Just out of curiosity...
Clint Langley's photoshop work with actual photos, like in the Books of Invasions, or his linework like in Joe Pineapples?
Think I'm going to have to go with his current style - the Invasions stuff was great but could get a bit messy at times, and that style's culmination in Sexy Ostriches just didn't hit the spot for me at all.
However, his Belardinelli tribute in Slaine and his current Meg and Prog work is just lovely - I could look at it all day. I also preferred his old Sláine-in-Robin-Hood-times stuff before he recoloured it, I have to admit - I preferred the lovely penmanship unblurred by photoshop filters.
I may be adding similar questions about other artists to this thread, if anyone indulges me with an answer.
Langley always rubbed me up the wrong way, however he was drawing. On principle though, I say leave the photos out of it, and draw your comics in pen and ink, like God intended.*
*(See Leviticus, the lesser frequented verses, over towards the end, down the back of the cushions.)
As ever with these things depends on the strip and what works best BUT in the spirit of the question I'd go his more 'natural' style which he's using in Joe Pineapples.
That said his use of photos worked really well in ABC Warriors by way of contrasting the 'human' characters really sharply. In Slaine for me it really didn't work at all. Different strokes for different strips as well as fiolks.
I like the style he is using in Joe Pineapples but does not mind his "photos" in both ABC and Slaine. Now if you look at his work in the current Storm Warning that is even different from the style he using in Joe Pineapples.
Reading the comments on the 'Looking Back' thread, I realise what it is I've got against Clint Langley. Fair enough, his aesthetic just isn't my cup of tea, but the real problem is that I will always associate him (consciously or otherwise) him with Dinosty.
Sorry, Clint. Sometimes talent isn't enough to wipe away the stain of youthful sins. I know Dinosty wasn't your fault, but when Pat Mills offered you the chance to follow in the footsteps of Glenn Fabry and Simon Bisley, you should have thought long and hard about it before binning your fancy pens and running away to sea.
I liked the painted artwork on Dinosty and the three episodes of Nemesis the Warlock (would have loved if the painted style had carried on to a whole book). Also liked the Massimo-callback linework. I like the photo montage, but not as much as the painted and linework.
Langley's photoshoppery might've worked well as the cover art for a prog*-metal album, but it never worked for me in the context of a comic, telling a story. Everything looked so stilted and no sense of movement or action was conveyed. Then whenever he was required to make a character emote, they tumbled down into the uncanny valley. An interesting experiment, the style wasn't fundamentally bad, just wrong for telling stories.
*no pun intended
I just wish Rebellion had the rights to Doomlord.
Quote from: M.I.K. on 23 January, 2023, 11:04:24 AM
I just wish Rebellion had the rights to Doomlord.
That is a pity but I think both John and Alan owns the rights. I would like a treasury complete omnibus
Quote from: broodblik on 23 January, 2023, 11:07:30 AM
That is a pity but I think both John and Alan owns the rights.
I thought Doomlord was one of the New Eagle strips whose rights (for reasons that escape me) are still tied up with the Dan Dare Corp, which is notoriously obtuse and difficult to deal with where licensing arrangements are concerned...?
I have read it somewhere but I can not for certain remember where I read it but then again I can be completely wrong
I seem to recall John Wagner saying that they are with Dan Dare Corp but he and Alan had a stake that meant they couldn't use they (not that they seemed likely to be planning to do so) without agreement from John and Alan and it was all too complex and not worth the effort to sort things beyond that...
... as every whatever the situation damned shamed series if lovelyl shiney Doomlord collections seems to be a long way off.
The grandly-titled Dan Dare Corporation don't even do anything with the Dan Dare rights - it's basically a retired film producer sitting on them on the ever-diminishing chance they might be worth something one day - so the chances of them doing anything with Doomlord seem negligible.
My favourite Langley stuff was his Slaine in Robin Hood mode, which was probably his most 'basic' style technically, ie pencil, ink, traditional colour. I think it's very impressive how he's tried various different styles over the years though. It's not always my personal favourite but I love when an artist keeps evolving. I've found his stuff recently on ABCs, Pineapples and Storm Warning more to my liking than the photo-type art, but I can't imagine how much time that must have taken to develop. Still haven't read Dynasty!
I agree with you about artists evolving.
As for reading Dinosty? Don't.
Just look at the pictures.
I am assuming the style he has adopted for Joe Pineapples is so that it is in keeping with the first two Bisley episodes. If he had used the photo style it would have been really jarring - unless he had done all the episodes. But this was always meant to be abled to be positioned as new Bisley art in the Prog.
I'd forgotten about Dinosty. It was all over the shop. I didn't mind the artwork but his pen and ink stuff is way better.
Well I like Langley's photo art! I'd love to see him do Dredd like that.
I prefer Langley's pens to his computers, for sure. I think the current Storm Warning run might be the best thing he's ever done, to be honest. But I really did love his Computer style on the first 2 or 3 ABC Warriors Volgan Wars, something about a photographic-seeming version of something that couldn't possibly exist in real life to be photographed was proper breathtaking.
Obvs this logic applies to a bunch of Slaine stuff, except I'm guessing many of the human faces WERE based partly on photos, and it took Langley a few books' worth to get good at this part of the job (for my money everything he did on Slaine post Books of Invasions, was great).
Quote from: AlexF on 24 January, 2023, 01:27:00 PM
Obvs this logic applies to a bunch of Slaine stuff, except I'm guessing many of the human faces WERE based partly on photos, and it took Langley a few books' worth to get good at this part of the job (for my money everything he did on Slaine post Books of Invasions, was great).
That's a fair point - he'd stopped doing the scrambled-egg backgrounds at that stage and it looked really good. From Carnival onwards his work looked far better.
I'm pretty sure that the human faces were, by and large, slightly altered photos. He pulled it off way better than the Nemesis photo strip.
To once again wave the flag for American Reaper, conceptually the idea of a strip all about people stealing other people's identities (as far as what we see on the page goes, their faces) created using photo-realistic art is a pretty good one (as an approach to action scenes, not so much).
The stiffness of the images actually underlines the point of the series - that often the faces we see are just a mask - while preventing what must be the obvious temptation for an artist to draw the character post-brain swap just that little bit different. The fumetti approach means a character's face looks exactly the same no matter who's "soul" is inhabiting their body, which is what the story is built around.
Which do you prefer?
If I may elbow in here, JayzusB, and tread on your toes, and generally act like I own the joint: how about Kev Walker's fully painted Khronicles of Khaos versus his pen and inks on something like Mandroid?
Walker's early contributions to the prog were nothing special at all, and then he's given The ABC Warriors and – oh wow. I used to smoke weed and go over those early episodes with a magnifying glass. Astonishing stuff.
Cut to the new century and it's minimalist as hell, shadowy as Mignola, utterly different, and still brilliant.
Which do I prefer? I'd have to say the newer style, because it's more confident and because sometimes less really is more.
(Maybe I'd think differently if I started smoking weed again, but I'm just too damned old.)
Quote from: JWare on 25 January, 2023, 12:36:44 PM
Walker's early contributions to the prog were nothing special at all
Interestingly, Steve MacManus identified Kev as a droid with a lot of potential, but not sufficiently grounded in the nuts-and-bolts of comic story-telling... so Steve got him inking Steve Dillon's pencils for a couple of years (Cinnabar, and a big chunk of the Harlem Heroes reboot), to which Kev directly attributes the improvement in his sequential work prior to flying solo again.
I like both styles Kev used on Khoas and Mandroid. I wish we can have him back in the prog
Quote from: JWare on 25 January, 2023, 12:36:44 PM
Which do you prefer?
If I may elbow in here, JayzusB, and tread on your toes, and generally act like I own the joint: how about Kev Walker's fully painted Khronicles of Khaos versus his pen and inks on something like Mandroid?
Walker's early contributions to the prog were nothing special at all, and then he's given The ABC Warriors and – oh wow. I used to smoke weed and go over those early episodes with a magnifying glass. Astonishing stuff.
Cut to the new century and it's minimalist as hell, shadowy as Mignola, utterly different, and still brilliant.
Which do I prefer? I'd have to say the newer style, because it's more confident and because sometimes less really is more.
(Maybe I'd think differently if I started smoking weed again, but I'm just too damned old.)
No problem, was going to switch to another artist but couldn't decide which one. Great choice though.
I think if you'd asked the younger me (who, along with a lot of creators and other fans, was still living in Bisley's airbrushed shadow) I would have gone for the flashy full-colour stuff. But my current self would definitely go for the brooding planes of muted colour and shadow used for
Mandroid, and especially
Sin City.
EDIT - It's not really an option, I know, but I might possible take his inking on Dillon's stuff on
Cinnabar over both of these. It was just what was needed for the filth, smut and blood that made up Cinnabar's streets and Nu Earth's swampier, uglier zones. I know he did the same for Harlem's Heroes but I mean, Harlem Heroes, for Jesus' sake.
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 25 January, 2023, 02:04:55 PM
was going to switch to another artist but couldn't decide which one.
The late-80s change in paper stock and the transition to full colour would provide plenty of material for this thread. A lot of before-and-after comparisons to be made.
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 25 January, 2023, 02:04:55 PM
I might possible take his inking on Dillon's stuff on Cinnabar over both of these. It was just what was needed for the filth, smut and blood that made up Cinnabar's streets and Nu Earth's swampier, uglier zones. I know he did the same for Harlem's Heroes but I mean, Harlem Heroes, for Jesus' sake.
I'm not usually a fan of separate penciller and inker, but Walker's inking really added to Dillon's work, and made
Harlem Heroes look very promising indeed. Shame they didn't deliver another
Cinnabar to us.
I bet Kev prefers the latter style, as it probably takes about a tenth of the time to achieve.
And, on that note, but tangentially, this is interesting: How to Replace the Sky (https://www.theverge.com/c/23339391/comic-photoshop-sky-replacement-digital-art)
Quote from: Funt Solo on 25 January, 2023, 06:05:03 PM
I bet Kev prefers the latter style, as it probably takes about a tenth of the time to achieve.
He was interviewed in the Meg a few years back, and he said that was his reason for trying the new style... but it really doesn't save much time because the time you save in the inks you spend getting right in the pencils, because there's no fudging stuff with fancy cross-hatching.
That's the thing that annoys me about the whole "more lines = better" segment of comic fandom — when you simplify your ink style, there's no way to hide bad drawing. What you're seeing in a less fancy ink style is more confidence and
better drawing.
Yeah much prefer Kev Walker's pen and ink work as exemplified by Mandroid. Its so clean and the use of blacks to create atomsphere and tone is wonderful, even when coloured (the colours normally feed off this and work so well too).
I find his painted work to be a little forced and doesn't convery mood as well. Its clearly technically very good but its just not as effective for me as his later work.
Another tough call! Instinctively I'd say Walker's later style is my preference; for me his work on the Origins prologue was just superb (basically his Mandroid style but tkane to even greater heights).
But, If I'm honest, I can still call to mind the thrill of seeing those previews for Khronikles of Khaos, and can absilutely remember the emotion of that bit in Childhood's End where Orlok and Anderson are moved to tears.
So I guess what I'm saying is that his painted stuff was more impactufl/impressive, but I relish the idea of reading his pen n' ink work more. I don't have much love for Hellbringer so it might be that the painted sutff gets old, fast, while the ink work is timeless?
So... just wondering, do get more pay for fully painted artwork than linework you've coloured yourself?
Also, Kev Walker made me think of Carl Critchlow. In his case, I'm not mad about his later linework and prefer the fully painted stuff he did on Flesh and Tales of Telguuth.
I could go out on a limb and say I prefer Carl's work on Thrud - but what I really mean is that I read it first and have fond memories.
I liked his work on Langosta al Azar (but didn't appreciate the story much).
Thrud for me too, but later Thrud and Lobster Random-era.
Critchlow's painted work in Flesh was excellent, but the story stank out loud, so he's tarnished by association (similar to what AlexF was saying about Walker on Hellbringer).
I wasn't dazzled by Lobster Random, but it had wit, and much of that was down to the art. Given he's the creator of Thrud, maybe Critchlow has a natural feel for comedy that manifests in all his work.
That particular run of Flesh wasn't a great story by any means but Critchlow's artwork elevated it considerably and I still have fond memories of it. (Also, I thought Pat Mills had made up feathered tyrannosaurus for that story, before learning that they might well all have been feathered.
The most recent Flesh, though - just no. The script wasn't terrible but the artwork really let it down.
I'm probably being unfair to that run of Flesh, but I couldn't be bothered being fair to anything from that era, narrow-minded old git that I've become.
Funnily enough I've just this week finished reading a lovely hardback collection of Carl Critchlows most recent (as far as I know) Thrud run and the art is just wonderful. You can tell he's having a ball.
For me his linework is streets ahead of his painted (I'm wondering if this will become a repeated theme for me here as most artists I can immediately think of that's the case!). While modern Thrud is wonderful - there are a few of the old White Dwarf Thruds in there and there his art is... well... developing shall we say) for me Lobster Random was his absolute best work. The story allowing his anarchic imagination run riot.
Oh, on Critchlow it's his line work by a mile - Lobster Random but also a bunch of Dredds around that time - he did a great Werewolf story, yes?
Funnily enough as far as Flesh: Legend of Shamanna goes, I actually like the story more than the art. It's not a great plot, but it does have some ludicrous and wonderful 'deveryone is a total dickbag' characters in it, including the dinosaur gang of 'heroes'. And while Critchlow was defintiely good enough to get that across, he didn't quite have the verve to make it sing.
(For what it's worth, I've written a bun ch of kids books on dinosaurs in my time, and Mills is as throuogh with his research on that as everything else. He does take the most niche bits and run with them, of course, but I do appreicate his commitment to the ideal that to get kids engaged in e.g. natural history, it's best to show lots of people getting eaten.)
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 27 January, 2023, 09:36:17 AM
Funnily enough I've just this week finished reading a lovely hardback collection of Carl Critchlows most recent (as far as I know) Thrud run and the art is just wonderful. You can tell he's having a ball.
That collection is great if it's the one I'm thinking of. I love Thrud. There's a sweet spot in the later Thruds where I think his art is absolutely wicked - I prefer it to his later stuff tbh, but I have a feeling that could be nostalgia talking.
I'm on the side of linework over painted for Carl Critchlow and Kev Walker, but hard to fault either.
Looks like I'm in a minority with Critchlow. Must get round to reading Thrud, judging by your reviews here.
Now.... Colin McNeil?
His linework stuff is amazing- that Surfer story was just a masterpiece- but when I think of America and Song of the Surfer I think I'll have to give it to his fully-painted art.
Always liked everything he's done but for some reason I really like his Insurrection work the best
Gotta agree - those first two books of Insurrection are INSANE to look at. The fact he wasn't able to complete the run in that style is both sad, and slightly makes me resent McNeil's more trad. comics style, excellent though it is.
Painted art was the salvation of MacNeil in Song of the Surfer. His figure drawing was still stiff and unconvincing in places and then, halfway through, KABOOM!
Napalm airbursts, fully painted.
Big wow.
Also, the print quality served him well, with (to my eyes at least) the slight muddying of everything suggesting LA smog.
Much as I like his linework these days, my heart votes for the napalm airbursts and the richness of America.
To throw another ha'penny onto my tuppence worth: the metallic monochrome on Insurrection works really well for bleak outer-spacey goings-on, and it should have been sustained through the last book (like what AlexF just said).
Honestly it's very hard to choose with Colin MacNeil because it's all so good.
JWare is right about the painted art in SotS being it's trump because the early episodes aren't anything great but when the bloodshed kicks in and it's fully painted... oh my god. As a kid that absolutely seared itself into my mind and I still get the same feelings reading it back now. America is the same, it's just really lush. The colours seem so alive I sometimes feel I can feel the heat of the surfaces in the sun or the gunshots.
Then Insurrection is also incredible, in a different way, cold and bleak and unfeeling but still full of depth. And his current stuff is also magnificent, although I think it's even better in black and white.
It was like that fully-painted style came out of nowhere at the time in his case. I remember him as an obvious quick replacement for Carlos on an SD story, and what his attempts to emulate the style (he even did those Ezquerra chainsaw outlines). He found his feet more with his first Chopper story, then WHAM! Suddenly there's an incredibly atmospheric painter carving out iconic chunks of 2000ad history.
So, while it's an incredible achievement to make his pen-amd-ink work so brilliant too, I'll stick. Fully-painted it is.
Those chainsaw outlines! What was the deal with them? I couldn't quite see why Ezquerra liked them so much, and I thought it was a bit much for his replacement to copy them.
There were hints of pyrotechnics to come in Our Man In Hondo, but not enough to prepare us for Song of the Surfer.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/i/jsware2002/Our_Man_In_Hondo.jpg)
This one impressed me a lot at the time.
I loved the style Colin used in America but my favorite Colin work is his B/W colour work on Defoe (prog 2026-2039)
Quote from: broodblik on 31 January, 2023, 04:26:09 PM
I loved the style Colin used in America but my favorite Colin work is his B/W colour work on Defoe (prog 2026-2039)
Good shout this and very underrated as the story is so bad.
Quote from: Barrington Boots on 31 January, 2023, 10:15:03 AM
Honestly it's very hard to choose with Colin MacNeil because it's all so good.
The exception that proves the rule that I will ALWAYS choose line-art. In this case I just can't decide both are so good!
The amazing thing about Colin MacNeil's painted work is it seems as clear and neat as his line work. A wonderful talent we are o lucky to have in Tharg's Thrill-Pouch.
Agree with Alex on Insurrection - I loved the first two books. They are a real high point and I'm sad the third book didn't use that style. But it's kinda a forerunner of the current style but in black and white.
Also agree with Jware on the fully painted stuff - some of the figures look a bit stiff, but yeah I really like It overall.
But I understand why he doesn't do the fully painted anymore - it just takes too long.
So when I look at the new stuff I'm both sad and happy at the same time. Sad it's not painted but happy to have MacNeil in the Prog / Meg at all.
Insurrection:
(https://images.rebellion.click/productImage/9a/1c/00.large.jpg)
(http://www.multiversitycomics.com/wp-content/themes/mvc/images/timthumb.php?src=http://multiversitystatic.s3.amazonaws.com/uploads/2014/08/macneilinsurrection.jpg&q=95&w=593&zc=1&a=t)
Defoe:
(https://2000ad.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/18-9-scaled.jpg)
Strontium Dog:
(http://www.multiversitycomics.com/wp-content/themes/mvc/images/timthumb.php?src=http://multiversitystatic.s3.amazonaws.com/uploads/2014/08/macneilstrontium692.jpg&q=95&w=593&zc=1&a=t)
America:
(https://images.rebellion.click/productImage/3a/22/00.large.jpg)
That first page of Defoe is an absolute classic. I didn't mind the story - it wasn't Pat Mills' best, but his best was very, very good - but Colin's artwork is incredible.
I'd forgotten about the Hondo City Dredd, kind of the halfway point between his early linework and his fully painter art. Also never noticed he was still doing the Ezquerra dotted lines there too.
Colin MacNeil's Dogbreath cover:
(https://i0.wp.com/downthetubes.net/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/Dogbreath-36-Cover.jpg?resize=768%2C545&ssl=1)
Some nice linework from Colin as well (Strontium Dog: The Schicklgruber Grab commission (2021)):
(https://64.media.tumblr.com/1006190552934409d0bcdb1e88dd0dd3/2c225d0e589cf9f6-91/s2048x3072/310db3eb7dcd1fc75954a79754993cf226f86f2e.jpg)
Quote from: JWare on 31 January, 2023, 04:14:58 PM
Those chainsaw outlines! What was the deal with them?
He thought they helped bring whatever they surrounded to the foreground.
Colin did a few covers for us. This one is astonishing. Dave had it on his mantlepiece for years before he could return it to Colin. (Yes, Colin sent him the original piece to scan!)
(https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/scale_super/0/77/1821019-z05macneil.jpg)
And this Devlin Waugh one:
(https://futurequake.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/deb6e-coverz2-14.jpg)
Quote from: Dash Decent on 01 February, 2023, 11:59:17 AM
Quote from: JWare on 31 January, 2023, 04:14:58 PM
Those chainsaw outlines! What was the deal with them?
He thought they helped bring whatever they surrounded to the foreground.
And so they did, but they also put a thick black dotted line around everything in the foregound, which looked downright odd. I was grateful when he toned it down/phased it out in later years.
I didn't mind them at all - I grew up with them, I suppose, so I just thought that was a normal way to draw comics. Carlos' work was never about being super-lifelike anyway, there was always a touch of stylised quirkiness.
They were also handy if you wanted a cut-out-and-keep paper Johnny Alpha.
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 01 February, 2023, 01:30:48 PM
a cut-out-and-keep paper Johnny Alpha
How long did you keep yours?
I also grew up with the Carlos-outlines, and like them. I can follow an argument that says good special effects aren't visible, but I also like artistic trademarks. It's not like I can argue with one of the absolute highlights of my childhood.