Conspiracy Theory Debate

[JayzusB.Christ]

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I heard on a podcast once that no conspiracy theory has ever been proven to be true, though I'm prepared to stand corrected.

How about the Iran-Contra affair - that was a conspiracy and most certainly happend.
Or the MKUltra experiments conducted by the CIA?

I don't think the skeptic I listened to was saying that no conspiracies ever happened. That would be ridiculous.
I doubt that coup in Myanmar, for instance, happened just because lots of army people happened to turn up on the same day. It was more that conspiracy theories hadn't been proven.  Were the situations you mentioned theorised and the theories spread about before the facts came out?  Possibly - this is definitely not a hill I'm prepared to die on. Just wish I could remember the podcast I heard it on.

As for ODB - and without for one minute suggesting that ODB was anything less than a Socrates for our times - well, he didn't actually say they were watching him, did he? He simply asked them not to, in the same fashion that he gave verbal consent to a young lady to call him dirty when, and only when, he lifted up her skirt.

[milstar]

What conspiracies do you believe exist

Now that you ask me that, I'd say the conflict in Middle East is all for oil (perhaps some shadier motives) and nothing for the benefit of citizens there. I also believe that, at least in Europe, football matches (not all, but some of them) are fixed in all major leagues, because both FIFA and UEFA are deeply corrupted organizations. Also, I don't believe in official interpretation of the JFK murder. Whatever is the alternative, I don't care, but I bet there is more than a simple Lee Harvey Oswald shot. Oh and this. That HIV/AIDS virus is created in a lab. I mean, such perfect virus gotta be.

The low-hanging fruit of counterpoint is definitely the virus one - I don't know of any evidence that points to that conclusion.

For the JFK thing, I'd be surprised if most people didn't believe there was more to it than a lone shooter - although I think a lot of that is driven by information we're exposed to - not least in the form of a very popular movie (itself driven by rumor and wonder). But, there's strictly no evidence beyond that of the lone shooter. I struggle with this one because it's so popular I find myself falling into the fiction and wondering if it may be real. I'm only human.

I've seen stories in the news that outline definite corruption within sports organizations - so it wouldn't surprise me either to find that there's more as yet undiscovered.

And oil is definitely a motivator in foreign policy. Everyone's perturbed by the Saudi state openly murdering its critics, but nobody wants to stop dealing with them financially. See also: China's human rights record. Then look at where those plastic toys your kids are playing with were made. Oops!

Yeah well, your government is lying to you. What else is knew? About oil issue, I referred to the fact that whole government were thrown off under the pretense of fighting for human rights.
As for JFK, regardless if it LHO hits hitting JFK, I don't doubt that there was a second shooter. I watched some documentary about the whole thing. And they distinctly said that majority of Americans don't believe the version they've been served.

[Funt Solo]

And they distinctly said that majority of Americans don't believe the version they've been served.

Right. I know you know that isn't evidence, though. Majority belief doesn't equate to actualities.

[Rara Avis]

As for ODB - and without for one minute suggesting that ODB was anything less than a Socrates for our times - well, he didn't actually say they were watching him, did he? He simply asked them not to, in the same fashion that he gave verbal consent to a young lady to call him dirty when, and only when, he lifted up her skirt.

As the great man himself said "It ain't easy bein' greasy"

[JayzusB.Christ]

As for ODB - and without for one minute suggesting that ODB was anything less than a Socrates for our times - well, he didn't actually say they were watching him, did he? He simply asked them not to, in the same fashion that he gave verbal consent to a young lady to call him dirty when, and only when, he lifted up her skirt.

As the great man himself said "It ain't easy bein' greasy"

Not to take anything from him, but I think he may have been quoting Descartes there.

[milstar]

And they distinctly said that majority of Americans don't believe the version they've been served.

Right. I know you know that isn't evidence, though. Majority belief doesn't equate to actualities.

Well, count me in, 'cuz I don't believe in official version either.

[JayzusB.Christ]

As for me, I watched a documentary that showed fairly comprehensively how it could easily have been a lone gunman.  Still wondering, though: what makes you say AIDS is a 'perfect' virus?

[Funt Solo]

And they distinctly said that majority of Americans don't believe the version they've been served.

Right. I know you know that isn't evidence, though. Majority belief doesn't equate to actualities.

Well, count me in, 'cuz I don't believe in official version either.

Indeed. But if we're seeking truth then our belief is neither here nor there. Evidence is the thing. Welcome to science.

[milstar]

And they distinctly said that majority of Americans don't believe the version they've been served.

Right. I know you know that isn't evidence, though. Majority belief doesn't equate to actualities.

Well, count me in, 'cuz I don't believe in official version either.

Indeed. But if we're seeking truth then our belief is neither here nor there. Evidence is the thing. Welcome to science.

I'd agree with science if science determined the thing. So far, we are left only with speculations. Like when Epstein was found dead in his cell, and people declared it was suicide, other said it was a murder. Considering cameras malfunctioned in the moment he "hanged" himself.

[Funt Solo]

It's difficult not to reach for words like "moronic" at this point. It's as if you can't tell the difference between fiction and non-fiction. I imagine libraries are an unsolvable conundrum.

[milstar]

Yawn... childish insults. Great reminder never to discuss with you in the future. Or that needs "evidence".

[Funt Solo]

Yes, well - I can only apologize. I would never be so crass myself, of course, so clearly my computer was hacked by the Depp State (as part of his piratical plan to take over the world from his base in the Caribbean).

If you don't believe me, here is evidence of his levitating cargo ships, discovered by a True Brit non-sheeple dog walker:

[milstar]

Sorry, I don't trust flying ships. They look too real.

[Tjm86]

That HIV/AIDS virus is created in a lab. I mean, such perfect virus gotta be.

... or just a perfect example of random mutation.

What's so 'perfect' about it anyway? Extraordinary claims, as they say, need extraordinary evidence - if you have any that definitively trumps all the evidence that it evolved naturally like every other virus then I might be halfway convinced.

Leaving aside the poor choice of 'perfect' that arguably raises the point perhaps a little too high, I'm going to have to throw Occams razor into the pot.

So here is my question:

given that bio-engineering technology back in the 80's when HIV/AIDS first surfaced was still quite rudimentary by modern standards, that the virus is itself incredibly complex, that no evidence has ever been produced to support the thesis that this is the result of human manufacture, that geneticists have long since provided a massive body of evidence in support of mutation / adaptability as a factor in the development of viruses (Covid's 'Kent variant' for instance) to the extent that it can now be explained by a BBC journalist without too much trouble, what is the more reasonable explanation - HIV/AIDS was manufactured in a lab or that it is the natural result of biological processes?

Certainly I am willing to concede that there is a chance (incredibly remote) that the virus was indeed manufactured.  Then again, I'm also willing to concede that there is a chance that you were trolling me and I bit too hard!   

[The Legendary Shark]

HIV crossed from chimps to humans in the 1920s in what is now the Democratic Republic of Congo. This was probably as a result of chimps carrying the Simian Immunodeficiency Virus (SIV), a virus closely related to HIV, being hunted and eaten by people living in the area.

One interesting thing about viruses is that they can share genetic information between themselves - even between different types - so they evolve in real time, as it were. This horizontal gene transfer is not necessarily a bad thing as viruses such as syphilis and scarlet fever have transformed into the less lethal strains we have today.

This is not to say that laboratory-altered viruses do not exist or have never been released, however the natural world is far more likely to produce novel viruses, I think.