 2020, 11:37:18 PM
How grumpy, you sure you're not all on Facebook.

I enjoyed this Dredd run and Henry's art is always something else. Hurrah to all involved.

Now can we have a Casandra Azrael series please?
Title: Re: Prog 2199 - Death Becomes Him!
Post by: BPP on 16 September, 2020, 11:39:14 PM
Quote from: The Enigmatic Dr X on 16 September, 2020, 11:36:51 PM
There are three types of Dredd epic: end of the world (Necropolis, Apocalypse War, Day of Chaos); political chicanery (Chief Judge's Man, Trifecta); and crime procedural (The Pit).

Only the first has been done to death. The last hasn't been done nearly enough.

The small house, the Dan Francisco arc and that-time-Texas-invaded would be political chicanery.
Title: Re: Prog 2199 - Death Becomes Him!
Post by: Andy B on 17 September, 2020, 01:38:37 AM
Quote from: BPP on 16 September, 2020, 11:37:18 PM
How grumpy, you sure you're not all on Facebook.

It certainly is an unusual amount of negativity for this forum. I think it's just disappointment: a 15-part epic from creators of this caliber sounded awesome, and it just... wasn't.

Speaking of disappointment, still no Slaine? Tharg teases an unexpected return next week, but that cant be it: we've been expecting Slaine for months!
Title: Re: Prog 2199 - Death Becomes Him!
Post by: broodblik on 17 September, 2020, 04:50:11 AM
Quote from: Andy B on 17 September, 2020, 01:38:37 AM
Speaking of disappointment, still no Slaine? Tharg teases an unexpected return next week, but that cant be it: we've been expecting Slaine for months!

It was even mention in the 2000AD websites news section that Slaine will return. I will disappointed if it does not but maybe understandable if you followed a certain thread.
Title: Re: Prog 2199 - Death Becomes Him!
Post by: MumboJimbo on 17 September, 2020, 06:19:27 AM
Now I've had time to mull over End of Days, I think it was a big disappointment. The ending wasn't as bad as I feared, but was still a lot of hand-waving fluff to dig itself out of a narrative hole that requires a suspension of disbelief that I find hard to summon up. The Bill and Ted style aspect of Anderson going back in time to fix things afterwards didn't sit with me well either. And the "because it's inevitable" explanation of why she never attempted to prevent this all from happening in the first place was feeble.

I enjoy the prog in general, The Out has been sublime, but this was a big misfire, for me. In interviews Rob Williams mentioned wanted to do a big old school epic like City of Damned. But that one, although it started off with great promise, ultimately failed to sustain that, so not a great place for inspiration in my book.

On that post Limitations of Comics I wrote a longish screed on aspects of compressed storytelling in comics that doesn't sit well with me, and someone replied basically having the complete opposite view to everything I'd written. It made me think whether I was trying to make comics and 2000 AD in particular something it was never really meant to be, and whether I wouldn't be better off reading more literary fiction or whatever if I'm looking for something deep and meaningful with satisfying character arcs. It made me question why I came back to reading the comic again, and whether it is ultimately a nostalgia thing or it's actually the stories themselves. Certainly End of Days has had me questioning these issues a lot - whether I'm wanting the prog to be something it really shouldn't be, but at my ripe old age an action heavy plot with not much in the way of character development or some deeper meaning does nothing for me whatsoever, but I can't deny that's something that the prog has always been doing, and it was far more prevalent in the 80s than the likes of Halo Jones. So maybe it's not the End of Days, maybe it's me.
Title: Re: Prog 2199 - Death Becomes Him!
Post by: broodblik on 17 September, 2020, 06:29:51 AM
"End of Days" was for me like a Michael Bay summer blockbuster popcorn movie. It was never about the substance and deep character build up but more about the over the top plot unrealistic action-fest. I have read it in that fashion. I do not want all my comics to be the deeper meaning of life and why do we exist stuff. Fluff is fine. That is why stories like "The Out" gets published.  Not everything can be the next "Watchmen". I enjoyed "End of Days".
Title: Re: Prog 2199 - Death Becomes Him!
Post by: Greg M. on 17 September, 2020, 06:52:16 AM
Quote from: MumboJimbo on 17 September, 2020, 06:19:27 AMSo maybe it's not the End of Days, maybe it's me.
Compressed comics and character development are not mutually exclusive. Though his stories have become more slow-burning in the latter half of his career, John Wagner has always balanced the two with the skill of a master. Song of the Surfer and Return of the Taxidermist are perfect examples. Similarly, something like Pete Milligan's Bad Company I & II handle both with aplomb.

The problem with End of Days isn't that it's too compressed - seems to me there's still plenty of characters sitting around talking. It's that the characterisation, to my mind, is off, that Dredd doesn't do a whole lot, and that it's all a bit Steven Moffat, for want of a better phrase. I've got no problem at all with the idea of Dredd vs Four Horseman, or the idea of doing it as a round-the-world OTT action romp, and I don't think it needs a big prologue.
Title: Re: Prog 2199 - Death Becomes Him!
Post by: broodblik on 17 September, 2020, 06:57:51 AM
I think that was the main problem that the story was too compressed. Each of horseman was dealt quite quickly. I still believe an additional few episodes would have resolved these issues.
Title: Re: Prog 2199 - Death Becomes Him!
Post by: Greg M. on 17 September, 2020, 07:10:39 AM
From my perspective, building extra floors on a house with dodgy foundations doesn't make it a better house.
Title: Re: Prog 2199 - Death Becomes Him!
Post by: broodblik on 17 September, 2020, 07:14:21 AM
True but building better support for the foundation does help
Title: Re: Prog 2199 - Death Becomes Him!
Post by: MumboJimbo on 17 September, 2020, 07:19:43 AM
Quote from: Greg M. on 17 September, 2020, 06:52:16 AM
Quote from: MumboJimbo on 17 September, 2020, 06:19:27 AMSo maybe it's not the End of Days, maybe it's me.
Compressed comics and character development are not mutually exclusive. Though his stories have become more slow-burning in the latter half of his career, John Wagner has always balanced the two with the skill of a master. Song of the Surfer and Return of the Taxidermist are perfect examples. Similarly, something like Pete Milligan's Bad Company I & II handle both with aplomb.

Yes, you're right. I remember the bit in Nemesis Book 5 (I think) where Nemesis kills a bus load of kids without any remorse. Had a big effect on me back then, and mad me start to question whether he was really a hero or just your enemy's enemy. And that was probably done in 3 panels or so.

I guess my point was a general one that action focused stories are probably fine in modern 2000 AD even if I don't personally get much from then. Certainly Dredd is not the most nuanced character in the world and neither should he be. A lot of that nuance back in the 80s was provided by the poor saps who had to live in MC-1 and make some kind of sense of their lives.

I would have still liked the final episode of End of Days to be spread out over, say 2 or 3 episodes as I think the revelations could've been given chance to land better. But, paradoxically I also with the whole thing had been shorter!
Title: Re: Prog 2199 - Death Becomes Him!
Post by: MumboJimbo on 17 September, 2020, 07:34:17 AM
Quote from: broodblik on 17 September, 2020, 06:29:51 AM
"End of Days" was for me like a Michael Bay summer blockbuster popcorn movie. It was never about the substance and deep character build up but more about the over the top plot unrealistic action-fest. I have read it in that fashion. I do not want all my comics to be the deeper meaning of life and why do we exist stuff. Fluff is fine. That is why stories like "The Out" gets published.  Not everything can be the next "Watchmen". I enjoyed "End of Days".

I agree with most of that, but still think End of Days didn't achieve what it set out to be very effectively. And Michael Bay movies are awful not because they're big budget action fests but because he clearly has no interest in creating a coherent plot that even an action movie should have. And the hand-waving, just-go-along-with-it slapdash nature of a Bay movie does have echoes in End of Days.

As Greg point out, it's not an either-or situation and action oriented stories can have some good character interactions that make you think or shed new light on aspects of their personality. It can even be done as part of the action, and seamless with the action. It's a difficult trick to pull off, but then good creative is a high level skill.
Title: Re: Prog 2199 - Death Becomes Him!
Post by: TordelBack on 17 September, 2020, 07:41:02 AM
Ťhe idea that there is no place for rather silly magical quest Dredd stories with more action/gags than character development or wider implications seems to fly in the face of the history of the strip. It's absolutely fine not to like them, they wouldn't be my favourite, but they've been here all along. I wasn't looking forward to it, but End of Days was a bit of fun, and for maximum bonus points there wasn't an invisible ninja, a corrupt judge or a secret conspiracy to be seen. 

Plenty of gritty character-focused stompy-robot celeb-killing action over in the Magazine this month; I commend its purchase to the house. 
Title: Re: Prog 2199 - Death Becomes Him!
Post by: MumboJimbo on 17 September, 2020, 07:55:02 AM
There are certainly many a silly/magical Dredd quest in the annals - the Wizard of Oz parody when it went full colour springs to mind. I don't think though we've ever had one that last for 15 episodes (or whatever). I guess that's maybe where readers' expectations were wrongfooted. We expected it be more the cerebral thing that a long form Dredd usually is.
Title: Re: Prog 2199 - Death Becomes Him!
Post by: TordelBack on 17 September, 2020, 08:06:41 AM
It certainly wrong-footed me going into it,  I was very grumpy indeed when I thought we were getting 4 months of Titan-meets-Judgement-Day, but when it turned out that there would be polar bears, psychic baboushka dolls and world-engines I relaxed and started enjoying it as an over-stuffed Dredd-does-Sirius-Rising.

To be clear though, this is not what I want from Dredd every week, but it's definitely the end of Williams' writing that I prefer.
Title: Re: Prog 2199 - Death Becomes Him!
Post by: Link Prime on 17 September, 2020, 08:11:36 AM
I was about to comment with an amusing (to me) rant about the End of Days suck-fest, but decided against it.

Rob Williams is a very talented Script Droid and a very nice fellow, and I have enjoyed his work to varying degrees ("Thumbs up" to "Zarjaz") from 2002 to 2019.
I look forward to enjoying it again in 2021.

Title: Re: Prog 2199 - Death Becomes Him!
Post by: AlexF on 17 September, 2020, 11:13:32 AM
Being a massive contrarian, I feel moved to defend End of Days.
(but to be honest I didn't think it was great)

I will say that I don't entirely understand how the ending works, but I also have learned not to mind that sort of thing much. As anyone who goes to see Tenet can attest.

Williams had basically painted himself into a corner where his story reveolves around Dredd and Co having to hunt for and then fight four different villains. So each encounter has to be different from the last, and the fights have to be resolved in a different way each time, ideally ramping up the tension and saving the most dramatic / extreme solution for last.

People have already sacrificed their lives to defeat earlier horsemen, so Giant CAN'T do the same here. Azrael was always set up to be the person who could kill death - so drama rules dictsate that he HAS to fail (to make it more exciting), leaving the solution to be that it's the gun not the man that matters.
But that's not enough to defeat the final ultimate baddie, so Williams is obliged to come up with some crazy Bill & Ted time shenanigans that you really can't see coming. And as such it IS a little unsatisfying, but there's still fun to be had in there.

Plus, when the overt theme of the story is 'inevitability', it does make sense that the ending will be just as arbitrary and predetermined as the beginning. The horsemen appear beause they just DO; and Anderson saves the day by setting things up so she always was going to win.

I'd say that as an epic based around supernatural whatnots it is definitely better than City of the Damned (my own fondness for Steve Dillon's work aside). But yeah, it's not as good as almost all other epics!

Rest of the Prog: pretty great.
Title: Re: Prog 2199 - Death Becomes Him!
Post by: broodblik on 17 September, 2020, 11:36:53 AM
Quote from: AlexF on 17 September, 2020, 11:13:32 AM
I'd say that as an epic based around supernatural whatnots it is definitely better than City of the Damned (my own fondness for Steve Dillon's work aside). But yeah, it's not as good as almost all other epics!

I will also rate End of Days higher than City of the Damned. Another epic which I never understood why people rate it so high was The Pit.
Title: Re: Prog 2199 - Death Becomes Him!
Post by: Rately on 17 September, 2020, 11:43:58 AM
Quote from: broodblik on 17 September, 2020, 11:36:53 AM
Quote from: AlexF on 17 September, 2020, 11:13:32 AM
I'd say that as an epic based around supernatural whatnots it is definitely better than City of the Damned (my own fondness for Steve Dillon's work aside). But yeah, it's not as good as almost all other epics!

I will also rate End of Days higher than City of the Damned. Another epic which I never understood why people rate it so high was The Pit.

I think in my older age, and as my tastes for comics have changed, that i now appreciate an Epic like The Pit more, because it was sprawling, developed so many good characters and set-ups, and felt, and still feels, like it will echo long into Dredd's future in terms of story, and how other writers write the character.

I loved it at the initial time of rereading and all subsequent re-readings, and it really is inching towards replacing Curses Earth and Necropolis as my favourite epics. My interest in the more supernatural tales of Dredd have definitely waned, not to say i wouldn't enjoy a one-off or two, just not more long form, sprawling series.
Title: Re: Prog 2199 - Death Becomes Him!
Post by: Greg M. on 17 September, 2020, 12:07:38 PM
Quote from: broodblik on 17 September, 2020, 11:36:53 AM
Another epic which I never understood why people rate it so high was The Pit.
The Pit is a spectacular return to form for a series that had finally found its feet again after a long time in on the ground. Obviously there'd been good-to-great Wagner stories in the interim - The Cal Files and Bad Frendz are both superb and very much part of the run-up to what The Pit achieved - but here was 'Judge Dredd' reinvented - a new template for the the series going forward. I remember reading Dredd's first line - "My name is Dredd. You may have heard of me. I'm a stickler." - and being immediately blown away by how much characterisation Wagner packed in there. It's still one of the best openings to any series. If the back half of The Pit isn't quite as strong as the front (needs more Carlos!) there's still some great pay-offs, like the return of Greel.
Title: Re: Prog 2199 - Death Becomes Him!
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 17 September, 2020, 12:20:56 PM
Quote from: Greg M. on 17 September, 2020, 12:07:38 PM
but here was 'Judge Dredd' reinvented

This was very much John's intent, IIRC. Practically a manifesto for the strip going forward, which he described* as "less of a hero, more of a cop".


*Actual words may vary due to failing memory circuits, but that was definitely the gist.
Title: Re: Prog 2199 - Death Becomes Him!
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 17 September, 2020, 01:58:53 PM
Quote from: Greg M. on 17 September, 2020, 12:07:38 PM
Quote from: broodblik on 17 September, 2020, 11:36:53 AM
Another epic which I never understood why people rate it so high was The Pit.
I remember reading Dredd's first line - "My name is Dredd. You may have heard of me. I'm a stickler." - and being immediately blown away by how much characterisation Wagner packed in there. It's still one of the best openings to any series. If the back half of The Pit isn't quite as strong as the front (needs more Carlos!) there's still some great pay-offs, like the return of Greel.

Yep - though I do have a bit of nostalgia for the more Old-Testamenty aspects of Dredd lore, and the citizen-heavy stories, The Pit was incredible.

Judges had lots of personality for the first time (in the past, if it wasn't batshit crazy, it was varying degrees of Dredd and Anderson; with Hershey sometimes a bit Dredd and sometimes a bit Anderson) - Buell, for example, showed that a judge could be hard as nails but watch a few old cowboy movies when he got a spare hour.

I do kind of miss scenes, though, of Judge Solomon being a kind of semi-mythical figure rather than a desk-bound bureaucrat, and can't imagine someone like Dan Francisco divorcing a married couple against their will.

Back to End of Days - the ending did a good job of wrapping up, and the whole thing was pretty enjoyable as a summer mega-epic, but it wasn't very memorable sadly.
Title: Re: Prog 2199 - Death Becomes Him!
Post by: TordelBack on 17 September, 2020, 02:08:52 PM
Tharg could start running a 100-part epic Pit 2: Harrier & Smellier next week and I wouldn't object. Graveyard Shift and Sunday Night Fever were my favourite '80s Dredds (along with Midnight Surfer) and the more of these types of loca proceduram plus ensemble cast is right up my street. Give it to Mike Carroll and Ken Niemand to alternate arcs, they've both made successful moves in this direction with the Kindred, Patsy and Chimpsky stories.  Drool.
Title: Re: Prog 2199 - Death Becomes Him!
Post by: SmallBlueThing(Reborn) on 17 September, 2020, 02:14:25 PM
End of Days was distracting enough, but too reminiscent of the Bad Old Days (Crusade, Judgement Day etc) for me to be anything other than glad it's over.

One good thing has been that even the usual "2000AD is entirely about Dredd" lot over on that there Facebook have been forced to look elsewhere for their thrills, and more light has been shone on The Out than perhaps would otherwise have been, in the endless debate about minutiae of Mega City Lore. The Out has been the absolute highlight of the prog this year so far- and hopefully just the first book of many. Anyone know whether Harrison is a "quick" artist, because this needs to return as fast as is humanly possible.

The obvious question about Slaine remains- I was expecting a Manco cover on 2200, and not the image we were presented with in 2199. But something about that- which is undeniably a pretty spectacular piece of art- shouts "placeholder" to me. Maybe because it's not seemingly relevant to any strip as far as I can tell.

SBT
Title: Re: Prog 2199 - Death Becomes Him!
Post by: Magnetica on 17 September, 2020, 02:19:24 PM
I wasn't expecting Bagman to reappear in the Prog, so that was a surprise.
Title: Re: Prog 2199 - Death Becomes Him!
Post by: broodblik on 17 September, 2020, 02:19:45 PM
SBT it is a new story that was foretold in September solicitation. I think it is also the cover for prog 2200
Title: Re: Prog 2199 - Death Becomes Him!
Post by: matty_ae on 17 September, 2020, 05:37:07 PM
it's speculation to a point but maybe End of Days was the victim of being reduced in weeks but not being able to reduce the plot.

Maybe the filthy Sov's capturing the third Horseman was meant to be shown. Maybe there was less exposition. So perhaps not being able to cut down Four individually shown Horsemen was the problem and led to talky-talky episodes.

Maybe the big beats and reveals would have come in a story that just breathed a bit more.
Title: Re: Prog 2199 - Death Becomes Him!
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 17 September, 2020, 09:46:02 PM
Quote from: TordelBack on 17 September, 2020, 02:08:52 PMGraveyard Shift and Sunday Night Fever were my favourite '80s Dredds

The Graveyard Shift was a little bit further back than I remember (I've re-read it since, of course) but I remember reading Sunday Night Fever and it was perfect - Dredd and Mega City 1, distilled and bottled.  Those leapers with the bystanders egging them on were simultaneously funny and chilling.  Can't really imagine anyone other than Cam Kennedy on art duty either.

Title: Re: Prog 2199 - Death Becomes Him!
Post by: judgeurko on 18 September, 2020, 11:21:37 AM
Quote from: broodblik on 17 September, 2020, 06:29:51 AM
"End of Days" was for me like a Michael Bay summer blockbuster popcorn movie. It was never about the substance and deep character build up but more about the over the top plot unrealistic action-fest. I have read it in that fashion. I do not want all my comics to be the deeper meaning of life and why do we exist stuff. Fluff is fine. That is why stories like "The Out" gets published.  Not everything can be the next "Watchmen". I enjoyed "End of Days".
That's probably a fair comparison. & I hate Michael Bay.
Title: Re: Prog 2199 - Death Becomes Him!
Post by: Jacqusie on 18 September, 2020, 08:29:07 PM
Quote from: broodblik on 16 September, 2020, 05:19:13 AM

Dredd – ...the whole art team and not only Colin and Henry but also the colourists Chris Blythe should get some credit for some awesome imagery thoroughly the series. One thing that I felt could benefit the story was maybe an additional 3 parts and something like a 6-part prologue.


I agree, it looked fantastic throughout, although I'm glad it wasn't just me that thought there could have been a better build up crafting plot threads and characters into setting the scene for the big bonzo off round the world.

So many small interludes could have seen the whole thing knit together more and make it feel less rushed and wham bam off we go again man. Although the ending was a longer page count, it still felt quickened and I think for me, it was just a bit too much to cram in one summer like it did.

I'm thinking of the Titan plot line... if Rob had condensed that into one big storyline, it would have probably felt the same, a great premise, but rushed. As it was there was time and space (pun intended) to let the story gain momentum and let the characters breathe and build stories.

The End of Days, A good mega-epic that COULD have been an Epic mega-epic, but still head and shoulders above Every Empire Falls...
Title: Re: Prog 2199 - Death Becomes Him!
Post by: Proudhuff on 19 September, 2020, 12:08:12 PM
Quote from: TordelBack on 17 September, 2020, 08:06:41 AM
It certainly wrong-footed me going into it,  I was very grumpy indeed when I thought we were getting 4 months of Titan-meets-Judgement-Day, but when it turned out that there would be polar bears, psychic baboushka dolls and world-engines I relaxed and started enjoying it as an over-stuffed Dredd-does-Sirius-Rising.

To be clear though, this is not what I want from Dredd every week, but it's definitely the end of Williams' writing that I prefer.

This^^^^

Title: Re: Prog 2199 - Death Becomes Him!
Post by: MacabreMagpie on 20 September, 2020, 04:52:29 PM
Here's the skinny on how this prog's cover was created, for those interested
https://2000ad.com/news/2000-ad-covers-uncovered-paul-williams-on-prog-2199s-death-from-above/
Title: Re: Prog 2199 - Death Becomes Him!
Post by: Bolt-01 on 20 September, 2020, 07:29:11 PM
Always a pleasure to see the evolution of the cover.
Title: Re: Prog 2199 - Death Becomes Him!
Post by: wedgeski on 21 September, 2020, 10:44:10 AM
First prog back after returning to print from digital. So nice to have the prog back in my hands!

Dredd -- I'm not sure I can add more to what has already been said. Framed as an alien invasion this had the scope to be something special but squeezing something so massive into such a small space did a lot of harm, especially with the myth-tapping apocalypse villains. That said, it picked up nicely once the team hit East Meg, and the end was satisfactory, which for Dredd still means it was a good read. Honestly, I would have preferred Dredd to have been in that final incarnation the whole way through the story, and for the others to have been chasing a means to save him and/or undo the damage he was inflicting. Married up with a cool internal struggle, perhaps linked to Dredd's history with East Meg...? Dunno, sounds interesting to me.
Title: Re: Prog 2199 - Death Becomes Him!
Post by: norton canes on 23 September, 2020, 09:45:26 PM
Been holding off on making a post for almost a week now - I think I'm still trying to get my head around End Of Days' denouement, and working out whether I enjoyed it or not. I reckon the Ichabod/Angel/Anderson ingredients were one layer too many, to be honest. They seemed to jump in and out of the narrative, being superfluous at some points then, when it was expedient, crucial to the plot. Too many cooks (protagonists) spoiling the broth (story). That said, there weren't many instalments I didn't enjoy and by the penultimate episode I was genuinely intrigues to see how it would play out. Kudos to Rob Williams and and all those on visuals for providing a memorable summer blockbuster.

Elsewhere in the prog, the strangest thing was seeing the whole premise of The Out turned on its head, with Cyd no longer having to rely on conversations with her own inner monologue. Does the story really need a cutesy sidekick? I guess book II will tell.

Hey! I just remembered this!

Quote from: norton canes on 02 July, 2020, 11:07:33 AMThe Out rocks up with a stunning first page - and belatedly, a proper logo. However although we get a big picture we're still not given the big picture, as a plot proves elusive. Is the whole thing going to be loosely-structured in the vein of Halo Jones book II? Or... I'm not quite sure why, but... I've got a tiny inkling at the back of my thrill-synapses that we're being lulled into a false sense of security and this is going to take a really dark and unexpected turn at some point

I can be quite perceptive, sometimes.