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Author Topic: Prog 2265: Worlds at War  (Read 2124 times)

Leigh S

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Re: Prog 2265: Worlds at War
« Reply #60 on: 29 January, 2022, 06:54:58 PM »
Skip Tracer seemed very much like the wrong answer to the right question.  A story that had more variable length stories (I think?) that were more stand alone.  The prog definitely needs more stories that like Sin/Dex can have two-eight parters as the main bulk of their run, with the ability to go epic when required.

The Nu Earth Tales ideas sounds good as that would encourage varying lengths of story - you'd need someone to really grab a hold of the setting though, as otherwise, you end up just proving that GFD had a secret sauce that "better" writers have yet to uncrack the recipe for - The spin offs we haave had are at best decent, but I dont think they ever feel like they engage with the settings potential to rival MC1 as a setting in itself - War turned up to 1000.

Funt Solo

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Re: Prog 2265: Worlds at War
« Reply #61 on: 29 January, 2022, 11:58:45 PM »
Shakara did a good job of managing long gaps between series - I never felt confused about what was happening: each series managed to be both self-contained and part of a longer narrative. That had gaps of 3, 3, 1 & 2 years between the five series.
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Tjm86

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Re: Prog 2265: Worlds at War
« Reply #62 on: 30 January, 2022, 11:23:53 AM »
The spin offs we have had are at best decent,

Jaegir 'decent'?  How can we let such sacrilege stand!!!!!!

Jim_Campbell

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Re: Prog 2265: Worlds at War
« Reply #63 on: 30 January, 2022, 12:32:33 PM »
The Nu Earth Tales ideas sounds good as that would encourage varying lengths of story - you'd need someone to really grab a hold of the setting though, as otherwise, you end up just proving that GFD had a secret sauce that "better" writers have yet to uncrack the recipe for - The spin offs we haave had are at best decent, but I dont think they ever feel like they engage with the settings potential to rival MC1 as a setting in itself - War turned up to 1000.

Well, I disagree with this almost completely. I don't believe there was any 'secret sauce' in GFD's Rogue — in fact the best thing to happen to the Rogue Trooper universe was taking Rogue out of it. I think the main reason the original run of the series is so fondly remembered is because Tharg threw the very cream of his art droids at it. For every great idea like biowire there's some interminable slog like Fort Neuro.

In my capacity as armchair Tharg, I wouldn't envisage a 'Tales of Nu Earth' slot as an all-out war strip, since that would literally by running a Rogue Trooper strip without Rogue in it. I had in mind something more wide-ranging — you can run the same gamut of stories you get with Dredd. Humour, tragedy, action, and horror would all work within the setting, so you can just pair up writers and artists whose strengths play to a particular tone and let them loose.
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IndigoPrime

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Re: Prog 2265: Worlds at War
« Reply #64 on: 30 January, 2022, 01:23:40 PM »
The nostalgia for Rogue Trooper always surprises me. I suppose that’s in part because I don’t personally have a history of growing up with war comics. Bar comics based on toys and telly (Transformers; Zoids), 2000 AD was my first comic that wasn’t a humour one. But also, when I read old 2000 AD strips, Rogue Trooper mostly does nothing for me. When compared to other ‘golden age’ strips, it’s just kind of dull, a bit silly, and meanders.

Early Sláine, up to and including Horned God, still holds up for me (even if the ‘leyser gun’ stuff is a bit… well). Strontium Dog at its worst in the Prog was very readable and at its best is some of the best output from the comic’s entire history. Nemesis was for me fantastic before it got bogged down in itself sometime around book six. Rogue… yeah…

I liked Cinnabar a lot, but that was mostly John Smith letting rip and doing his own thing. Tor Cyan was pretty interesting. Jaegir is superb and my biggest criticism of it is the strip’s infrequent appearances. But Rogue? Nah. Rogue’s world, though? Maybe. It’d certainly be interesting to see what would happen if Tharg commissioned, say, a run of 20 strips, which were at most two- or three-parters.

Leigh S

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Re: Prog 2265: Worlds at War
« Reply #65 on: 30 January, 2022, 02:53:14 PM »

I'm not saying Rogue  himself is the secret sauce, though. But if GFD didn't create something compelling on at least one very fundamentally strong level, why have we had so many attempts to keep it going?  Why are you yourself suggesting running stories in that Universe?

Why did the Hit (and Horst for that matter) fail, but Alan Moore and John Smiths Nu Earth set stories succeed?

I say Jaegir is "decent" in the sense that the Dredd 2012 film is a decent rendering of Mega City One - a grim and gritty one that stays true to some core aspects, but doesn't want to be associated with the day glo "silliness" of the previous iteration.  There's some (albeit slight) baby with the bath water for my money.


Like IP, I never really appreciated Rogue - liked it enough (bought the board game!) but thought other strips were just a bit more "sophisticated".

 
When my son was 10 or 11 and started reading through my complete Dredds and best of 2000ADS, I was hoping he would become  a huge Stront or Nemesis fan -sadly, the geek gene has skipped a generation and while he really enjoyed what he read, he didn't become a "fan" of comics - he does remain to this day a big "fan" of Rogue Trooper though, which was his favourite of all the strips - so there's your secret sauce, even if it's one that appeals to casual reading 10-12 year olds... something the prog is actually trying to do with Regened. 

While you disagree with me, weirdly I'm not sure I disagree with you at all!  As you say, run the whole gamut of strips - humour, horror - like Dredd does - Nu Earth as a "war on steroids" setting similar to MC1s "America on steroids" .  Keep Rogue as an occasional guest star or unseen back story.

But make sure you keep the "GFD" factor of trying to make something larger than life - yes, that gets you Fort Neuro at times, but it also gets you Bio-wire, drill probes, decapitators, K for Ken, hard rain, Dream Weavers, Brass & Bland, Scum Marines, The Sun legion - none of these things were made up by the artists - all GFDs ideas.

GFD deserves more credit than he gets - I see Fiends of the Eastern Front is back in April. 

 

The Nu Earth Tales ideas sounds good as that would encourage varying lengths of story - you'd need someone to really grab a hold of the setting though, as otherwise, you end up just proving that GFD had a secret sauce that "better" writers have yet to uncrack the recipe for - The spin offs we haave had are at best decent, but I dont think they ever feel like they engage with the settings potential to rival MC1 as a setting in itself - War turned up to 1000.

Well, I disagree with this almost completely. I don't believe there was any 'secret sauce' in GFD's Rogue — in fact the best thing to happen to the Rogue Trooper universe was taking Rogue out of it. I think the main reason the original run of the series is so fondly remembered is because Tharg threw the very cream of his art droids at it. For every great idea like biowire there's some interminable slog like Fort Neuro.

In my capacity as armchair Tharg, I wouldn't envisage a 'Tales of Nu Earth' slot as an all-out war strip, since that would literally by running a Rogue Trooper strip without Rogue in it. I had in mind something more wide-ranging — you can run the same gamut of stories you get with Dredd. Humour, tragedy, action, and horror would all work within the setting, so you can just pair up writers and artists whose strengths play to a particular tone and let them loose.

Jim_Campbell

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Re: Prog 2265: Worlds at War
« Reply #66 on: 30 January, 2022, 03:16:13 PM »
I'm not saying Rogue  himself is the secret sauce, though. But if GFD didn't create something compelling on at least one very fundamentally strong level, why have we had so many attempts to keep it going?  Why are you yourself suggesting running stories in that Universe?

I'm disputing the GFD secret sauce — Rogue as published was formulated as the result of an extended brain-storming session between GFD, Dave Gibbons and Steve MacManus, and bore very little resemblence to to the series as originally pitched.

Clearly, there is something strong in there, but both Dave and Steve are talented writers themselves and we have no way of knowing who brought what to the final product, only that the original GFD pitch was considered a very long way short of publishable.
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broodblik

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Re: Prog 2265: Worlds at War
« Reply #67 on: 30 January, 2022, 03:25:21 PM »
Rogue Trooper for President
When I die, I want to die like my grandfather who died peacefully in his sleep. Not screaming like all the passengers in his car.

Old age is the Lord’s way of telling us to step aside for something new. Death’s in case we didn’t take the hint.

Leigh S

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Re: Prog 2265: Worlds at War
« Reply #68 on: 30 January, 2022, 03:26:24 PM »
And Judge Dredd would have been "Jeff Stryker, Futu-Cop!"  if it wasnt for editorial.  The fact is, I doubt Dave Gibbons or Steve MacManus was suggesting story ideas each and every week - all those great things those great artists got to draw came from GFD  - yes, I'm sure his scripts needed kicking into shape, but that long list of ingredients I mentioned?  No evidence to suggest any of those things came from anyone but Finley Day

Leigh S

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Re: Prog 2265: Worlds at War
« Reply #69 on: 30 January, 2022, 03:29:00 PM »
edit - editorial and Carlos. 


Jim_Campbell

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Re: Prog 2265: Worlds at War
« Reply #70 on: 30 January, 2022, 03:49:48 PM »
I'm disputing the GFD secret sauce — Rogue as published was formulated as the result of an extended brain-storming session between GFD, Dave Gibbons and Steve MacManus, and bore very little resemblence to to the series as originally pitched.

I just want to clarify on this point: it sounds as though I'm calling GFD a worthless hack here, and that wasn't my intention… but I've left it too late to edit the original post.

I have a great deal of fondness for much of what he wrote in Battle, but I remain unconvinced that he was ever a great fit for 2000AD. The fact that both Harry Twenty and Fiends of the Eastern Front were extensively re-written, and Rogue was notorious in the editorial office for the amount of works the scripts required every week to get them into a publishable state rather supports that feeling.

Beyond that, I don't really see the point in arguing any further about this.
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Leigh S

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Re: Prog 2265: Worlds at War
« Reply #71 on: 30 January, 2022, 05:46:49 PM »
Agreed and dont take this as me continuing an argument just laying out what I would want from a Nu Earth strip I havent seen in the versions we have had - for me it isnt about who did what, but that those early stories have something that later iterations dont, and I do think theres a tendency for us as fans who have had a couple of decades or more of "talking hat" and "buttplug" jokes to overlook a lot of the things that made Rogue in those early strips a genuine hit character/setting, if only for the more casual reader.

JayzusB.Christ

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Re: Prog 2265: Worlds at War
« Reply #72 on: 30 January, 2022, 08:36:35 PM »
 Sorry for steering the thread off topic even more, but there did the buttplug joke come from? I know I saw it but it's been doing my head in trying to remember where.  Surely not Droid Life?
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Funt Solo

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Re: Prog 2265: Worlds at War
« Reply #73 on: 30 January, 2022, 08:49:35 PM »
Sorry for steering the thread off topic even more, but there did the buttplug joke come from? I know I saw it but it's been doing my head in trying to remember where.  Surely not Droid Life?

I first saw it posted here on the forum - I think it was art by PJ Holden, and I think it was published in STAK!
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