The Political Thread

[Old Tankie]

Yes, Jim, but I can vote for an MP who belongs to a party and if that party gets enough MPs it's able to implement its manifesto.  That doesn't apply to the EU as the largest block of UK elected MEPs can be easily outvoted by people I did not have the opportunity to vote for.  The only way the EU system is democratic is if it has a political union basically what it says on the tin!

Yes, IndigoPrime, I am in favour of massive reform to the UK electoral system.  Scrap the Lords and introduce PR to Westminster.

[NapalmKev]

I wouldn't normally speak in favour of something like the House of Lords but it's worth noting that they have stopped some major shenanigans being implemented by Governments, past and present. Without a counterbalance the ruling Government could get away with pretty much anything!

Cheers

[Old Tankie]

Fair point.

[COMMANDO FORCES]

All you have to do is watch and listen to numerous news outlets to garner all the info that you need to help you decide. Probably the best place, from the months that I've been listening to all the info, is the radio, were they actually push the facts more!

As for me, I'm wanting.............out, as I can NEVER see the EU reforming, no matter how much people wish it to reform. If our country votes to stay in, it'll be like a blank cheque that gives them the power to do what they like. But guess what, I won't be all over here or Facebook crying that it didn't go my way, I'll just say, that's democracy in action, albeit for the last time for the UK and get on with my life.

We can all list the pro's and cons on in and out but it boils down to a few things for me. If you truly believe in democracy then there is only one way that you can vote and seeing as many countries don't have democracy and their people have absolutely no say, I think it's hilarious that we would want to head in the opposite direction. Remember when other countries voted against something that the EU wanted, they were forced to keep voting, until they did what the EU wanted.

Obviously people can point out that Westminster is undemocratic but at least we can vote them out every 5 years and seeing as Scotland did just that last time, then you can't use the old bollocks that your vote doesn't count EVER AGAIN!

The EU keeps us safe, does it really. I thought NATO (mainly the power of the Great Satan) and governments behaving how they should has kept us safe since WWII. Obviously Yugoslavia and the horrendous things that happened there have been forgotten, which is handy! By the way, I saw part of that first hand, I only mention that, as certain people like to point out that some stuff may be hearsay and I think I believed what my eyes showed me on that one!

As for the continent now, I'm amazed at the lack of posts on here about it seemingly ripping itself apart over the, oh no John is going to mention it, so he must be a bigot or a racist! Immigration is ripping countries apart but the news is seemingly keeping most of it off the TV. Fences going up, borders being closed, bridges with border guards on, right wing groups rising up, rapes and sex offences, etc... Not really seen much about this on the telly and especially on here!

It's as if certain people due to the way they accuse people of being a racist or bigots have scared people into shutting up. You know, the right on PC brigade who even scared the police and councils in certain parts of the country that had those sex crimes. I say shame on those people, as a crime is a crime but worrying that you would be accused of something by those people...... but I digress!

The EU is paralysed, as yet again, one country the other day voted down certain measures and so that was that but hey ho, if we give it time the EU will be the thing we all hope it could be!

The trade deal (TTIP) which has been discussed here a few time, isn't that what the EU but mostly, America want and will be bad for us all but that's okay, as the EU is great and will get us little people a great deal.

Now I could list all the things that people say we will lose, working time directive, minimum wage, human rights, etc.... but I doubt very much that these things would truly change much and if they did, guess what. I think I could use my vote to push out that government and then Jezza can save the day!

Now I'm not saying Europe is bad, I enjoy going to certain parts of it on holiday, I'm not rich enough to see all of it just yet and there's one of the common mistakes. Just because you don't like the EU doesn't mean you don't like Europe. I wonder when some people will get this into their heads.

As for all those ex-pats in Spain, it's common knowledge that if Spain pushed them all out then that part of the country would go under. I got all that from the radio when they interviewed numerous people from those areas, including local government officials.

I'm sure many of you here will vote to stay in and guess what, good on you, as that is your right and I wouldn't want you to change your vote. I'm just putting down what I think but I'd be very surprised if I don't get accused of something, by someone!

REMEMBER SCOTLAND!

[IndigoPrime]

I wouldn't normally speak in favour of something like the House of Lords but it's worth noting that they have stopped some major shenanigans being implemented by Governments, past and present. Without a counterbalance the ruling Government could get away with pretty much anything!

Well, that's where we're heading anyway, with the reforms the Tories are shoving through. Now crossbenchers are a hindrance rather than an ally, the Lords is being redefined as little more than a revision chamber, rather than a check and balance. My take on this is the Lords has at times been good despite itself. But that doesn't mean it's not in need of massive reform.

My personal preference would be to replace the second chamber with a British senate, with those within elected on a regional PR basis, in staggered elections. My only concern would be the danger to crossbenchers and independents, given the UK voter's typical nature of voting for a party rather than a candidate. (The relatively 'neutral' stance of many Lords is beneficial when it comes to scrutiny of legislation.

Obviously people can point out that Westminster is undemocratic but at least we can vote them out every 5 years and seeing as Scotland did just that last time, then you can't use the old bollocks that your vote doesn't count EVER AGAIN!

The problem is the system is rigged and it will only get worse after the boundary reforms. Right now, a lot of people make the assumption the Tories have a majority because the majority voted for them, when they in fact have a working parliamentary majority from a popular vote share of 36.9%. The argument we can "vote out a government" isn't accurate, because even a massive swing is rarely enough. And beyond the main two parties, it makes bugger all difference anyway. The Lib Dems long had 20–25% of the vote but single figures in seats. UKIP got one seat, despite getting over a third as many votes as the Tories, who got 330 seats. The Greens got one, despite having a tenth of the vote of Labour, who got 232 seats. The entire system is screwed, and those in power merely want to strengthen their hold.

The EU keeps us safe, does it really.

From a military perspective, no. From a social perspective, in many ways yes. This is of course one of the reasons why certain Conservative politicians are gung-ho about leaving. Get rid of the EU 'forcing' laws on the UK and you can scrap all kinds of things regarding benefits and employment law.

The trade deal (TTIP) which has been discussed here a few time, isn't that what the EU but mostly, America want and will be bad for us all but that's okay, as the EU is great and will get us little people a great deal.

TTIP is dreadful, and wholeheartedly backed by the Conservatives. If we leave the EU, you can guarantee any deal with the US will be even worse, because we will lack the collective clout the EU affords.

Jezza can save the day!

I think there's more chance of Mark Millar taking over as lead writer on Dredd.

As for all those ex-pats in Spain, it's common knowledge that if Spain pushed them all out then that part of the country would go under.

It's unlikely that existing residents would be pushed out, unless the UK decided to go batshit on those already resident here. There are existing treaties and laws that would have to be fully investigated in the event of Brexit to see what rights individuals would be afforded.

The point, though, is that from Brexit onwards, everything changes. Today, anyone from the UK can bugger off and live anywhere else in the EEA. You just get up and go. Post-Brexit, we'll be more isolationist by design. You'd perhaps be able to live in Spain, but only if you're stinking rich and get fast-tracked for a visa, or have a job ready and waiting and can jump through the various hoops. Even travelling abroad temporarily will become more of a pain in the arse. (I again await the Daily Mail's SHOCK and HORROR and Brits are forced into lengthy immigration queues at airports while all those EU people go through at speed.)

REMEMBER SCOTLAND!

I'm sure we will once it wrenches itself free from the UK if Brexit wins. Many of us will remember the chance we had to move there before that happened.

[NapalmKev]

One thing I would say about your (John Burdis) comment "immigration is ripping countries apart" you fail to address the fact that it's because of 'our' rulers invading other nations on the bogus pretext of Democracy, when they're really only after the resources of the invaded nations. This has been proven time and time again!

Cheers

*edited because I was too slow replying

[Jim_Campbell]

I'm sure we will once it wrenches itself free from the UK if Brexit wins. Many of us will remember the chance we had to move there before that happened.

An independent Scots government is likely to be very amenable to immigration — Scotland has a small and rapidly ageing population, worse than the UK as a whole, and they recognise (unlike the Westminster government) that an inward flow of working migrants is the most efficient way to address this.

I certainly have one eye north of the border in the event of an EU exit.

Cheers

Jim

[Professor Bear]

I too think it's terrible the UK's notoriously liberal press won't report on all those roving immigrant rape gangs, much as I think it's terrible how they won't publish stories about Nessies because they're so afraid of upsetting the post-Triassic plesiosaur lobby.

[The Legendary Shark]

The two options as I see them:
.
1) Remain in the EU, allowing the political and financial elites to continue stealing your money, privatising your public assets and enforcing legislation you neither voted for nor agree with.
.
2) Leave the EU, allowing the political and financial elites to continue stealing your money, privatising your public assets and enforcing legislation you neither voted for nor agree with.

[NapalmKev]

The two options as I see them:
.
1) Remain in the EU, allowing the political and financial elites to continue stealing your money, privatising your public assets and enforcing legislation you neither voted for nor agree with.
.
2) Leave the EU, allowing the political and financial elites to continue stealing your money, privatising your public assets and enforcing legislation you neither voted for nor agree with.

You forgot 3) - Revolution!

Being ruled by Europe is no different to being ruled by a UK Government that you didn't vote for!

Cheers

[The Legendary Shark]

Exactly.
.

[IndigoPrime]

50 points for Ollamh Iompróidh.

Elsewhere:

An independent Scots government is likely to be very amenable to immigration [...] I certainly have one eye north of the border in the event of an EU exit.

Indeed. I'm also mulling over applying for an Irish passport (my dad's parents were both Irish, and I see that's a possible route to retaining an EU passport, etc., and it's something I've long wondered about anyway).

Post-Brexit, Lesser Britain would be very odd. Two land borders with EU states. Naff-all oil revenue. Cut off from a big chunk of renewable energy. Urgh. (I wonder how many Conservatives would be happy with the state of 'England'. Hard to tell. Many seem hugely 'patriotic' in the 'UK! UK!' sense, but you get the feeling they abhor Scotland and Wales, and pretend NI doesn't exist.)

The two options as I see them:

Sigh. I just... ... ... sigh.

[The Legendary Shark]

Sigh. I just... ... ... sigh.

Funny - that's exactly how I feel about it as well. Glad to see we have something in common.

[IndigoPrime]

Don't twist my words (even in jest).

I feel passionately about this subject matter, not least because it has massive potential impact on me and my family. Your casual hand-waving is not helpful and avoids the fact there are very real differences between both camps, even if neither adheres to your impossible dream of some kind of anarchist utopia.

[M.I.K.]

I have two things to say about this.

Firstly, if Britain left the EU, there probably wouldn't be the same requirements to label stuff properly and I wouldn't know if certain foodstuffs, (such as the American macaroni and cheese I bought from a Poundland a couple of years ago with a sticker slapped on it), have tartrazine in them and tartrazine makes me go all wheezy.

Secondly, who came up with the word 'Brexit' and would it be possible to murder them?