2000 AD Online Forum

Seeing as how there are now dedicated threads for some other topics, I'll start one for Lettering, as it holds a special place in my heart.

Folks interested in lettering can do worse than visit:

Blambot (http://blambot.com/) for a massive range of both FREE and PAY fonts and some nifty tutorials.

Comicraft fonts (http://www.comicbookfonts.com/home.html?sid=0001U2li4h9kMRUeA01v5T2) is also cool, as they have a fair few tutorials, though it does cost more for fonts.

Please feel free to add to this thread if you find something nifty.

Thanks for starting this.

There is some earlier discussion here (http://2000adonline.com/forum/index.php/topic,25639.0.html) and this came up somewhere and Richard Starkings (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Starkings) and Comicraft are some of the leading letterers in the field so there advice is always useful:

www.balloontales.com/articles/tutorial/index.html

I have downloaded a few of those fonts from Blambot and every one has been a winner!

I'll just throw this out there as an aid to other amateurs looking for a relatively quick and cheap way of getting their own style of lettering as a usable font. The kerning is a bit off here and there - but I managed to make what I think is a passable hand-lettered style font.
http://www.yourfonts.com/ (http://www.yourfonts.com/)
It's really simple - download the template - fill it in - upload it - test it and then pay the $9.95 via paypal to download your font. The font is a truetype .ttf file useable on both mac and pc.

What I did was to open up the template in illustrator and created my letters by dragging nodes around. That way you can play around a bit with the letter forms rather than having to be spot on with every letter by hand. I then exported a high-res file to use as my uploaded template. The test facility is your friend, I uploaded about four or five templates until I was happy enough and eventually paid for the download. You also get e-mailed the font-file as a back-up.
Here is the final font just to give some idea of what you get for your money:


I used both cases with variants for all the letters so I could substitute those all important san-serif i's and double o's where necessary.
Also, here's a link (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/__HDuLFUg18A/SkNw_tSTI4I/AAAAAAAAA9g/543Vz11NDL8/s1600-h/THE_PRAYING_MANTIS.jpg) to "The Praying Mantis", a crappy one-panel gag I did as a quick test.

I also invested in a bold version a couple of weeks ago. A word of caution about this service though, this is by no means the best way to make a font. The major advantage however is the cost compared to a proper font generation package.
For quality's sake, it's probably safest to stick to one of the free fonts from Blambot, unless you specifically and desperately need your own lettering in the speech bubbles.

The only other thing I have to say about lettering is never, ever use Comic Sans (for anything).

Was shown a chapter from a new Insomnia book in the pub last night; writer is from Belfast. First thing I noticed is how professional the lettering was. Then today I find out the lettering is by Jim Campbell. I have since revised my opinion.

-pj
ps the story was really interesting too - some great ideas.

Took me a while but I found http://www.dafont.com/ again. Similar set-up to Blambot but with various fonts sorted by category. Admittedly, not much in the way of dialogue fonts, but for other uses - on titles, newsapapers, buildings etc that you may need in sequential work, it's a bit more varied.

Quote from: pauljholden on 07 August, 2009, 07:10:30 PM
First thing I noticed is how professional the lettering was. Then today I find out the lettering is by Jim Campbell. I have since revised my opinion.

Not enough to insult me on the ECBT2000AD podcast, eh, Holden? I'll have you know I'm still waiting on Part 3 of Live Bait, which officially makes you the ... SLOWEST ... ARTIST ... EVAH.[/i]

Quoteps the story was really interesting too - some great ideas.

This is true -- I'm assuming that's Kronos City (http://www.myebook.com/index.php?option=ebook&id=14544). I've only seen Chapter One myself thus far, but it certainly does open up with some ideas I haven't seen used before, and has a nice air of faded whimsy that I rather liked.

It actually took quite a long time to come up with a lettering style that suited, so I'm chuffed that you noticed.

Cheers

Jim

Not specifically recommended for practical advice, but thoroughly recommended to anyone with an interest in lettering, or graphic design in general:

Todd Klein's Blog. (http://kleinletters.com/Blog/)

Todd writes a very readable blog in which deals with the erudition you'd expect on subjects like typography and logo design, interspersed with book reviews, recipes, and discourses about things growing in his back yard, all discussed with great wisdom and charm.

Cheers

Jim

Seconded- His Logo dissections are amazing.

At the moment I'm all lettering mad- had to do quite a few strips lately and I've really enjoyed the last few I've done.

Yes, but does it explain why Comic Sans is so crap?

Quote from: Dog Deever on 31 August, 2009, 01:23:14 AMYes, but does it explain why Comic Sans is so crap?

Well that is clearly Dave Gibbons' fault ;)

Just to throw a bit of a curve ball into the discussion-
We use Comic Sans a lot at college for student handouts- we teach kids with a huge range of learning difficulties. One of the big problems with a lot of standard 'easy to read' fonts such as Arial, is the lower case 'a'. A lot of kids with learning difficulties simply don't recognise 'a' for what it is- and there aren't that many fonts with a 'baby a' like Comic Sans.
Sad, but true. Given the likelihood that many of these kids will thus experience difficulties in reading comics, is Comic Sans really such a big deal?

I'm nae trying tae be a cock- it's a genuine question.
The only people who seem to give a toss about it are lettering folks, so to what extent is it merely
* the lettering equivalent of 'using yer pudding spoon tae eat yer soup'?
* random balloonist-generated etiquette to separate those 'in-the-know' from the 'ignorant-unwashed' which has become like a mantra?
* because it's free and anyone with a computer has it?

is Comic Sans really such a big deal?

You are of course right; it's not a big deal. The only thing I have against it is when it's used out of context. By it's very nature it looks a 'jaunty' or 'fun' font, yet I've seen it used in letters firing people.

But in the big scheme of things, no, it's not a big deal.

-Bouwel-

Quote from: Dog Deever on 31 August, 2009, 08:36:33 PM
is Comic Sans really such a big deal?

No ... I'm sorry, it is a big deal. What this is about is the fact that Comic Sans is a poorly proportioned, amateurishly kerned typeface, that manages to look crap at body, headline and poster sizes.

I've already pointed out that you can get a properly designed comic-book font that fills the same requirements in the shape of Tim Sale:

(http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb36/jimcampbell2000/Lettering.png)

If you're looking for a sans-serif font with a simpler 'a' than Arial (another lazy MS knock off, BTW, of Helvetica, this time) then use Futura.

Now, I appreciate that there are people who might suggest that looking down your nose at Comic Sans is the mark of a design snob, but at the end of the day, it's a fucking ugly font that's been designed with a palpable ignorance of the basic rules of font design.

Does it matter? If the answer is "No", then why did we even bother moving on from monospaced fonts to proportional ones? Why make any effort at all to replicate printed typography on the screen, or indeed, in the printed output from home computers?

It's a font that embodies Microsoft's lazy, ugly approach to font design and display, and it deserves to be rejected for that reason.

Cheers

Jim

Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 31 August, 2009, 09:40:55 PM
I've already pointed out that you can get a properly designed comic-book font that fills the same requirements in the shape of Tim Sale:

(http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb36/jimcampbell2000/Lettering.png)

What font are you using here that isn't Comic Sans or Tim Sale?  And where can I find Tim Sale?

Quote from: Odd_Bloke on 01 September, 2009, 12:19:00 AM

Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 31 August, 2009, 09:40:55 PM
I've already pointed out that you can get a properly designed comic-book font that fills the same requirements in the shape of Tim Sale:

(http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb36/jimcampbell2000/Lettering.png)

What font are you using here that isn't Comic Sans or Tim Sale?  And where can I find Tim Sale?

www.timsale1.com/store.html#fonts
www.comicrazy.com/masters/catalog.html?item=comicrazy:ts1

This might help:
http://askville.amazon.com/Tim-Sale-font-Heroes-free--Windows-XP/AnswerViewer.do?requestId=6374612

Quote from: Odd_Bloke on 01 September, 2009, 12:19:00 AM

What font are you using here that isn't Comic Sans or Tim Sale?  And where can I find Tim Sale?

Tim Sale is a font from Comicraft, who are currently doing a special offer on Tim Sale: Upper and Lower Case (they're separate fonts, because Upper uses both character sets to provide variant character shapes), plus Tim Sale Brush (aka 'The Titles Font for Heroes') for a bargain $49 (~£30) -- the second of Emperor's two links takes you to that offer (also, here (http://www.comicrazy.com/comicraft/catalog.html?item=comicrazy:ts1&sid=000145GOwAiZzrAk9423985)).

The font I've used to label the font samples is Bank Gothic (http://new.myfonts.com/fonts/bitstream/bank-gothic/), which will probably be familiar if you've ever watched '24' ...

Cheers!

Jim

Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 01 September, 2009, 08:06:18 AM

Tim Sale is a font from Comicraft, who are currently doing a special offer on Tim Sale: Upper and Lower Case

Correction. The offer above is only for a physical CD with the fonts on.

If you scroll to the bottom of this (http://www.comicbookfonts.com/masters/index.html?sid=0001BuqJJXT8M9cWsU1W500&keywords=fonts/CL) page, then you can get the same deal for $0.95 more, although the international version (which you'll need if you want little things like a pound sign) is a less tempting $99.

Sorry for the misinformation.

Cheers!

Jim

Found a free font for you here, Jim...
http://www.1001fonts.com/font_details.html?font_id=2614 (http://www.1001fonts.com/font_details.html?font_id=2614)
;)

I've posted this before, but I don't care about repeating myself if it helps to stop the Comic Sans epidemic.
(http://bancomicsans.com/image/nocomicsans180x180.gif)
http://bancomicsans.com/home.html (http://bancomicsans.com/home.html)
According to Microsoft: it's "the groovy script font". It's "FUN."

Recently picked up The Marvel Visionaries: Spiderman by John Romita (from the bargain shelf in Travelling Man - just six squid)

It's got some of those amazing early spidey stories, but I wonder if poor sales can be attributed to this HORRIBLE typeface that is used throughout the book? It's ugly, barely legible and offends my eye!

(http://i531.photobucket.com/albums/dd359/anaconda888/lettering001.jpg)

(http://i531.photobucket.com/albums/dd359/anaconda888/lettering002.jpg)

Or is it a work of genius and I'm just a out-dated philistine? Give me THIS anytime!:
(http://i531.photobucket.com/albums/dd359/anaconda888/lettering003.jpg)

Quote from: Dandontdare on 30 September, 2009, 07:08:37 PM
Recently picked up The Marvel Visionaries: Spiderman by John Romita (from the bargain shelf in Travelling Man - just six squid)

It's got some of those amazing early spidey stories, but I wonder if poor sales can be attributed to this HORRIBLE typeface that is used throughout the book? It's ugly, barely legible and offends my eye!

Oh I dunno - I as always a fan of the Ringpin of Crime. Urmm.. hold on. That sounds nasty, like if you broke your ass and they had to pin it back together.

Man, that's fuckin' horrible!

Cheers!

Jim

The first job of a typeface is to communicate effectively.  If it doesn't do that then it may as well be linear B to me.

That it's plain ugly is almost a side issue.  But it is.  It's bloody hideous.

Ugh! Bolt no likee...

I frikkin hate it when they refuse to use u's in the language too.

As in COLOUR amongst others. Its the pre-empt to chav-speak I tells yer! Kolloh!

Recently came across the American spelling of "sulphur" can you guess?

That's right.

"SULFUR"

For funt's sake!

Quote from: KevLev on 07 August, 2009, 04:38:50 PMI'll just throw this out there as an aid to other amateurs looking for a relatively quick and cheap way of getting their own style of lettering as a usable font. The kerning is a bit off here and there - but I managed to make what I think is a passable hand-lettered style font.
http://www.yourfonts.com/ (http://www.yourfonts.com/)
It's really simple - download the template - fill it in - upload it - test it and then pay the $9.95 via paypal to download your font. The font is a truetype .ttf file useable on both mac and pc.

Anyone use this, which seems to do the same thing but for free?

www.fontcapture.com

Free font from Phil Elliott:

www.elliott-design.com/font.html

Quote from: Mike Gloady on 01 October, 2009, 10:15:32 AM
"SULFUR"

As I recall Chris Claremont sometimes spelled it 'Sulfer'.

Todd Klein has written a lot of logos - now there is a tricky type issue:

http://kleinletters.com/LogosTop.html
http://kleinletters.com/Blog/?cat=4

Also - how not to letter comics, from a review of the Twilight manga by the ever reliable Chris Sims:

QuoteUnfortunately, once you actually start reading the book, it all falls apart completely.

And it's all because of the lettering.

That might seem like a small thing to pick on, but that's because like coloring, when lettering is done well, it doesn't draw a lot of attention to itself. As a result, a lot of people who are new to comics or who don't spend a lot of time thinking about them don't understand that lettering is an extremely complex art form unto itself that's evolved over the past 70 years into something that integrates with the art and dialogue to tell a story in a very specific way... when it's good. But like coloring, bad lettering is very, very easy to spot.

And "Twilight" has the worst lettering I have ever seen.

And by Tharg's third nut, it is bad!! Anyone going to Hi-Ex should buy Bolt a pint, thanks to his hard work it is less easy to sneak terrible lettering into even a small press comic. Scarily, this is not only professional work but it is going to be one of the biggest selling graphic novels of the year (after Watchmen I assume).

www.comicsalliance.com/2010/03/18/twilight-manga-review/

Now picture this: Jim Campbell running down to the book store, fighting off all the Twihards (Twitards?) and emerging with the tome in his sweaty fist, just so he can wallow in the terrible text.

Quote from: Mike Gloady on 01 October, 2009, 10:15:32 AM
Recently came across the American spelling of "sulphur" can you guess?

That's right.

"SULFUR"

For funt's sake!

I haven't quite understood your 'problem' with Americans, Gloady. Seems every chance you get you're bagging on us for some silly reason. Penis envy?

Quote from: Emperor on 23 March, 2010, 03:05:40 AM
And by Tharg's third nut, it is bad!!

(http://www.canucklehead.ca/_Media/unseen_large.jpeg)

That's horrible.

Oh dear LORD! That's DREADFUL lettering in the Twilight book!

And what's up with the transparent word balloons? That's always looked like a rookie mistake to me. It. Doesn't. Work.

I am consistently amazed at the low standards some folks sincerely believe are acceptable for lettering jobs.

Insomnia's Martin Conaghan writes a bit on logo design (and goes into cover design too):

www.bleedingcool.com/2010/04/29/pond-life-by-martin-conaghan-2-ulterior-motif/

If anyone thinks logos themselves are worth a thread on their own then feel free to start one.

New free font from Blambot, and it's a rather nice dialogue font, available in the usual Regular, Italic and Bold flavours:

Unmasked (http://www.blambot.com/font_unmasked.shtml)

Cheers!

Jim

To Jim & other letterers,

I was wondering, how do you manage all your fonts?

Do you use a font management program to keep the system/free/paid for/copyrighted fonts separate?

Or do you keep your system free of any fonts you can't use professionally?


I'm sure I've downloaded a random font or two and might not be able to find out their licenses anymore.  I'll probably need to reinstall my OS at some stage and start from scratch.

Brian

Quote from: briantm on 04 July, 2010, 01:49:30 PM
Do you use a font management program to keep the system/free/paid for/copyrighted fonts separate?

I'll be honest, it's 16 years since I started working in print design, and I've never found a font management utility that didn't disrupt my workflow to the extent that any supposed benefits were completely outweighed.

QuoteOr do you keep your system free of any fonts you can't use professionally?

Basically, this.

I suspect that there are many legacy typefaces lurking on my HD that I yoinked from design jobs that crossed my desk over the years. Lettering fonts, however, are a small subset of the total number of installed fonts on this system, and I buy them one at a time, so I have relatively little trouble keeping track of them.

I have a very limited tracking system (beyond having receipts for the paid-for ones) which is that I only use the Username/Library/Fonts directory for anything I install and before I drop the fonts in there, I use the OSX Finder Labels to colour code bought fonts (purple) and free fonts (green).

All my free lettering fonts come from Blambot, so all I have to do is e-mail Nate if it looks like I'm going to use one on a commercial job and he sends me an invoice for a commercial license, which I pay through PayPal, and then change the colour coding of the font. Mars Police, for example, which I used for the logo on Turning Tiger (http://www.myebook.com/index.php?option=ebook&id=22822), is free for non-commercial purposes, but I had to pony up thirty bucks to use it on a paying job.

Cheers!

Jim

Quotewhich I used for the logo on Turning Tiger,

Oh my! That looks like an excellent book!

Quote from: Richmond Clements on 04 July, 2010, 06:42:39 PM
Oh my! That looks like an excellent book!

It does indeed. Everyone should check out the ebook version linked above for a cracking good read. Part Two is, I'm led to believe, fairly imminent.

Cheers!

Jim

Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 04 July, 2010, 07:16:19 PM

Quote from: Richmond Clements on 04 July, 2010, 06:42:39 PM
Oh my! That looks like an excellent book!

It does indeed. Everyone should check out the ebook version linked above for a cracking good read. Part Two is, I'm led to believe, fairly imminent.

Cheers!

Jim

Yup- I sent my afterword and the rather lovely forward from a Big Name last week.

I have no idea of now right or wrong this is, or indeed if it says anything new, I'm quite sure there's a few folk round here that know more about this than than me BUT might be of interest?

From The Beat the thoughts of Bryan Lee O'Malley on lettering

http://www.comicsbeat.com/2010/07/07/omalleys-lettering-lessons/ (http://www.comicsbeat.com/2010/07/07/omalleys-lettering-lessons/)

Quote from: Colin_YNWA on 07 July, 2010, 08:26:11 PM
I have no idea of now right or wrong this is, or indeed if it says anything new, I'm quite sure there's a few folk round here that know more about this than than me BUT might be of interest?

Absolutely agree with all of that. In fact, it's one of the key things to look for as a letterer -- where does the reader's eye need to go, and does the eye naturally follow that path. If it does, make sure your balloon placement doesn't bugger that up; if not then can the balloon placement draw the reader's eye regardless?

We actually touched on this here (http://www.2000adonline.com/forum/index.php/topic,28834.15.html).

Cheers!

Jim

joe kubert.
One of the best fonts out there for non special fx comic work.
Expensive but worth it

Quote from: chaingunchimp on 08 July, 2010, 04:07:33 PM
joe kubert.
One of the best fonts out there for non special fx comic work.
Expensive but worth it

I have Joe Kubert, but anywhere I would have used it, I've taken to using Blambot's Hometown Hero (http://www.blambot.com/font_hometownhero.shtml) instead because it has a similar feel and more extensive auto-ligatures for swapping out double letters. I have to admit, I'm mainly just a sucker for the double T...

(http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb36/jimcampbell2000/Lettering-1.png)

Cheers!

Jim

lol.
yep i see what you mean.
is indeed quite nice.

Does anyone know of any decent resources or books on the full comic production workflow? I'm going to be working on a five page submission in the near future and don't have much experience of processing inked artwork. The process, as I understand it will be:

Writing>Pencils>Inks>Lettering>Colours.

My issue is that the pencils and inks will be done traditionally then scanned and sent to me. I'll do some rough balloon positions and send it back for final inks. They'll then be sent back to me, I'll letter them and then send them on to the colourist.

I haven't worked with such a large team of people yet, so it's a bit daunting.

Plus, on the colouring side of things, I'm not sure what I should be doing as any SFX will have to be sent uncoloured.

Quote from: chilipenguin on 12 August, 2010, 06:28:41 PM
My issue is that the pencils and inks will be done traditionally then scanned and sent to me. I'll do some rough balloon positions and send it back for final inks. They'll then be sent back to me, I'll letter them and then send them on to the colourist.

Ask them why they want to do it this way. Lettering before colours complicates your job and the colourist's unnecessarily.

Cheers

Jim

I thought that seemed a bit odd but like I say, this is the first time I've been involved in a five stage submission. I'll say to the guy who's putting it all together but he seems to be under the impression that this is the correct way of doing things. Haven't heard anything from the colourist yet so he may speak up too.

It's a ways down the line yet anyway so hopefully it'll be resolved before it gets down to the lettering.

Chili, Listen to Jim. You really don't want to be lettering 'before' the colouring. Seems pointless to me.

Also, if the page is coloured- then you get to see what colour SFX you need- if any.

The only thing I can think of is if the intention is to prepare the lettering as a seperate overlay.

This is something I've done on occasion, and a trick some folks I work with sometimes use to work out a good layout on the fly.

Basically, the lettering is done over the top of the art in Illustrator and exported as a PNG file.

It's a faff, not ideal, and I'm not a huge fan of doing things that way. But it does happen.

Just throwin' that out there as a possibility.

Looks like the guy has spoken to someone in the know independent of myself and has since decided that it will be easier to do the colours before the letters. Weight off my mind but he still may want to send me the pencils so I can lay down some rough guides. We'll wait and see. Looking forward to this though. The lettering train seems to be gathering momentum all the time.

Cheers for all the advice guys.

Does anyone of a simple way of denoting silence? I have a script where the character is struggling to talk but can't make himself heard. I know the manga inspired solution is to have a balloon with an elipsis but are there any other methods of expressing this?

Quote from: chilipenguin on 23 August, 2010, 12:01:20 PM
Does anyone of a simple way of denoting silence? I have a script where the character is struggling to talk but can't make himself heard. I know the manga inspired solution is to have a balloon with an elipsis but are there any other methods of expressing this?

Either a Manga-style lone ellipsis, which is becoming increasingly acceptable in Western comics, or even a completely empty balloon might work...

Cheers!

Jim

Ah groovy. Think I'll just go with that. Should be an interesting one. Plenty of telepathy and thought balloons to give me a challenge.

Another question (a lot on at the moment). I know this is going back to basics but you'll forgive my ignorance. When dealing with full bleed art in AI, do you have the art extend past the edge of the document or do you extend the size of the document to include the additional space needed for the bleed?

For example, I'm working on an A4 story, the black background bleeds off all four sides. What I have done is increase the size of the art to 216mmx303mm (3mm bleed on each side) but the document itself remains at A4 size.

Is this correct? I'm struggling to get my head around bleeds etc, especially as I seem to only be working with A4 art.

Help me Obi Wan Kenobi, you're my only hope.

Quote from: chilipenguin on 23 August, 2010, 05:36:45 PM
For example, I'm working on an A4 story, the black background bleeds off all four sides. What I have done is increase the size of the art to 216mmx303mm (3mm bleed on each side) but the document itself remains at A4 size.

Right... this is the bane of the letterer's life because many, many artists don't seem able to grasp this, either. To all intents and purposes, the actual page size (in this case A4) is completely irrelevant if the publication has bleed.

You only need two measurements, and these should come from the printer: the full bleed size, and the safe type (AKA live) area. Your document should be the whole, full bleed size. If the printer says there's 3mm bleed then your document should be 216x303mm and the artwork should sit exactly on it. If it's 5mm bleed then your document should be 220x307mm.

All panel borders, speech balloons, anything that doesn't want to get cut off by the finished page edge (when your oversize page gets cut down to A4) should go inside the Live/Safe Type area.

You will frequently find that when you fit the full bleed dimensions to the edge of your AI document, the artist has drawn the panel borders outside the Live area. This is not your problem, and there is no easy fix for it. All you can do is ensure that the lettering, at least, stays inside the Live area -- the art will have to take its chances.

Cheers!

Jim

Right, that all makes sense. Thing is, the guy I'm doing this for doesn't seem to know the required bleeds or trims. He has asked me if there is a British standard for these things (I'm assuming no). Will I have to ask him to check with his printer (I'm guessing so)?

Quote from: chilipenguin on 23 August, 2010, 06:19:44 PM
Right, that all makes sense. Thing is, the guy I'm doing this for doesn't seem to know the required bleeds or trims. He has asked me if there is a British standard for these things (I'm assuming no). Will I have to ask him to check with his printer (I'm guessing so)?

It really is dependent on the printer. If you assume 3mm, you probably won't go far wrong. If I'm creating artwork with bleed, I usually allow 5mm on the grounds that too much is just extra artwork that'll get cut off, but too little might be a problem. Most competent print finishers should be able to work with 3mm, though.

It's the Safe Type/Live area which can vary widely. If he really can't give you one, I'd assume that it's 18mm in from the edge of your full bleed document (15mm in from the page edge when it's cut down) on every side and stick to that. Just make it clear (assuming he can't or won't give you the info) that you're giving it your best guess and you shouldn't be held responsible if there is a problem when it reaches pre-press.

Cheers!

Jim

As always Jim, you are a legend.

Isn't he just?

This EXACT issue just came up with something I'm doing. I'm fair impressed!

Okay, another one for you. I'm doing a page just now that bleeds off the top of the page plus the left and right sides. The art extends past the safe area (right out to the bleed in one area) in the top panel while in the bottom panel the art is squeezed in the top right of the frame with white space bleeding out the right and bottom. I've asked about bleeds/trims etc and been told that the artist doesn't usually work to these (?) and to just keep the lettering within a 10x15 live area.

What should I do about sizing the page? I've sized it to the 11x17 already but I don't really know if that's going to work or not.

Quote from: chilipenguin on 02 September, 2010, 04:38:39 PM
What should I do about sizing the page? I've sized it to the 11x17 already but I don't really know if that's going to work or not.

Stick it on the page template and letter it. I practically gave myself an ulcer worrying about this stuff at the start, but if  you've notified the editor that the art doesn't sit on the template properly, and they don't care, then neither should you.

I will confess to being astonished how cavalier many artists are to this basic nuts and bolts stuff, like getting the fucking page size correct. I assume that this is because other people have been expected to fix this for them after the fact and they've never had an editor with sufficient balls to punt the job back at them with a note to do it again properly.

Get the best fit you can on the template -- make sure your lettering stays inside the Safe area, and be done with it. Not worth losing any sleep over...

Cheers!

Jim

Thanks Jim. That's pretty much what I was going to do anyway I think. Just wondering if I should maybe just resize it to include a 3-5mm bleed anyway just to be on the safe side.

Thought this would be the best place to ask this. I finished lettering some pages the other day and sent them back to the writer but he would like a PDF with all the pages plus a cover he sent me. What's the best way of creating said PDF? Should I be using the final TIFFs that I sent him or should I export these as JPEGS first?

Quote from: chilipenguin on 12 September, 2010, 11:12:49 PM
Thought this would be the best place to ask this. I finished lettering some pages the other day and sent them back to the writer but he would like a PDF with all the pages plus a cover he sent me. What's the best way of creating said PDF? Should I be using the final TIFFs that I sent him or should I export these as JPEGS first?

I think you'll find that most PDF software will use JPEG compression on the images regardless, so I don't think it will make much difference. Try doing just a couple of pages with TIFFs and a couple with JPEGs and see if there's a noticeable difference in file size. If there isn't, use the TIFFs and save yourself the extra step.

Cheers

Jim

Cheers for that Jim, but what software should I be using? I don't have much experience creating PDFs from multiple files so I'm not sure of the best way of doing it.

Hey. Just wanted to bump my last question as I still don't know which software I should be using to create PDFs. It's not something I have done before (apart from in Quark). Could I import the files as pages into an Indesign doc and export that as a PDF?

Quote from: chilipenguin on 13 September, 2010, 04:53:19 PMCould I import the files as pages into an Indesign doc and export that as a PDF?

Yes. Absolutely. I'm assuming you're on Windows, but if you are using a Mac, any programme with a print dialogue will generate a PDF. I use the much-underrated Preview for this all the time. Open one image file in preview. Open the sidebar, drop the rest of your pages in, then print to PDF

But otherwise, yes: InDesign and output a PDF file.

Cheers!

Jim

Thanks Jim. Yeah, I ended up going with Indesign. I used Quark quite a lot at uni but haven't got to grips with Adobe's answer to it yet. Quite easy to use as it goes (so far it's just been sat on my hard drive, gathering dust). Thanks for the help.

Quote from: chilipenguin on 13 September, 2010, 05:21:30 PM
Thanks Jim. Yeah, I ended up going with Indesign. I used Quark quite a lot at uni but haven't got to grips with Adobe's answer to it yet. Quite easy to use as it goes (so far it's just been sat on my hard drive, gathering dust). Thanks for the help.

I think there's an option in the ID preferences to use Quark keyboard shortcuts, which might lessen the pain of transition.

Cheers!

Jim

Wow! You really DO learn something new every day:

This hint (http://rwillustrator.blogspot.com/2006/12/ask-mordy-stroking-text.html) means that you can move the stroke to behind the fill (as described in my lettering guide) on live, editable text.

Ordinarily, I would have to convert the text to outlines, but this:

(http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb36/jimcampbell2000/SFX-1.jpg)

is all live text.

I'll have a further play with this and then see if I can incorporate it into an updated guide -- I want to add in a section about masking SFX so that they appear to be 'behind' elements of the artwork.

Cheers!

Jim

Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 21 September, 2010, 09:25:57 PM


I'll have a further play with this and then see if I can incorporate it into an updated guide -- I want to add in a section about masking SFX so that they appear to be 'behind' elements of the artwork.

Cheers!

LEGEND!

That 'masking' thing is something I do by exporting lettering ito Photoshop as an overlay and manually cutting bits out. It's a neat looking trick, but my method is a real faff, and quite laborious.

An updated guide gets my vote!

I'm working on pages just now that have a black caption box with a white stroke and white text, as well as a couple that have a blue fill/dark blue stroke with black text. What should I be doing regarding overprint? I'm confused...

Quote from: chilipenguin on 24 September, 2010, 04:10:41 PM
I'm working on pages just now that have a black caption box with a white stroke and white text, as well as a couple that have a blue fill/dark blue stroke with black text. What should I be doing regarding overprint? I'm confused...

Print or web? If it's web, nothing needs to overprint -- trapping specifically concerns how the four different printing plates affect each other when generating separations.

If it's print, then in your example of a black caption box with a white stroke and white text, nothing should overprint. A white stroke set to overprint won't appear at all (if the other colours overprint it, then the paper won't show through, which is all that white is, after all).

Blue fill, dark blue stroke, black text -- the box should have no overprints (although if the stroke was black then it should overprint). The black text should be set to Overprint Fill.

Cheers!

Jim

Cheers Jim. The end goal is for it to reach the print stages so I just want to make sure the file is ready, if and when that happens.

Quote from: chilipenguin on 24 September, 2010, 04:44:58 PM
Cheers Jim. The end goal is for it to reach the print stages so I just want to make sure the file is ready, if and when that happens.

Eminently sensible.

Cheers!

Jim

Is there a trick to telling how big or small text will be on the finished page without printing it? My printer is on the fritz and I am working on something that is going to NYCC. Thing is, I haven't received the coloured inks yet, just the pencils. The words are down already so all I have to do is throw on some balloons and a couple of SFX, but I am worried the text will be to big or too small and I don't have a means of checking.

The page dimensions are 6.5"x10.25". The font I am using for dialogue is at 9pt.

Quote from: chilipenguin on 05 October, 2010, 10:54:23 AM
Is there a trick to telling how big or small text will be on the finished page without printing it?

--snip--

The page dimensions are 6.5"x10.25". The font I am using for dialogue is at 9pt.

Once upon a time, 6pt was 6pt was 6pt but the OTF format seems to have changed that, with the height of the character being defined proportional to its width, making "9pt" pretty meaningless.

There's no trick to it, however... always work in AI at 100% of printed size. That way, you can keep a sample of text you've already seen in print on the side and size your working text by eye against that sample. I usually have 6pt Tim Sale or 5.5pt HushHush on the side, which is compact but readable, and then judge any other font I choose for dialogue against that.

Cheers!

Jim

Quote from: chilipenguin on 05 October, 2010, 10:54:23 AM
Is there a trick to telling how big or small text will be on the finished page without printing it?

Get a scan of a lettered page at the size your work will be seeing print, and then paste it onto the page you're working on.  Enlarge/reduce it so it fits and then just letter on top of it adjusting the height/width/kerning/leading to match the scanned page's lettering.  Delete the page layer when you're happy enough and off you go.

Does anyone know how to force-justify text in photoshop CS?   It's really only an issue with caption boxes, but I never could figure out how to do it.

Quote from: Professah Byah on 05 October, 2010, 02:02:42 PM
Does anyone know how to force-justify text in photoshop CS?   It's really only an issue with caption boxes, but I never could figure out how to do it.

Surely one of these options will do the job...?

(http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb36/jimcampbell2000/Type_Para_Palette.png)

I'll spare you the Photoshop lecture, but I will ask why you're looking to justify the text? Just align left and let the right edge hang ragged, it's infinitely preferable to the forced word-spacing you'll get justifying the text.

Cheers!

Jim

I've seen those little icons before so they are in my version of CS, but they do nothing at all.  PS doesn't react to them being clicked, and the separate justification window dialogue you can open with a pull-down menu just above those icons won't let me alter any of the settings, telling me any numerical value I enter is invalid.  As I say, baffling for an art app Luddite like meself.

Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 05 October, 2010, 02:12:30 PM
I will ask why you're looking to justify the text?

I get the occasional bit of boxed text that could do with just a wee nudge to not stand out visually, and it's a personal preference, but I hate to split words across two lines with a hyphen - functional, certainly, but I don't much like the look of it.

Quote from: Professah Byah on 05 October, 2010, 02:31:23 PM
I've seen those little icons before so they are in my version of CS, but they do nothing at all.  PS doesn't react to them being clicked, and the separate justification window dialogue you can open with a pull-down menu just above those icons won't let me alter any of the settings, telling me any numerical value I enter is invalid.  As I say, baffling for an art app Luddite like meself.

Ah. I've never actually used these functions, so I assumed that they worked like they do in AI and ID. I'll have a play if I get a minute (hah!) and see if I can discover anything meaningful...

QuoteI get the occasional bit of boxed text that could do with just a wee nudge to not stand out visually, and it's a personal preference, but I hate to split words across two lines with a hyphen - functional, certainly, but I don't much like the look of it.

I see... at the risk of making this The Photoshop Lecture, I think you're bumping up against the limitations of Photoshop's typesetting abilities. Any page of my lettering you see has hyphenation off and has had every line turned by hand, with a combination of tracking, kerning and horizontal scale used to bring any errant lines back into something resembling a proportionate length.

Occasionally, there'll just be fuckin' long word that refuses to play ball and sometimes you just have to let the bastard go, but it's worth keeping in mind that it is acceptable to break any word that already has a hyphen in it ("double-barrelled") or any compound word that consists of two recognisable English words ("horseradish" to "horse-radish").

Cheers!

Jim

Cheers for the suggestions. I think I am just worried as it's a page size I haven't worked with before. I think I'll try and get a scan of page, load it into AI and check the size against that.

Thanks again.

Quote from: Professah Byah on 05 October, 2010, 02:31:23 PM
I've seen those little icons before so they are in my version of CS, but they do nothing at all.  PS doesn't react to them being clicked

Are you by any chance clicking on your document with the text tool and just typing/pasting your text?

Try selecting the text tool and going click-hold-drag to create a text box. The justify options should then respect the borders of the box you've drawn (at least, that's what happens in CS3).

Cheers!

Jim

6 Free Comic Fonts for Commercial Use That are Awesome:

www.optimumwound.com/6-free-comic-fonts-for-commercial-use-that-are-awesome.htm

Can anyone suggest any inspiration for telepathy balloons? I have used the cat's whiskers in the corners style so far but it looks a bit bland to me.

Quote from: chilipenguin on 06 October, 2010, 05:45:17 PM
Can anyone suggest any inspiration for telepathy balloons? I have used the cat's whiskers in the corners style so far but it looks a bit bland to me.

I saw some just yesterday actually! Each was basically the usual oval but with 4 spikey bits at each 'corner' (except ovals don't have corners. 4 points diagonally opposite from each other is what I mean) so it might be the same as the cat whiskers thing you were speaking of.

Each bubble also had a coloured bubble 'shadow' with the same pointy bits. (In the case of the comic I read, one was yellow, one green depending on who the telepath was communicating with I guess.) By that I mean it was behind the main telepathic bubble but slightly off centre, to the right.

The comic in question is Amalgam: JLX. (Not a great story actually. I got it in a kind of packet lucky dip of 2 packets of 3 for a quid which seemed a good deal.)

My understanding was they have a kind of equals sign on its edge at each of the four corners (and yes there are corners if you go with Jim's suggestion to use a kind of rounded rectangle or a more rectangular oval ;) ) and no tail (no tails), which is the cat's whiskers version mentioned.

Anyway, if in doubt check Blambot, who have an excellent page on Comic Book Grammar and Tradition - print it off and keep it handy:

QuoteTELEPATHIC BALLOONS
When a character is speaking telepathically the dialogue is italicized. Old-school telepathy balloons look like a thought balloon except they have breath marks on opposing corners. These days, many letterers opt to abandon the traditional style and get creative with these.

www.blambot.com/grammar.shtml

Cheers for the suggestions. I usually keep Blambot's lettering guidelines handy. Invaluable resource. Just wondering though (another question, I know, I aplogise), can anyone suggest how to create the dark balloon in the bottom right in the pic below? I want to try a hybrid of that and the one on the bottom left but I can't work out how it's made.

(http://blambot.com/images/gram_telepathy.jpg)

EDIT: I imagine it's in the stroke options but I can't find a brush that looks right.

Not so much a discussion subject, but I got my first paying lettering gig today. Huzzah! Still working out the details but should be starting later today or tomorrow.

Go me!

Go you indeed. Well done!

Well done Chili - don't forget us when you're rich and famous!

Bravo Chili! It's a great feeling, innit!

Quote from: Daveycandlish on 14 October, 2010, 09:12:05 PM
Well done Chili - don't forget us when you're rich and famous!

No promises  :P

Quite psyched up for this. With an artist I've worked with before so clearly I've done something right to get the call up for this.

Oh and HDE, you're right. Tis an awesome feeling.

Not sure of the best place to post this, so I thought I'd put it here as it relates to fonts.

The BBC has an interesting (and a trifle tardy) article about Comic Sans:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-11582548

Having a bit of an issue in Illustrator. I'm trying to export some pages in TIFF format, but two of the eight pages seem to change size during the process. The artboard in an A4 but when I export, one page becomes almost square (3408px by 3495px) and another page adds about an inch of white space to the bottom.

The effect is that the art remains in the same place but the white space on the page is increased. I'm confused why this is only happening to a couple of the pages.

I've tried everything I can think of, including checking for any hidden masks that extend past the page boundaries and I've come up blank.

Any ideas?

I've had this problem in the past as well.

Sounds like you're checking for problem elements that might bloat the file's size. It's always worth hitting CTRL + A ('show all') to highlight anything you might have missed. Sometimes stray points and unused text locations will show up outside the artboard.

Possibly this isn't the problem - but it bears checking again.

Cheers for that. My theory was correct but it took your simple yet elegant solution (CTRL+A) to find the stray points. All good now!

Glad to be of assistance, Chili :)

I've had a devil of a time with lettering projects just lately. These simple checks really help to forestall a lot of frustration.

Nicked from Jim (http://clintflickerlettering.blogspot.com/2010/11/magic-wands-har-har.html), a series of interviews with letterers, first one here:

http://www.newsarama.com/comics/letterers-lexicon-1-steve-wands-101112.html

Any small press letterers out there willing and able to contribute to my time travelling, demon hunting Japanese warrior strip? I'm trying to get a collection together for Christmas, so if anyone can take on an 8 page strip to be done in the next week - let me know!

Locustofdeath, Legendary Shark, Christov and Van Dom have written a series of scripts and myself, elchivo, James Corcoran and Flipr-Mk2 have drawn them up for the collection, with Steven Denton doing the cover. I've already got Jim Campbell and chilipenguin doing some so you'd be in good company

No pay, but you do get a comp copy - think of it as an extra annual from Santa!

Quote from: chilipenguin on 20 October, 2010, 07:07:51 PM
The BBC has an interesting (and a trifle tardy) article about Comic Sans:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-11582548

Missed this!

I too despise Comic Sans beyond all reason, but then I am a frustrated graphic designer with too much time on my hands.

Just a quick query to lob into the forums for discussion.

I've been exporting lettered pages for a short project recently, and found I get inconsistent results regarding on-screen lettering definition.

I've exported the files as 300dpi TIFFs with the anti-aliasing box unchecked, and this leaves me with a typeface with a jagged edge when viewed up close.

Exporting the same files with the anti-aliasing option checked, this problem disappears.

Now, I'm wondering - is this jagged edge to the type going to translate to the printed pages? Because on the basis of my meagre knowledge of printing computer generated art, I don't think it will. I'm tempted to export with anti-aliasing switched on, but I believe this may cause the lettering to print as a muddy mess.

Thoughts, anybody?

The Revenge of Comic Sans (http://seedmagazine.com/content/article/the_revenge_of_comic_sans/): New research suggests that less-legible, less-elegant fonts might actually promote better recall of information.

I'm off to hide.

Quote from: Emperor on 17 January, 2011, 09:08:18 PM
The Revenge of Comic Sans (http://seedmagazine.com/content/article/the_revenge_of_comic_sans/): New research suggests that less-legible, less-elegant fonts might actually promote better recall of information.

As soon as I heard that reported on the Today programme a few days ago, I know someone would say "Aha! Comic Sans! I told you so!"

The thing is, I've never argued that Comic Sans should be rejected because it's not readable. Quite clearly, it is readable, which means that this argument doesn't actually apply to Comic Sans. I've always argued that Comic Sans should be rejected because it's fucking ugly and amateurish. The kerning, in particular, is appalling. It's aesthetically unpleasing, it's not illegible.

Cheers

Jim

Well, yes. I thought the whole point of comic sans was its legibility?

Quote from: M.I.K. on 17 January, 2011, 10:39:27 PM
Well, yes. I thought the whole point of comic sans was its legibility?

If you're addressing me, can I ask whether you've read the linked article?

Cheers

Jim

The theory in the article seems sound to me apart from the example of Comic Sans. CS is a very legible (if ugly) font so surely something like a cursive font would be less legible and thus more useful in this regard?

Confession time:

I've been known to use Comic Sans. Seriously - it has its uses!

I fully agree that it's a bit unsightly, and I've never used it as a straight-out font for comics work. But I do occasionally use it as a fix for instances where I'm called upon to use the odd lower case letter, for names like McManus, McCarthy, that sort of thing - even the little 'd' in HdE.

In all other instances, i'd say 'take that dog out and shoot it', though. And Jim's right, the kerning is awful.

Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 17 January, 2011, 11:15:21 PM
If you're addressing me, can I ask whether you've read the linked article?

Not really and yes, in that order. Just think it's bizarre that they used comic sans as an example when the blatantly obvious reason its used so widely is because its the exact opposite of what they're saying it is.

Gah! Can anyone tell me how to stop these bloody lines from appearing when I export pages as tiffs? Since moving over to my new laptop, it's started doing it and for the life of me, I can't make it stop.

(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d42/chilipenguin/Capture.jpg)
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d42/chilipenguin/Capture2.jpg)

The lines are not in the original art files. They seem to be cropping up in the export process. For clarity, here are the export settings. Files are being exported in CMYK and are destined for print.

(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d42/chilipenguin/Capture3.jpg)

Help!

Have you tried a different anti-aliasing setting? Also: are they visible in Photoshop if you zoom in on the exported TIFF?

Cheers

Jim

Not fully familiar with that dialogue box.

Are you exporting from a layered file?

I prefer to flatten files, adjust the resolution within Photoshop and then save as a tiff.

If you've pasted those speech bubbles from Illustrator, have you tried rasterizing them before saving as a tiff.

But be sure to save as or have a safe duplicate file. I've made the mistake many a time of flattening files and losing the layered version.

The first batch I exported were done without converting the text to outlines or flattening. It also had no anti-aliasing turned on.

This batch have the text converted to outlines and the text anti-aliasing option selected.

Oh, and they do show up when viewed in PS. The first batch were much more visible though.

Quote from: chilipenguin on 26 January, 2011, 06:48:31 PM
Oh, and they do show up when viewed in PS. The first batch were much more visible though.

OK... next question: have you checked the original files of the placed images? Open the artwork in Photoshop and make sure that it's a flattened TIFF. Delete any additional channels that may be in there. Re-save and then delete the artwork on your lettering file and place the new artwork file.

Cheers!

Jim

Jim - I went back and made sure the original TIFF was flattened, created a new file which I then imported into AI. I'm still getting the same issue. Weirdly, the lines seem to be appearing in the same places, and when I experimented by moving the balloons slightly, the lines remain stationary. I just don't understand it. Other files I have worked on don't seem to have the same issues...

Corrupt file/layer?

After going back and checking, it has been happening with other files since I started using my new laptop. I'm going to check out the update situation with my version of Illustrator and see if that solves anything.

Haud the bus (as they say here in the frozen North)! After installing updates, lo and behold, all the lines have gone. Thank Grudd for that!

Told you.

And there was me assuming you were using Photoshop. Dur.

(Still on CS2 round here. Yet to load my CS5.)

My blog is finally back in action! Sunday Surgery returns to discuss the limits of letterer's role, and the dark art of trapping: http://j.mp/deEIer (http://j.mp/deEIer)

Now that I've finished lettering True Grit: Mean Business (http://www.truegritmovie.com/intl/uk/dimenovel/)* in seven languages, my schedule looks a bit calmer and the updates should be more frequent and feature some actual, well, content.

Thanks to everyone for their forbearance and patience.

Cheers!

Jim

*Another plug? Yes, I have no shame.

Well, slowly but surely we're limping back up to full speed on the blog, which means it must be time for Sunday Surgery...

This week brings a quick Q&A thanks to this board's very own Conor 'Uncle Fester' Boyle, who has some pertinent enquiries about sizing, spacing, and some lettering conventions. Check it out here (http://clintflickerlettering.blogspot.com/) if any of that sounds like it might be of interest.

Cheers!

Jim

With apologies for an entirely Mac-centric topic, today's Surgery post asks whether you've ever looked at the capabilities of OS X's Automator application. I hadn't, and that turns out to have been a mistake that's been costing me time and making my life just a fraction more difficult than it needed to be. See if the little chap could be helping you, too, in today's blog post. (http://j.mp/deEIer)

Cheers!

Jim

Not lettering-specific by any stretch of the imagination, Sunday Surgery (http://j.mp/deEIer) on my blog has a quick overview of my newfound enthusiasm of the Pomodoro technique for time management.

Cheers!

Jim

Interesting piece on word balloon placement in early comics:

http://comicscomicsmag.com/2011/03/awkward-word-balloon-placement-in-early-comics.html

Did I see somewhere a guide to creating SFX that acts as a single object but is still, in fact, a text element? By which I mean, SFX that you can go back into and edit as you would any other piece of text but that retains the attributes of an 'add shape' element.

Quote from: chilipenguin on 19 May, 2011, 05:45:21 PM
Did I see somewhere a guide to creating SFX that acts as a single object but is still, in fact, a text element? By which I mean, SFX that you can go back into and edit as you would any other piece of text but that retains the attributes of an 'add shape' element.

Yes, yes, you did. (http://clintflickerlettering.blogspot.com/2010/11/wednesday-surgery-ahem.html)

Cheers!

Jim

I knew I'd seen it somewhere. As always, if in doubt, check with Jim.

Cheers!