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Author Topic: The Political Thread  (Read 1696217 times)

Professor Bear

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #18345 on: 24 March, 2021, 07:22:13 PM »
Apparently, Labour are actually more electable than ever now the grown ups are back in charge, and the real problem is people talking the party down and not keeping the faith.  Oh, and don't forget the all-powerful hard left Cultural Marxists who want Labour to lose*.

/clears throat
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* Actually, they probably have a valid point with this one - I know I definately never want bootlickers and right-wing psychopaths to win elections.

Funt Solo

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #18346 on: 24 March, 2021, 08:19:54 PM »
Would the Liverpool thing have happened if the council hadn't been doing dodgy deals?
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IndigoPrime

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #18347 on: 24 March, 2021, 08:22:50 PM »
Labour needs to understand the electoral maths has changed. Blair didn’t realise he was a blip and, frankly, had been elected in the usual unrepresentative manner. Corbyn never got to grips with this either. Starmer has wobbled a bit towards PR, but is still lukewarm on it. But until Labour can get over itself and learn to work with others, there is no path to a Labour win.

The choice is stark: perennially be the biggest losers, yelling into the void while the Tories fuck everything up, or regularly lead (and be the biggest power within) a coalition that’d likely include the Greens, the Libs and possibly nats, depending on how the election goes. Also thereby ushering in an age of more cooperative and collaborative politics than the us vs them shitshow we’ve long had and that’s responsible for so many of the problems in this country.

Funt Solo

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #18348 on: 27 March, 2021, 01:03:46 AM »
While Keir Starmer avoids taking on any fights he can't win, but has yet to realize that means he'll never take on a fight, north of the border we have Alex Salmond trying his his best to win independence for Scotland by ... splintering the SNP and providing endless miles of negative headlines.

This got farcical quickly today when someone told him that he should be pronouncing "Alba" as "Alabar" and he spent almost all of his excruciating interview on C4 News referring to his new splinter group as "Alba Alabar", which started to sound a lot like Allahu akbar.

Oh, good grief.
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Professor Bear

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #18349 on: 27 March, 2021, 01:40:50 AM »
George Galloway 2.0 is online.

Content Warning for police violence: cops cover their names and badges before laying into protestors yet again.  ACA - and I cannot stress this enough - B.

Dandontdare

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #18350 on: 27 March, 2021, 02:30:47 AM »
I'm getting a little pissed off with labour activists who are outraged at a "Tory takeover" of Liverpool but never got outraged about decades of graft and corruption.

Tjm86

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #18351 on: 27 March, 2021, 09:11:13 AM »
I'm with you on that one.  TBH the more I learn about the party the more disturbed I become.  I'm just keeping in mind the quality of our local MP and AM.  Both of a completely different stripe it seems.

It really does feel a bit like the central party and that of some of the major cities is the problem.  The only thing is it does pale compared to the level of graft that we've seen from those connected to a certain other party ...

British politics is rapidly making the most corrupt, disturbing banana republic look like the model of British democracy.

IndigoPrime

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #18352 on: 27 March, 2021, 11:40:57 AM »
I'm getting a little pissed off with labour activists who are outraged at a "Tory takeover" of Liverpool but never got outraged about decades of graft and corruption.
Or how the Tories don’t have the moral right to dismantle everything good about the UK because they didn’t win a majority of the vote and yet won’t get behind PR in enough numbers to make a difference, because that means Labour wouldn’t ever be able to pull the same trick either.

It’s depressing, really. The Tories are awful and directly to blame for all the shit that’s happening now. But if Labour had at any point from 1997 onwards got over itself and recognised it could transform British politics—albeit at the cost of Labour never winning a majority again—things could have been very different today.

Professor Bear

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #18353 on: 27 March, 2021, 12:17:12 PM »
Maybe I'm getting too old, but I don't know if the Northern Independence Party are a real thing or yet another Reelpolitik podcast meme that's gotten out of hand again.  It's not even April and 2021 is giving me something that I genuinely cannot tell if it's a real political party or a shitpost.
Either way, it's great to see centrists filling their nappies with the old "but they'll split the vote and hand victory to the Tories for a generation!" canard, which as we know from the 2019 election isn't actually a problem for centrists when it's the LibDems doing it.

I'm getting a little pissed off with labour activists who are outraged at a "Tory takeover" of Liverpool but never got outraged about decades of graft and corruption.

I imagine most were unaware.  I certainly don't recall it being national news, even when the media were publishing absolutely anything they could that painted Labour in a bad light.

IndigoPrime

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #18354 on: 27 March, 2021, 02:39:36 PM »
Either way, it's great to see centrists filling their nappies with the old "but they'll split the vote and hand victory to the Tories for a generation!" canard, which as we know from the 2019 election isn't actually a problem for centrists when it's the LibDems doing it.
The 2019 election was a shitshow from almost everyone, bar, arguably, Plaid. The Libs were high on their own hubris. The Greens had plainly had enough of getting a kicking through standing down and losing short money. But it’s also disingenuous to blame what occurred on the Lib Dems. They, the Greens and Plaid formed a pact and invited Labour as well. Labour, as ever, regardless of who is in charge, not only declined to be a part of it (likely costing Labour dozens of seats) but also in a number of reports spent a shit-ton of time derailing Lib Dem seats in London, which otherwise would have trimmed the Tory majority.

This isn’t about centrists—it’s about representative government (something that Labour’s leadership to date has never had any interest in, but that many of its members have) and providing the framework for a future where the UK could have a progressive government and stop lurching back and forth whenever the colour of government switches from blue to red. (And, yes, I’m sure some people will scream BUT YELLOW TORIES about the Lib Dems. But they should 1. probably actually read their manifestos, and 2. recognise that in any coalition/Commons agreement Labour would be the driving force with probably 250-odd seats, with the Lib Dems and Greens each having 20–60, assuming the Greens could get over themselves on nuclear and whip red lines or the coalition could at least abandon the latter, if it had the numbers.)

It was interesting to see Best for Britain’s recent polling. Assuming Farage bottles it again (very, very likely), but Labour goes it alone, we’re all fucked. The Tories retain a sizeable majority. But if there was a smartly conceived pact, Labour would be very likely to lead a coalition and perhaps even has the numbers to take a majority itself. The price would almost certainly be PR (presumably AMS or STV), which would mean a future that involves consensus, collaboration and compromise. That Labour’s leadership during the Blair/Brown/Corbyn years would rather the Tories ruled the country if Labour couldn’t rule alone baffled me and continues to do so. It’s such a dated way of thinking about politics.

So the choice is between Labour being the biggest losers or frequent coalition leaders. And if Labour’s best argument is “you should vote for us to stop the Tories”, then that’s just not good enough. The UK throughout my entire lifetime has not by vote been a two-party system. Labour could choose to recognise that, but prefers not to because it also seeks power through the backing of a plurality (rather than a majority), rather than looking to a future where consensus and representation could win through. Given the party’s broadly excellent history in voting reform, its constant reluctance to do anything regarding the Commons is a horrible blind spot.

Naturally, I would prefer a Labour government of any stripe—Blair; Brown; Corbyn; Starmer—to any Tory equivalent. But what I really want is for the shape of the Commons to look much like whoever voted for it. The only route to that has ever been Labour. But I suspect Labour will never do anything about that and will after the (likely) 2023 General Election instead fume at Lib Dem, Green and Plaid voters for not backing Labour.

JayzusB.Christ

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #18355 on: 30 March, 2021, 09:01:30 PM »
I've just listened to today's The Daily podcast, and am absolutely horrified to see these voter suppression laws that Georgia has introduced now that it's getting way too purple for the Trump cult's* tastes.  Other former Republican stronghold states seem likely to follow suit.

My God, they are shameless, aren't they?  They don't even bother coming up with excuses any more for stopping minorities from voting. Democracy is dying, well, in darkness.

*Not a typo, though if it was, that would work too.

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Funt Solo

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #18356 on: 30 March, 2021, 09:32:57 PM »
Those are poor-form machinations from the Republicans. They're in a sticky situation, where the demographics suggest that they'll never win another election without doing one of two things:

1. Appealing to the ethnic minorities that they hate.
2. Removing the ethnic minorities that they hate.

They are going for option 2.
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Dandontdare

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #18357 on: 30 March, 2021, 11:50:56 PM »
I'm getting a little pissed off with labour activists who are outraged at a "Tory takeover" of Liverpool but never got outraged about decades of graft and corruption.

I imagine most were unaware.  I certainly don't recall it being national news, even when the media were publishing absolutely anything they could that painted Labour in a bad light.

Private Eye's been chronicling 'Uncle' Joe's shenanigans for years, but you only need to have watched Our Friends in the North or had any interaction whatsoever with local politics in a safe northern stronghold to be as shocked as Captain Renault. In these long term investigations, when you actually have enough to make an arrest is crucial, but the overly dramatic timing and nature of his and Del Boy Hatton's capture does smack of a bit of a stunt.

Indigo Prime - that's about the most sensible and concise description of the current situation that I've seen.

I've just listened to today's The Daily podcast, and am absolutely horrified to see these voter suppression laws that Georgia has introduced now that it's getting way too purple for the Trump cult's* tastes.  Other former Republican stronghold states seem likely to follow suit.

My God, they are shameless, aren't they?  They don't even bother coming up with excuses any more for stopping minorities from voting. Democracy is dying, well, in darkness.

*Not a typo, though if it was, that would work too.

Whilst there is a discussion to be had about proof of ID (I was shocked even at 18 to learn that as long as I gave my name and address and they could find it with the big book and ruler, I could vote), but the rest of it is pure evil shite - making it illegal to give water to people who have to stand in line for hours at the fewer polling stations for less time in the Georgia heat .. oh yeah, that's going to cut down a lot of thirst-based voter fraud. The president is (naturally) very limited in what he can do about state election laws. The republicans know (from demographics and birthrates if nothing else) that they can never win elections in some ares unless they stop people voting. Let's wait and see if Biden can come up with anything. They could always retaliate by making it illegal to give water to filibustering senators.

Meanwhile, back in a more sane and sensible country, it is proportionate to drag mourning women from a murdered woman's vigil, but not an IRA funeral, bunging £125k of taxpayers cash to your bit on the side is within the rules, breaking international law is official government policy, and nurses get applause and an effective pay-cut whilst useless chums get £37bn contracts. Hey ho.

Dandontdare

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #18358 on: 30 March, 2021, 11:54:40 PM »
Oh and are they really going to call this Brexit celebration Festival UK? FUK? Seriously?

Jim_Campbell

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #18359 on: 31 March, 2021, 12:11:30 AM »
Whilst there is a discussion to be had about proof of ID

Given the statistically insignificant indicidence of in-person voter fraud,* there really isn't. The main reason being that it's a fantastically inefficient means of influencing the result of an election, which is why no one does it.

*Both here and in the US. I mean, seriously, it's in the tens of thousandths of one percent of votes cast.
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