Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 12 October, 2022, 09:25:43 PM
Quote from: Woolly on 12 October, 2022, 08:05:10 PM
After everything he's said for creator's rights, to then jump on this bandwagon is just baffling.
TBH, Mills has never been about "creators" rights, he's only ever been about his rights.
Presumably, his position has been that it's up to other creators to stand up for themselves and maybe it's his supporters who've cast him as a champion of creator rights in general, but his willingness to replace artists at will on his strips (and the shameful exclusion of Martin Emond from the Accident Man credits) seems to indicate that he regards the artist as very much secondary in the creator hierarchy. In that light, his willingness to embrace AI 'art' is unsurprising.
However, we should probably break this out into another thread rather than completely derail this one...
Done!
I don't claim to understand much about either NFTs or AI art, but the latter makes me uncomfortable as someone who makes his living - well, half his living - out of commissioned artworks. He's got his own Jimmy Who? by the sound of it. Not cool. I remember Gordon Rennie making the same point about Pat's crusade for creators' rights actually being a crusade for one creator's rights.
It doesn't need to be said, of course, that Pat made 2000ad what it is, and created some of the best series Tharg ever gave us. I'll continue re-reading early Sláine and Nemesis for the rest of my life. But I don't believe he's done anything particularly special for a very long time, and I've found myself getting increasingly tired of his brand of angry narcissism. I hate to say it, but I don't miss him much in the prog.
Ironic, as later-Mills is heavily reliant on the artist to carry the thrill, because the script is often just a re-tread of his earlier work or too heavily laden with research-by-TFH.
I am also at this point that I stopped listening to "Me myself and I" rhetoric. I do not miss his work in the prog at all. He even had a swipe at "John" for his name appearing on the Diceman collection: I don't recall John actually writing anything. It looks like a typically misleading Rebellion cover. Not the first! 2/2
John Wagner said on FB he didn't remember writing anything for it either. There's a Dice Man Dredd story credited to TB Grover so maybe Alan Grant wrote it solo?
"a typically misleading Rebellion cover"
Er, what? FFS. His work must sell well, because at this point why the hell would Rebellion reprint anything of his, if all they get is shit for it, whatever they do?
As for NFTs, that's the one area in which I think his imprint (by way of his wife) does seem to be going about things in broadly the right away. It's just a technology and a means to legally distribute material across mediums. For people who care about collecting, and who might want to own rights/goodies beyond a book (say), it might work. Of course, Mills will need to deliver on whatever promises he makes, be that talks or whatever. But the basic concept doesn't really bother me – unlike elements of the ongoing crusade against Rebellion and the regular dismissal of artist rights.
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 13 October, 2022, 09:07:54 AM
As for NFTs, that's the one area in which I think his imprint (by way of his wife) does seem to be going about things in broadly the right away.
Leaving aside the rights and wrongs of NFTs/crypto in general (which is a whole other can of worms), I'm not sure building in a stipulation that Mills gets 50% of any resale of his NFTs (in perpetuity — 50%
every time one changes hands) is going about it the "right" way.
Ah, I'd not noticed the residuals level. As you were, then.
Quote from: Funt Solo on 13 October, 2022, 02:15:14 AM
Ironic, as later-Mills is heavily reliant on the artist to carry the thrill, because the script is often just a re-tread of his earlier work or too heavily laden with research-by-TFH.
TFH?
I'm guessing tinfoil hat.
NFTs are an utterly unethical scam that anyone with any scruples would have nothing to do with, it's the late capitalist equivalent of the old "selling Tower Bridge to tourists" con, but with much broader negative consequences for the environment.
So the fact Mills has whole-heartedly embraced them despite presumably knowing all this just shows exactly where his priorities lie, and it's not fucking humanitarian concerns.
I... disagree. NFTs in and of themselves are a technology. How people choose to use them is the problem, not the technology in and of itself. Sure, there's an element of land-grab going on, and people exploiting a system and people with more money than sense. But the idea of ownership within digital systems and virtual worlds is a compelling one, as is the means to transfer owned/created objects between different systems.
We aren't anywhere near there yet, but I'm loathe to dismiss an entire technology because of the bad ways in which it can be used and because it hasn't yet found a great deal of utility.
(Note: I'm not dismissing environmental factors here. Blockchain and crypto have long had problems in that space. But they are transitioning to alternate models. And I suspect if people know how much energy was required for the infrastructure that power their games, streaming music and such, they might be slower to slam anything else ronching its way through resources.)
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 13 October, 2022, 11:12:20 AM
I'm guessing tinfoil hat.
And we have a winner!
Yes - NFTs aren't an inherent evil (even if they are a bit annoying sometimes). Our society is stuck in a rut of binary thinking at the moment where you're either in one camp or t'other, when there's usually a road betwixt. If I learned anything growing up it's that it might be socially acceptable to have to decide between Adam & the Ants and Shakin' Stevens, but that some people liked both!
I just can't with him anymore hes became the same thing he used to write about between this nft buisness and some of the awful crap he says on his twitter i just can't with him anymore
He feels a bit like the John Cleese of comics these days. Well, mixed in with a bit of David Icke.
The main thing that bothers me about this forum is the constant Mills-bashing that goes on here, and this thread is another example of it.
Quote from: WhizzBang on 13 October, 2022, 04:15:13 PM
The main thing that bothers me about this forum is the constant Mills-bashing that goes on here, and this thread is another example of it.
I agree that there is a degree of Mills-bashing around, but it's also worth pointing out that for many on this forum Mills can do no wrong. It may be that the bashing grates with you in the same way that the adulation grates with others.
Quote from: Timothy on 13 October, 2022, 05:22:11 PM
Quote from: WhizzBang on 13 October, 2022, 04:15:13 PM
The main thing that bothers me about this forum is the constant Mills-bashing that goes on here, and this thread is another example of it.
I agree that there is a degree of Mills-bashing around, but it's also worth pointing out that for many on this forum Mills can do no wrong. It may be that the bashing grates with you in the same way that the adulation grates with others.
I'm kind of in between. I remain a fan of his work, I'm looking forward to his Joe Pineapples story, and I think he makes some valid points about creator ownership. But...well, the politest way I can think of to say this is that he weakens his case by overstating it.
Quote from: WhizzBang on 13 October, 2022, 04:15:13 PM
The main thing that bothers me about this forum is the constant Mills-bashing that goes on here, and this thread is another example of it.
I'd echo others. It's not constant, and there is some balance. I love a lot of Mills' work for the comic. On the other hand, I have criticisms. Is it bashing to point out when someone (even someone you might have a lot of affection for) does something you think is unfair? Maybe it is, from your perspective. I would assume that Mills (never one to blindly honor "the man") would appreciate that people don't blindly accept his word as gospel. If not appreciate, then surely understand.
It would be nice, I suppose, to hear your counter-argument to any of the points that have been raised. It's difficult to have a discussion based on "Mills is lovely" vs. "Mills is nasty". Mills is complicated.
I am dubious of NFTs, but admit that is due to the general air of pyramid scheme that surrounds the word, and my entre lack of understanding of what the hell they actually are. I read Pats explanation and couldnt really see how it was any different from a very liited edition run, that he can continue to monetize (though you could sell the physical copy and not the digital bit surely, thus cutting him out of the revenue stream?)
The other angle he seems excited about is "interaction" with fans, but I worry that is just franchising his characters to anyone willing to stump up cash?
AI art is not something I particularly like the idea of either - mybe for concepting it might have some uses, but thats using the prior work of others - you could argue Pat has always had that approach when he sent his artists tons of reference - using others orior work to buid on your own.
Both of those leave a sour taste - I see he is trying to defend the NFTs more than the AI art presently.
More of a problem for me would be any apologising for Putin, which I would hope Pat's self professed career fight against Authoritarianism would make impossible for him to dabble in. I understand that the difference between a Mask on and Mask Off authoritarian might be smaller than you think, but that doesnt make the mask off one any better! It's clear that Ukraine were not gagging to be subsumed into the Motherland and are fighting for Freedom. Thats the end of the debate as far as I'm concerned. If Russias neighbours ahve all been queuing up to join NATO, perhaps Russia needs to look at itself for the main reason why that might be.
Er. Please tell me Mills isn't a Putin apologist.
As for AI art, that I do have a problem with, but I suspect it's the inevitable March of progress. (That it is entirely reliant on pre-existing work and can iterate at terrifying speed seems to have escaped quite a few people.)
i can't read mills any more.
i wish someone had told my young self not to have heroes - y'know, marshal law or the like.
QuotePlease tell me Mills isn't a Putin apologist.
I read that as hypothetical. I haven't seen Mills say anything like that.
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 13 October, 2022, 07:27:38 PM
Er. Please tell me Mills isn't a Putin apologist.
Not...exactly. He's more the sort of lefty who is vastly more skeptical about Western media than he is about "Russian state-affiliated media", as they say on Twitter.
(https://i.imgflip.com/6wtcn3.jpg)
Quote from: WhizzBang on 13 October, 2022, 04:15:13 PM
The main thing that bothers me about this forum is the constant Mills-bashing that goes on here, and this thread is another example of it.
I recently did a re-read of American Reaper (shock twist: it reads pretty well in one go - serialisation did not do it any favours, and the lack of a collection is a real shame) and was thinking about starting a thread here about maybe re-considering or re-assessing it. Especially as it definitely *does* have flaws, but I wonder if some of the problems people had with it were a result of its very decompressed storytelling approach and being doled out a few pages at a time each month.
(for one thing, I was definitely surprised to discover that the story comes to a firm conclusion - one of the few Mills serials to do so. It may not be a great conclusion, but it doesn't just fizzle out like Savage)
But honestly, at this point in time it feels like threads here on Mills and his work, whatever the starting point, only ever go one way.
Quote from: 13school on 14 October, 2022, 04:52:48 AM
Quote from: WhizzBang on 13 October, 2022, 04:15:13 PM
The main thing that bothers me about this forum is the constant Mills-bashing that goes on here, and this thread is another example of it.
I recently did a re-read of American Reaper (shock twist: it reads pretty well in one go - serialisation did not do it any favours, and the lack of a collection is a real shame) and was thinking about starting a thread here about maybe re-considering or re-assessing it. Especially as it definitely *does* have flaws, but I wonder if some of the problems people had with it were a result of its very decompressed storytelling approach and being doled out a few pages at a time each month.
(for one thing, I was definitely surprised to discover that the story comes to a firm conclusion - one of the few Mills serials to do so. It may not be a great conclusion, but it doesn't just fizzle out like Savage)
But honestly, at this point in time it feels like threads here on Mills and his work, whatever the starting point, only ever go one way.
Maybe you're right - but I enjoyed a lot of American Reaper. I didn't think it was without its flaws, though. I'd say it shouldn't hurt to start up a thread on that topic.
For all that some folk are suggesting
this is a one-sided thread (or forum), I felt that it had already done this: "Mills loves NFTs and they're shit", followed by "Actually NFTs aren't totally shit", followed by "Oh, right, I see." All of that before anyone popped in to say that it was all one-sided hating for no reason. It may *feel* as if it's all Mills-bashing, but is it really?
I don't think the forum is Mills-bashing per se. Most of the problems people have will Mills come down to the same things: his constant slamming of Rebellion, his inconsistent stance on creator rights, and his recycling in the comics he writes that are most visible with people on this forum. However, I'd argue because he is so constantly vocal about everything, that's why he becomes a discussion point. Rarely do we have to wait long before there's another comment where he's bashing Rebellion for something or other, claiming the company is disingenuous or somehow has a vendetta against Mills and his work, and so on.
As Funt says, it's not like this is one-way traffic either. That would be more of a concern. Typically, I'd say these threads more often turn into interesting discussions about things like Rebellion's attitude towards contributors, creator rights, new technologies, and so on.
As for American Reaper, I'd say the big problem for me was the format. It just took up too much of the Meg. Because it didn't really click with me, its decompressed storytelling dominating the publication didn't exactly put me in a position where I felt increasingly favourable to it, let's say. But the broad strokes of the story worked well enough, and its finite nature was good to see. (And I don't mean that as damning with faint praise. I like it when stories end, even if there's always a door ajar for the future.)
I liked American Reaper, although I've never re-read it. Can't quite believe it's already ten years old. Maybe I should read it again. It had a strong premise.
Quote from: Richard on 14 October, 2022, 10:26:18 AM
I liked American Reaper, although I've never re-read it. Can't quite believe it's already ten years old. Maybe I should read it again. It had a strong premise.
It did, but what always put me off was that I felt like I was in a focus group for a movie pitch. I don't mind movies based on comics but I don't like comics that only seem to exist because they desperately want to be movies.
AS for Slaine, the story has descended into an incomprehensible ramble, but for some time I've just enjoyed it as a showcase for some jaw-droppingly beautiful art. I liked the way he tied up Savage and ABC warriors continuity, but don't need any more.
Quote from: 13school on 14 October, 2022, 04:52:48 AM
I recently did a re-read of American Reaper (shock twist: it reads pretty well in one go - serialisation did not do it any favours, and the lack of a collection is a real shame) and was thinking about starting a thread here about maybe re-considering or re-assessing it. Especially as it definitely *does* have flaws, but I wonder if some of the problems people had with it were a result of its very decompressed storytelling approach and being doled out a few pages at a time each month.
I think the main problem was exactly the opposite - it wasn't a few pages, it was about twice the amount of pages as any other story running at the time (and due to the 'decompressed' nature, told about two pages worth of story in the time).
I just had a quick sanity check on this, looking through a few issues. 316 was quite something. Ten pages of Dredd, 9 of Coburn and a whopping 32(!) for Reaper. And it looked like a storyboard – lots of big splash pages, but not a great deal of anything else.
That calmed down a bit later, but you still had episodes of around 18 pages, which was well over a third of the strip for each issue. So, erm, yeah. I do think I owe the series a re-read at some point, mind.
These are visual maps of the Megazine's content during the three seasons (sic) of American Reaper (which is displayed in pink, including the Reaper Files):
(https://i.imgur.com/MZ2F44i.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/PJSk5xi.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/XeKBCoh.png)
Personally, the fact that it dominated the issues by page count didn't effect me because I was on a multi-year catch-up read.
Don't worry - I didn't make these visualizations specially for this thread - I've been recording content like this for [checks notes] decades. Sorry about the text quality - I had to zoom in.
Quote from: Funt Solo on 15 October, 2022, 06:04:17 PM
Don't worry - I didn't make these visualizations specially for this thread -
Okay... but that suggests...
QuoteI've been recording content like this for [checks notes] decades. Sorry about the text quality - I had to zoom in.
Dear god, man! Why?
Regards,
Robin
Quote from: Robin Low on 15 October, 2022, 06:40:34 PM
Dear god, man! Why?
Hurr. Short answer is that I find it useful. It's both content
and structure, and helps me find stuff. I'm pretty sure Cosh has his own version of it, as well. Which *might* help him feed Barney from time to time. I'm not sure about the exact method by which Cosh feeds Barney.
Quote from: WhizzBang on 13 October, 2022, 04:15:13 PM
The main thing that bothers me about this forum is the constant Mills-bashing that goes on here, and this thread is another example of it.
He deserves it NFTs are rancid. He has become old man shouting at clouds & in love with his own image.
Quote from: Funt Solo on 15 October, 2022, 11:30:24 PM
Quote from: Robin Low on 15 October, 2022, 06:40:34 PM
Dear god, man! Why?
Hurr. Short answer is that I find it useful. It's both content and structure, and helps me find stuff. I'm pretty sure Cosh has his own version of it, as well. Which *might* help him feed Barney from time to time. I'm not sure about the exact method by which Cosh feeds Barney.
If you like, I'll show you my timeline in which I fit all the decent 200AD stories with a hint of the Dredd world into one gloriously unifying whole.
(Which I've not bothered with for about 20 years now, because I'm past caring. Sadly.)
Regards,
Robin
As mostly a fan of his work, I found the fact that Slaine stopped half way through a story extremely irritating, even as Mills AND Rebellion touted it as a conclusion.
Quote from: Bad City Blue on 19 October, 2022, 12:43:38 PM
even as Mills AND Rebellion touted it as a conclusion.
Well, if Pat had a commitment from Rebellion not to continue any of his stories without him, and then declared that this was going to be the last Slaine story, I'm not really sure what else they could do other than go along with it... (?)
My understanding is that no one is allowed to touch any of Mills stories. That was the agreement made. Yes, it is annoying for book 1 (of 3) to be the end
he's gone weird.
Or been consistently fractious throughout his career.
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 19 October, 2022, 12:52:19 PM
Quote from: Bad City Blue on 19 October, 2022, 12:43:38 PM
even as Mills AND Rebellion touted it as a conclusion.
Well, if Pat had a commitment from Rebellion not to continue any of his stories without him, and then declared that this was going to be the last Slaine story, I'm not really sure what else they could do other than go along with it... (?)
They could always draft in other creators to take over Pat's characters, one by one. Because doing that with Indigo Prime and Devlin Waugh went down very well on the social media...
To my knowledge and to his credit Pat Mills has not dropped out of communication midway through any projects, leaving artists and editor in the lurch, so that would be a different situation.
Quote from: sheridan on 19 October, 2022, 06:29:04 PM
They could always draft in other creators to take over Pat's characters, one by one. Because doing that with Indigo Prime and Devlin Waugh went down very well on the social media...
Well, no. Pat says he has an assurance from Rebellion that his characters/stories will not continue without his involvement which, as Art notes, isn't the same thing as simply stopping responding to any communication about ongoing stories.
Quote from: Art on 19 October, 2022, 06:49:19 PM
To my knowledge and to his credit Pat Mills has not dropped out of communication midway through any projects, leaving artists and editor in the lurch, so that would be a different situation.
As I understood it, John Smith was so traumatised by the death of his partner that he was unable to continue. If that's the case, then I think he deserves sympathy. And I say this as a member of the less-than-exclusive I've Been Cyber-Bullied By John Smith Club.
I think it's safe to say that anyone reading has a lot of sympathy around anyone else suffering a bereavement. As that's starting to encroach into someone's personal life we might consider quietly moving on. It's not as if we're going to be able to fix anything and, as has been covered in previous threads, the door at the Nerve Centre remains open.
Agreed.
As the person who brought that aspect in to this thread - sorry! My view of that situation are that there were no 'winners' with both Smith and Smith in difficult situations.
While we're re-assessing recent Mills works, I recently learned somwhere (think it was buried in the middle of 'Kiss My Axe, his memoir of writing Sláine), that Mills's original title for Greysuit was 'The Whistleblower'. All by itself, that makes me re-assess the entire series. Which I very much didn't enjoy, but mostly because I read it as a modern Brit Spy thriller that ended up actually being about a revenge tale against Upper Class Brit paedophiles. If I'd known the 'Whistleblowing' was the entire point, I reckon I'd've given it more of a chance.
Personally I think the lack of regular Mills input in recent years has been to the Prog's detriment.
He remains one of the finest writers alive, and one of the most important and inventive creators in the history of the comic.
Looking forward to the return of Joe Pineapples in a few weeks.
Quote from: AlexF on 04 November, 2022, 12:36:09 PM
While we're re-assessing recent Mills works, I recently learned somwhere (think it was buried in the middle of 'Kiss My Axe, his memoir of writing Sláine), that Mills's original title for Greysuit was 'The Whistleblower'. All by itself, that makes me re-assess the entire series. Which I very much didn't enjoy, but mostly because I read it as a modern Brit Spy thriller that ended up actually being about a revenge tale against Upper Class Brit paedophiles. If I'd known the 'Whistleblowing' was the entire point, I reckon I'd've given it more of a chance.
I wonder if I'll remember to bear that in mind whenver my prog slog gets to those stories?
Quote from: AlexF on 04 November, 2022, 12:36:09 PM
While we're re-assessing recent Mills works, I recently learned somwhere (think it was buried in the middle of 'Kiss My Axe, his memoir of writing Sláine), that Mills's original title for Greysuit was 'The Whistleblower'. All by itself, that makes me re-assess the entire series. Which I very much didn't enjoy, but mostly because I read it as a modern Brit Spy thriller that ended up actually being about a revenge tale against Upper Class Brit paedophiles. If I'd known the 'Whistleblowing' was the entire point, I reckon I'd've given it more of a chance.
That does seem to be a recurring theme in his work, unsurprising given the history he's shared on his blog.
Quote from: Link Prime on 04 November, 2022, 02:40:11 PM
Personally I think the lack of regular Mills input in recent years has been to the Prog's detriment.
He remains one of the finest writers alive, and one of the most important and inventive creators in the history of the comic.
Looking forward to the return of Joe Pineapples in a few weeks.
Agreed. It's a real shame he's stepped back - I wouldn't want a prog full of Mills, but he always added something to the mix that nobody else could provide.
I see he's now planning a self-published series where he goes into the origins of most of his best-known characters, which should be interesting (even if some of the origins have already been pretty well covered).
Quote from: Funt Solo on 15 October, 2022, 11:30:24 PM
Quote from: Robin Low on 15 October, 2022, 06:40:34 PM
Dear god, man! Why?
Hurr. Short answer is that I find it useful. It's both content and structure, and helps me find stuff. I'm pretty sure Cosh has his own version of it, as well. Which *might* help him feed Barney from time to time. I'm not sure about the exact method by which Cosh feeds Barney.
Indeed I do. It started as a download from your old web page I think. Over time, I stopped cataloguing the Meg in the same way, because it didn't seem worth the effort, but I've always kept the Prog file updated. A year or so ago, I realised I needed the Meg details for something else I was working on but didn't have them and couldn't send you a PM. So, if you'd be willing to share that Meg data I'd be really thankful.