Argumentation

[Tjm86]

Well, I know that we have the 'healthy forum' thread and there is a general consensus about the nature of this place but a couple of recent 'thread locks' have got me thinking.  We're a broad church as a whole with an array of different backgrounds and experiences.  Ironically we are all linked by a passion for a comic featuring a fascist police officer but hey ho ...

What I'm wondering about is how we manage our differences effectively.  One thing that we've always done pretty well is 'self-moderation'.  Granted there have been folks through the years that have fallen by the way-side for various reasons.  Generally though discussions, debates and disagreements have been managed fairly well.

Yet a couple of times lately strongly held positions have pushed things to the limit and in one or two cases, beyond.  So I guess my question is this: is this merely an historical aberration, a sign of the febrile times that we live in that is taxing our psychological reserves?

As a corollary, how do we manage our debates and arguments in a text-based environment that lacks the additional cues that normally inform debate (as someone who struggles with that in RL courtesy of MHC, this one makes me laugh)?  Or is it simply safer not to have these types of discussions and stick with the old "never discuss religion or politics ..." (or various related topics) rule?

[Funt Solo]

Well, the first one that got locked was a spin-off from the Covid thread, in which I was attempting to take Shark's conspiracy theory views into a different zone. I'm partly culpable for how things turned out because, rather than try to find peace in a debate setting, I'm more like a dog with a bone. I want to win. There are key moments in that thread where I could've backed off. I didn't. It turned ugly. It got locked. I'm not proud of how it turned out and I tried to promise myself that I'd just entirely ignore Shark so that I didn't get myself embroiled again in such a negative no-movement back and forth.

Then he was back on the Covid thread - and I tried to make my points circuitously without directly engaging - but that's difficult when one is being quoted. That one, I don't know how else it could've ended. He was determined that he had a right to make his points, he even posted an appeal that basically suggested a sort of ownership over the board, and he doesn't think his points are conspiracy theories - he just thinks he's right. So, despite being warned off on a few occasions, it was something clearly undroppable for him, it kept causing friction and it got locked. I like to think my existence didn't assist the lock in that case and that it was just inevitable.

My reflection about the whole thing is: it didn't go well, it caused negativity, it made a broadly well-liked boarder either duck for cover or get banned (?) and it makes discussing Covid a sort of taboo subject on the board. Personally, I need to avoid debate situations with that person, because it became clearly abusive. (My ego says I was abused more, but I have to allow that there was some rock-throwing from both sides.) Perhaps the key is this (for me): make points about the comic on the comic forum. Try to be like Facepuke, and post my own ideas, rather than respond to other peoples (especially if I diametrically oppose them).

[Colin YNWA]

I felt bad about my part in that. I normally avoid The Politics Thread and threads of that nature cos I can talk to friends and colleagues about those sorts of things in more suitable environments. I come here to talk comics and nerd stuff as there's not many folks I can do that with in the 'real world' and you folks are by far the nicest I've found on the Internet (GROUP HUG)

Then for whatever reason I wondered in there, as I occasionally do. Got completely insensed - bad day at work probably playing into it and bite. The trouble is lots of other folks were making the same points , with calmer heads and less nasty snark than I mustered and so I just felt I contributed to a pile on. I was so unhappy with myself, especially as it seemed Shark maybe be banned (??? I've no idea) or as suggested felt the need to run for cover. He certainly hasn't posted since.

So I need to pull my neck in and as Funt Solo says use this place for the reason I have 97% of the time I come here to talk about comics.

And not try to win agruments, it won't work... well unless some fools decide Origins is better than The Cursed Earth, there are some fields I will die upon...

[broodblik]

The main reason that most of us start posting here was about one thing and one thing only and that is the love for comics and  specifically the love for 2000AD.

The politic thread is for me a sideshow I try not to read or post in those type of threads. Most cases I cannot even comprehend what the politics is about since I am outsider.

So let us focus on the important stuff in life like comics, books and films

[paddykafka]

So let us focus on the important stuff in life like comics, books and films

So I guess "To Crush Your Enemies! To See Them Driven Before You! And To Hear The Lamentations Of Their Women!" has fallen out of favour then? Sigh!

[broodblik]

So let us focus on the important stuff in life like comics, books and films

So I guess "To Crush Your Enemies! To See Them Driven Before You! And To Hear The Lamentations Of Their Women!" has fallen out of favour then? Sigh!

In my younger days when the world stood ready to be conquered and beer was flowing from the taps. Now that t-shirt has faded and the moths had its revenge on it. The good old days !!!!

[Mister Pops]

[Dog Deever]

Normally what happens is that we vote on the thrill-power of each argumentation before the last pack of popcorn is finished.

I'm giving it a low score I'm afraid- I'm disappointed nobody mentioned Great Tartaria to be honest. I have a picklehaube antenna installed on my Tartarian hat and can't seem to get any free electric, though I can appreciate I might be too far away from a church organ or some other obvious thing I might have missed.
Anyway, I thought the Dictators of Zrag were behind all the worlds ills.

Shit happens, people get heated and any group will inevitably fall out at various points- Future Shock Syndrome sets in or perhaps some thrill-circuits get burned out...
The fall-outs here are pretty tame next to much of the rest of the internet- even the blatant mud-slinging is remarkably restrained for the most part. It just looks like two guys getting frustrated with each other and I don't think there was anything truly nasty or despicable said, I'm guessing it got locked down because it just didn't have anywhere to go from where it was at.
Some wheelie-bin fires need to just have the lid closed, be quietly wheeled into a neighbouring garden and everyone walk away whistling, checking if anyone noticed while vowing to never speak of it again (and stealing the neighbours bin, obviously).

Rigellian hotshots all round and offenders have to read a Fleischer story before they are allowed to argue again.
I'm sure LS will be okay- he's a remarkably resilient and immensely affable guy, whatever anyone thinks of his views.

[JayzusB.Christ]

Me, I was pretty pissed off with the Shark in the end, for transforming what was, for me at least, a positive thread that provided some kind of support into, well, his kind of thread and inevitably giving the mods no option but to finish it. I was planning never to visit it again anyway; it was beginning to make my blood simmer and I know I wouldn't have changed any minds anyway.

But at the end of the day, much as I hate some of his opinions and how he argues them, I like the Shark, and I'm wondering, but haven't dared ask:  is he banned now?

Personally I normally find the Politics thread interesting - in fact sometimes it's one of my main sources of information re. current events.   

[The Legendary Shark]

"AN ERROR HAS OCCURRED!
Sorry The Legendary Shark, you are banned from using this forum!
Banned for seven days for spreading
misinformation during a public health
emergency, ignoring a previous warning.
This ban is set to expire 06 April 2021,
12:54:43."

Ban over.

I find it disappointing that the responsible party didn't let you know they banned me and I didn't just slink off - especially since the question was raised.

Thanks for your kind words, Dog - that afternoon we spent sitting on those Glaswegian steps in the sunshine with Colin seems a million years ago now. (Where you in the bar when SB, whom I've never met, sat there giving me the evils all night? That was odd!)

Thanks also for the emails of support, it's nice to know that not everyone is afraid to entertain (if not accept) ideas other than the popular or "safe" ones, and that having different opinions is not as dangerous, heretical or evil as arbitrary censorship. Still, it is a comics forum so I suppose every other topic of discussion is beyond the pale. I suggest locking every topic not connected with our beloved 2000AD to avoid friction. Censor the site from orbit, it's the only way to be sure.

Anyhoo - onwards and upwards.

[Tjm86]

Not sure that we need to go so far as to lock any and all non-tooth related threads.  It is nice to know that your absence was only temporary.  Personally I'm in the 'nah, don't follow you there' camp when it comes to some of your positions but at least you have the courage of your convictions.

I think Jayzus made a valid point though, sometimes folks aren't likely to change their minds in a hurry.  No point fretting over it or casting aspersions (unless you're a Tory voter in which case there is a special circle of Hell reserved for you and your ilk ....  )

[Jim_Campbell]

Still, it is a comics forum so I suppose every other topic of discussion is beyond the pale. I suggest locking every topic not connected with our beloved 2000AD to avoid friction. Censor the site from orbit, it's the only way to be sure.

I'd politely observe that general guidance was given on a specific topic with potential to do real-world harm, and that you were advised, more than once, when your posts had crossed a line that the forum's owners, administrators and moderators have every right to both draw and enforce.

[The Legendary Shark]

No comment.

[Leigh S]

Define the word "arbitrary" - good to see you've come back, having taken on board the reason for the ban & determined to turn over a new leaf, though TLS! :p

Thanks also for the emails of support, it's nice to know that not everyone is afraid to entertain (if not accept) ideas other than the popular or "safe" ones, and that having different opinions is not as dangerous, heretical or evil as arbitrary censorship. Still, it is a comics forum so I suppose every other topic of discussion is beyond the pale. I suggest locking every topic not connected with our beloved 2000AD to avoid friction. Censor the site from orbit, it's the only way to be sure.

Anyhoo - onwards and upwards.

[The Legendary Shark]

No comment