This weeks Strontium Dog

[House of Usher]

I think the origin of "scrotnig" is somewhere up the thread, or via the newsgroup link.

I'm re-reading Thrill Power Overload at the moment, so I know this one.

Apparently Gerry Finley-Day wrote a script for Invasion! in which he typed 'scrotnig' instead of 'escorting.'

[Proudhuff]

Thus making the the Doghouse an Escort Agency?

[Mark Taylor]

Woah woah woah no. There's a difference between allegory and window dressing...

Okay I'm not quoting your whole post because I really don't have time to address it. Come Saturday I'm off on holiday for three weeks and due to other commitments between now and then this is probably the last (short) chance I'll have to contribute to any online discussions between now and then. Apologies therefore if I seem to be giving your points short shrift.

You're right - allegory and window dressing are two such completely separate things that you can't even begin to compare them on any level I can think of. That wasn't what I was doing.

For a start, I would not even classify Monsters as allegory. It is relatively unsubtle satire. Allegory is far more subtle. With allegory you generally have to actually think about it to understand the underlying meaning. Certainly not required for Monsters.

If it was allegorical you would have a point. However, in my opinion, if you want to write an allegory a sci-fi setting is still a fairly arbitrary choice of vehicle with which to do so. I'll concede on this point - it doesn't necessarily make it bad sci-fi but it does pretty much render the choice of genre no more significant than a window dressing choice. (Again, no allegory is not window dressing, but certain choices a writer might make when writing allegorically most certainly are). It's not the kind of sci-fi I particularly enjoy and I therefore class it as second rate according to my own preferences.

As stated elsewhere, I didn't hate Monsters. I found it at least mildly entertaining, although third rate compared to much of the material in the strip which preceded it. I find some of the very early Strontium Dog stories while the strip was still finding it's feet to be second rate compared to the later stuff - Mainly because at that point Johnny Alpha was little more than a Bad-Ass Bounty Hunter in Space who just happened to be a member of a futuristic 'ethnic minority'. The really good stuff started from Portrait of a Mutant onwards, because painting Johnny's background really brought him to life and defined him as a character.

I have no problem with telling the type of story Ennis wanted to tell here, I just don't think the successor to the Strontium Dog strip was the right vehicle in which to tell it. As others have stated, it felt "shoehorned in" as if Ennis just wanted to tell the story he wanted to tell, and didn't really care very much if it actually fitted into the strip he was writing, or at least didn't perhaps give it as much thought as he could have. I have a sneaking suspicion that given what Ennis has subsequently said about his work on the Judge Dredd strip and his time with 2000AD in general, he might even agree with this point himself. (On the other hand he might violently disagree - clearly I'm just speculating based on some snippets I've read based on vaguely related topics).

By the way, in case it actually needs to be said, all of the above is my opinion. No, I don't lay down the law on what sci-fi should be, but I know my own preferences and I'm fairly confident that most sci-fi fans in general have certain expectations of the genre - which tend to include some degree of innovation and imagination.

Let's just say that my observations on this point would lead me to believe that more 2000AD readers than not probably wouldn't consider Monsters to be one of the the comic's finest moments. Funnily enough, experience seems to bear this out.

Anyway, I've already spent far too much time on this and I'm afraid I won't be able to respond to any further posts until at least three weeks from now (by which time this thread will probably be dead and buried).

[Woolly]

Great quote from Middenface this prog:
"He says nothin' is certain oan Zen, but there's a good chance this time o' year. Maybe eighty percent.
Make o' that, whit ye will."


I find that if you replace the word 'Zen' with 'Strontium Dog', it kinda explains my viewpoint.
"Make o' that, whit ye will", indeed! 

[Leigh S]

I think Larf is getting close to my feelings on Feral, and probably does draw a very simple line betwweeen why James is liking DogS and I was hating it.  

AS you say, James, you like that post Watchmen era.  for me, it kinda stinks (sorry!) Without going all Byrnesy, I think the rush to follow Alan Moores "template" (and he never said he was making a template, just lots of comics writers (and fans! and fan writers!!) suddenly thought they could be cool instead of embarrassed about their status).  

For me 2000AD was never so mature as when it was written for kids, and I find a lot of the attempts to "grow up"  a bit off, even from my then favourite creators such as Pat Mills Crisis stuff and subsequent decade of overt politicking.

Theres a quote in TPO about Alphas death thats very releavant to both our opinions I think!

Steve MacManus on Alpha's death: "it didnt register on my radar. Johnny dying didnt seem a big deal when I was editing stories for Crisis about massacres in South africa and tiananmwen square - written by people who had experienced it. That seemed much more real."  

If Dogs had thrown up an interesting new world, a set of exciting tales and incredible events and imaginative ideas, then I would probably have been sold on it. But for me, it felt like the writers were trying too hard to be down with the kids(see LArfs desription) and as importantly, they stopped being stories about Strontium Dogs, and became stories about "Strontium Dog".

Let me try to explain that last one - like new Who, they became stories about themselves, about the characters and mythos, rather than their own beast.  So you have years of stories about minor characters, or reintroducing minor characters as major players, so they ahve to be built up with this that and the other pasted on to beef tehm up a bit, and in the whirlwind, someone forgot to put in the ingredients that make the SD world so compelling - it just felt like SD spent years gazing into itself, maneuvoring itself around (and around itself!) rather than just getting on with blasting our thrill circuits with clever, crazy and imaginative tales

And sometimes we got cool allegories and emotional high points, but never as the sole reason, the sole thrust of things. As i say, its like RTD Who where the focus on charcater over plot means the characters are actually less engaging for me as we dont really experience anyhting with them, or anyhting that feels "Real". Take me on a Journey into Hell, and I'll learn all I need to know about the characters.  Dont tell me about the characters by sending them on a Journey into Hell.

So for me , everything that ahppened after FS was jsut a bit of a false start - heck, a series of false starts.  If one thing had been run with, imaginaitvely and boldly, perhaps it might ahve earned its place. As it was, it felt to me like ti stumbled about without direction and fizzled out mostly unloved

Does that even make sense?

[maryanddavid]

Great thread. I have a feeling that this will be Alphas 'necessary' story like  Origins was for Dredd.
Origins for me was a decent story, not a classic like others but more of a necessary story to move the character into a position that Wagner wanted. The post Origin Dredd stories have been the best Dredd stories since the early eighties.

I am a bit wary of Alpha coming back, Druids in hilltops, magic planets etc, sometimes seem a bit forced.
The other side the first episode and the one with Ferals death have been the best in the comic this year(along with Sinfields arrest too!). With my reservations, im still with Wagner, I want more Alpha adventures, and as someone else said, in 5 years time if great new Alphas are churned out, this story will have led to it.

I think Ennis and Hogan are getting a bit of a hard time, I liked Monsters when it came out, mayby not a classic, compared to most of what was published in 2000ad at the time it was good. Ennis and Hogan made the best use of what they were left with, a story without the main character, kinda like continuing 007 without James Bond, and IMO they made a decent stab at it, Dobbyns art was great too.
Mayby not though, the Gronkinator springs to mind, who thought that was a good Idea??
A Meg floppy is called for all the stronty dogs stuff.
I really likes the Tales from the Doghouse that ran for a while. I wouldnt mind seeing more of these.

David

[LARF]

I am a bit wary of Alpha coming back, Druids in hilltops, magic planets etc, sometimes seem a bit forced.
The other side the first episode and the one with Ferals death have been the best in the comic this year(along with Sinfields arrest too!). With my reservations, im still with Wagner, I want more Alpha adventures, and as someone else said, in 5 years time if great new Alphas are churned out, this story will have led to it.

I think that Wagner HAS to reference some kind of 'Magic' in order to bring Johnny (if that's the end result) back. Magic was used in the final solution, therefore I think Wagner's card has been forced in that aspect. BUT, one man's magic is another's science - what's to say the planet is not just a natural scientifically explained occurance and the stone wizards are a naturally occurring outcome of the planets evolution, it may be magic to McNulty and the Tri-Mammary woman, but hey...

[Mikey]

Great thread. I have a feeling that this will be Alphas 'necessary' story like  Origins was for Dredd.
Origins for me was a decent story, not a classic like others but more of a necessary story to move the character into a position that Wagner wanted. The post Origin Dredd stories have been the best Dredd stories since the early eighties.

Yeah, I agree with that 100% - I think I made the same comparison on one of the Prog review threads too.

I think Ennis and Hogan are getting a bit of a hard time, I liked Monsters when it came out, mayby not a classic, compared to most of what was published in 2000ad at the time it was good... kinda like continuing 007 without James Bond, and IMO they made a decent stab at it, Dobbyns art was great too.

Well put sir!

M.

[Robin Low]

Mayby not though, the Gronkinator springs to mind, who thought that was a good Idea??

I must admit that I don't remember having a problem with it at the time. Undeniably lazy of course, but ripping-off ideas from movies is hardly new.

A Meg floppy is called for all the stronty dogs stuff.

I keep hoping, but I think it would have to be complete and chronological if we want to make a fair assessment of it.

Regards

Robin

[Dog Deever]

I don't feel I slagged JamesEdwards off. I merely had the temerity to disagree with him.

Offensive? My arse.
Get over yourself, I can tell you whatever the fuck I like- you don't have to listen or take it on board. I certainly at no point 'pretended that I was an authority on who is a fan'- I just looked at the facts, so fuck right off.
I like Voodoo Child and a couple of other tracks, but that doesn't make me a Hendrix fan. I like a few Sinister Dexter stories, but I wouldn't say I was a fan of it. I'm not questioning your veracity as a 2000ad fan- but liking one arc from an entire series doesn't make you a fan of a particular strip, regardless of how much you'd like to be considered one- 'fan' is short for fanatic. I'm sure I don't need to spell it out any further.

If my post caused you offence- report me or shut the fuck up, because I'm not interested in your 'OMG he offended me' whining.
I'm not about to apologise for not having the same opinion or for dismissing yours out of hand. That's my prerogative, I'm not obliged to place any weight on anything that anyone says. Least of all on opinions about Strontium Dog held by someone who appears to actively dislike many of the most important elements in the entire series.

'I'm right, you're wrong and here's why' certainly applies very well to your posting in this thread so far- any time anyone disagrees, as if you are somehow right. You aren't- it's just your opinion and I can tell you what I think of it.

[IndigoPrime]

Mayby not though, the Gronkinator springs to mind, who thought that was a good Idea??

I must admit that I don't remember having a problem with it at the time. Undeniably lazy of course, but ripping-off ideas from movies is hardly new.

Hrn. Having the Gronk turn into a hard-arse was bad enough, but then having him followed by a doppelgänger with built-in guns, and using stupid nods to Terminator turned the thing into a pathetic satire. SD had humour in it, but this strip was just taking the piss out of itself by that point, like much of the rest of 2000 AD.

[Paul faplad Finch]

I've been avoiding this thread until I got caught up with the Progs for fear of spoilers. I've just now read the whole thing and I have to say that there has been some really fascinating points and counter points. It's really made me stop and think.

My opinion of this story is that I just don't like it. For many of the same reasons that jamesedwards has. Now, I have no problem if John Wagner wants to bring back Johnny. It's not something I particularly want to have happen but I can see that it's his prerogative and nothing I say is gonna change that if he's made his mind up so I've come to terms with it and moved on.

That said, I am a fanboy at heart, with many of the worst tendencies of that ilk, especially 'canon' fever. The Ennis stuff was in the prog, so was the Hogan stuff. It should be acknowledged as being within continuity. The way I see it JW had 2 options. He could have ignored them altogether (which would have seriously pissed me off and my 'coming to terms with it' would have taken a lot longer) or he could have found a way to carry on from where they left the universe.

Would this have been a minefield? Wuld it have been difficult? No doubt. But as is so often stated on here, and not without justification, Wagner is a bloody god writer and had he set his mind to it I reckon he could have come up with a way to do it.

Instead we get this half baked fudge of 'some of it happened, some of it didn't, it's all a bit vague' nonsense. All this talk of there being enough time between old events for this to happen and nothing is contradicted if you turn your head and squint is besides the point. On first look, without digging out the old issues and analysing them with a calculator and a slide rule, it seems like he is dismissing this stuff. Which is a shame.

Also, the Ho-Gan reference and the nasty death of Feral is coming across as childish disrespect. I know this has been discussed elsewhere and JW has given his reasons but when I read this story I get a big 'spite' vibe from it.

This whole enterprise has, in my view, been a massive misjudgement on the part of JW. However, before Jim gets on his high horse and starts telling me to fuck off I'd like to point out that this is just my opinion, which I acknowledge is a minority one. I'm still entitled to it though.

[M.I.K.]

RE: The Ho-Gan reference.

It's not only acknowledging that the stories exist, but also giving credit to the author who wrote them. In my opinion it would have been far worse to completely ignore their existence altogether.

As for everything else... the story's not finished yet. For the first time in years, literally anything could happen. Let's wait and see where it goes.

[Paul faplad Finch]

I know thats how the Ho-Gan reference was supposedly intended but thats not how it reads, at least to me. It reads as a dig. But thats weeks ago now and was debated at the time. I'll get over it.

As for seeing where it goes, I'll say this. If this story ends in such a way that arsom stories about Johnny follow I'll be the first to say Bravo. I'll not begrudge their existence at all. Each story on it's merits and all that.  Doesn't change the fact that this story has been a massive dissapointment. A state of affairs that I can't see my mind being changed about, give how little of it is left to run.

[DrJomster]

Well yes it's controversial at the moment, but I'll tell you one thing... I'll be reading it the absolute second it comes through the front door on Saturday!

A gripping and pivotal moment for SD, for me at least.