So if the other semis final is the clash of the classic writers (and there is a lot of room for argument there) this one is the clash of Rebellion era writers (and there is a lot of room for argument there two!). Fair to say though these two appeared in the third or even fourth wave of writers but has siginifcently helped shape the Rebellion era and I think we'll all agree we're happy they are still doing that to this day. So whatever era nonsense I spout the important thing is whose writing for Tharg do you prefer.
Ian Edginton - http://www.2000ad.org/?zone=droid&page=profiles&choice=IANE (http://www.2000ad.org/?zone=droid&page=profiles&choice=IANE)
OR
Dan Abnett - http://www.2000ad.org/?zone=droid&page=profiles&choice=DANA (http://www.2000ad.org/?zone=droid&page=profiles&choice=DANA)
What is all this nonsense you ask well we're finding out whose 2000ad (Meg and associated items) writing do you prefer? Voting - just add a comment here with whose work you prefer (and anything else you might wish to say to discuss their work). This vote closes some time early Thursday 25th June?
Want to know more https://forums.2000ad.com/index.php?topic=46552.0 (https://forums.2000ad.com/index.php?topic=46552.0)
We'll have a final soon.
Erm... Subject title says Ian Edginton or Pat Mills, but vote is Ian E or Dan A.
We might get Pat Mills v Pat Mills in the final!
I'm voting Edginton this time around.
Dan Abnett.
Pretty easy choice for me here.
Hope you get a mod to change the title of the thread though.....
Now I love Barney - we all do- but that entry for Dan Abnett seems strange. It doesn't list Brink or Lawless under "Creator Credits" and these are his two greatest works.
But it does list his most recent, Feral and Foe, so it's not that it hasn't been updated.
So.....name missed off thread title, most important works not listed....seems like Abnett's got his work cut out to win this...
Quote from: davidbishop on 21 June, 2020, 07:23:34 AM
Erm... Subject title says Ian Edginton or Pat Mills, but vote is Ian E or Dan A.
Yep me being an idiot. I copy and paste old lines and changed the people involved... except it would seem in this case. Its defo Ian vs Dan and if any lovely mods would like to save my blushes
Sorry folks.
Just to confirm this is definately
IAN EDGINTON OR DAN ABNETT
Hmmm and hmmm. I like them both a lot, great storytelling styles and world-building. On balance, the only thing that tips this is Ian's tendency to leave threads dangling, which is as much a recognition of his creativity as anything else. So by the very tiniest of margins, Dan Abnett.
DAN ABNETT
Abnett, to me, seems to have much more range than Edginton. There's a lot more variety in his stories, in terms of theme, genre, scope, scale and tone. He also has a more impressive record when it comes to creating iconic characters. He's never written anything (for my tastes) that knocks it completely out of the park - but I've never read Lawless, so maybe that's his creative peak. Anyway, the vote is for Dan Abnett.
Abnett
I'm so glad at least one of these semis is an easy one for me- Dan Abnett.
The problem is going to come if he wins this round and faces either Pat Mills or Alan Moore in the final. How do I call that one? Already you're making me choose between two of the most significant writers I have ever read, and I've needed two cups of coffee to even get this far.
Anyway, the last straightforward choice I will make in this tourney- Abnett, for Kingdom, Brink, SiniDex, Lawless, etc etc. But today mostly for that Kingdom story in the new Special- because it's my favourite comics thing this year so far.
SBT
Dan Abnett
This round is quite difficult for me since I have two of my favorite writers against each other. Both of these writers have some great stuff and both will be worthy winners but we can only choose one.
Dan's the man for me in this match up.
Y'know, I thought this one might be more contentious, but it's not looking that way at present...
Quote from: Greg M. on 21 June, 2020, 11:39:12 AM
Y'know, I thought this one might be more contentious, but it's not looking that way at present...
Yeah I thought both of these semis would be very, very close, but judging by the way this one is going so far that might not be the case. If and its still a significent if Dabnett carries this one off by a margin like this maybe, maybe, the final could be very interesting indeed? Lets see.
oh and THANKS MODS.
Quote from: Greg M. on 21 June, 2020, 11:39:12 AM
Y'know, I thought this one might be more contentious, but it's not looking that way at present...
Looks like it's just me being contrary again...
Quote from: Daveycandlish on 21 June, 2020, 12:38:58 PM
Quote from: Greg M. on 21 June, 2020, 11:39:12 AM
Y'know, I thought this one might be more contentious, but it's not looking that way at present...
Looks like it's just me being contrary again...
But this time you were the first voter, so either
everyone else is being contrary, or you were somehow preemptively contrary!
Dan Abnett.
Dan Abnett, all the way!
Now this is a tough one. Between them, these two have penned some if not most of my favourite thrills of the last few years.
I'm going with Edgin..no, Ab...no...aarrggh, I don't know!
Edginton, I think, only on goal difference.
Wow! Both such good writers. Dan impresses most with Insurrection, Lawless, Badlands & Brink. I appreciate the creativity of other series, but something like Sinister Dexter has been milked too long. In particular, the characterization in both Lawless and Brink are superlative.
Edginton's work is out of another time: The Red Seas - Underworld was like being transported back to a Ray Harryhausen movie. The pedigree of Scarlet Traces is obvious, but there's a modern sensibility to scenes in which Venutians on Earth are treated like third-class immigrants. The vibrant, fantastical imagineering of Brass Sun, Helium and Leviathan take us to other worlds we would never have otherwise witnessed.
Ian Edginton, then, for the magic.
There's a case that the best bits of the best Edginton strips are better than anything Abnett has written - but there's something so relentless about Abnett's presence in the Prog AND Meg that can't be pushed aside.
I've voted for and against both on the way to this semi-final, but I'm feeling good about giving my vote to
DAN ABNETT,
and it's pretty specifically for his 20+ years writing Sinister Dexter, a sustained piece of work that is rooted in humour but delivered plenty of thrills and ideas, too. That golden period from Oh Kal Cutter up to the War of the Moses was quite something. Even pop stars are naming themselves after their favourite Sinister Dexter era,
Post Malone.
Ian Edington. Z
Although I like the more fantastical elements of Ian Edginton's stuff, this one goes to Dan Abnett. For relentlessly sustained quality over many years, only John Wagner is in the same league.
Impossible choice, both writers have contributed so much over the second half of the prog that the comic would be unrecognizable without either of them. The modern triumphs that are Brink, Lawless and Kingdom are easily matched by the heavyweights of Scarlet Traces, Stickleback and Brass Sun. And of course Feral & Foe square off nicely against Kingmaker. The impossibly long-running Sinister Dexter might have the edge over Red Seas, but the latter had the advantage of being a (-n almost) complete tale, with ties into Stone Island, Leviathan, and (probably) Helium to give it a bit more heft. Very evenly matched, these boys.
I think I'll have to go with Dan Abnett, partly because I think his characters have a tiny bit more warmth to them, also because I cannot resist a pun, and his are the absolute worst.
Ian Edginton
Quote from: TordelBack on 21 June, 2020, 08:38:35 PM
I think I'll have to go with Dan Abnett, partly because I think his characters have a tiny bit more warmth to them, also because I cannot resist a pun, and his are the absolute worst.
No better man to carry on that fine 2000ad tradition. The most contrived one, and thus my absolute favourite, was the Downlode restaurant called the Hot Pot 'n' News on the Square.
This has been a really tough one as both men are superb world builders able to craft great characters and thrilling narratives. It's really come down to the slimmest of margins. Much as I love Edginton's work I've got to give my vote to Abnett. Lawless and Brink are the two stories that made a subscription to Tharg's mighty organs a must-buy for me. If we'd had another series or two of Thistlebone this could have gone the other way though it really is very close.
I've been voting for both these creators up until now, think it's gonna have to be Dan Abnett, for Brink and Lawless, and the sheer durability of Sin Dex.
Quote from: sintec on 22 June, 2020, 09:32:25 AM
This has been a really tough one as both men are superb world builders able to craft great characters and thrilling narratives. It's really come down to the slimmest of margins. Much as I love Edginton's work I've got to give my vote to Abnett. Lawless and Brink are the two stories that made a subscription to Tharg's mighty organs a must-buy for me. If we'd had another series or two of Thistlebone this could have gone the other way though it really is very close.
Ian Edginton did not write Thislebone it was TC Eglington
Dan Abnett
Sorry Ian.
Quote from: broodblik on 22 June, 2020, 09:43:44 AM
Ian Edginton did not write Thislebone it was TC Eglington
You are correct - and there is an error on Barney (and insufficient coffee in my system):
Quote from: Barney
IAN EDGINTON
CREATOR CREDITS
American Gothic, Ampney Crucis Investigates, Detonator X, Interceptor, Kingmaker, Leviathan, The Red Seas, Stickleback, Stone Island, Thistlebone, Scarlet Traces
Quote from: Barney
THISTLEBONE
Created by Ian Edginton, Simon Davis
FIRST APPEARANCE IN 2000AD
Thistlebone
Thistlebone 10 episodes (Progs 2135 to 2144) 56 pages
Script: T. C. Eglington, Artist: Simon Davis, Letters: Annie Parkhouse
First episode double length.
Is there a good way to report such things to those with admin rights?
Quote from: sintec on 22 June, 2020, 09:58:18 AM
Is there a good way to report such things to those with admin rights?
Just shout at I, Cosh... or send him a PM at least.
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 22 June, 2020, 10:30:15 AM
Quote from: sintec on 22 June, 2020, 09:58:18 AM
Is there a good way to report such things to those with admin rights?
Just shout at I, Cosh... or send him a PM at least.
Do forget - as I said up thread the creator credits for Dabnett (i.e. the bit at the top of the screen) are missing Brink and Lawless. So just his best two series......just repeating in case that wasn't noticed.
Abnett. Prolific and consistently good. Hard to beat that combo.
Ian Edginton for me.
Pretty much love everything Ian has done and can't say the same about Abnett but he's never not good and his wares are broader and more pervasive. So a technical win to him while a tip of the hat and directors fortnight award to Ian.
This is a hard one. Giving it to Dan, by a small margin. Ian has great ideas, sometimes they don't seem to get seen through to the end. Dan's out put can be hit of miss for me, but when its hit its great. Dan must be in 3rd/4th place in terms of writing credits in the prog? Ian probably not far behind.
Quote from: maryanddavid on 23 June, 2020, 12:38:33 AM
This is a hard one. Giving it to Dan, by a small margin. Ian has great ideas, sometimes they don't seem to get seen through to the end. Dan's out put can be hit of miss for me, but when its hit its great. Dan must be in 3rd/4th place in terms of writing credits in the prog? Ian probably not far behind.
Yes that's a good point. How many unfinished stories does Edginton have? Ampney Crucis, Stickleback, Helium? There's undoubtedly some good stuff there, but wouldn't it be better to finish one before moving on to something else? I seriously hope the same thing doesn't happen to Kingmaker.
At least Stickleback is coming back but that is in prog 2200. I love his work but the problem as you guys stated is that he has so many unfinished work and then he starts a new series.
Dan
Quote from: Magnetica on 23 June, 2020, 05:29:26 AM
How many unfinished stories does Edginton have?
This is the problem with working exclusively with grand narratives - particularly ones that are often tonally similar. Although Edginton has a couple of 'title character' series, they're not written in the way that, say, Strontium Dog is - new scenarios, new adventures. It's interesting that everyone reckons Edginton's best story is Leviathan, because it's completely self-contained. I'm not saying don't write these kind of longform epics - just maybe have one appearing more frequently and have other stories that are either self-contained short runs or new adventures for a strong central character.
Quote from: Greg M. on 23 June, 2020, 08:41:32 AM
Quote from: Magnetica on 23 June, 2020, 05:29:26 AM
How many unfinished stories does Edginton have?
This is the problem with working exclusively with grand narratives - particularly ones that are often tonally similar. Although Edginton has a couple of 'title character' series, they're not written in the way that, say, Strontium Dog is - new scenarios, new adventures. It's interesting that everyone reckons Edginton's best story is Leviathan, because it's completely self-contained. I'm not saying don't write these kind of longform epics - just maybe have one appearing more frequently and have other stories that are either self-contained short runs or new adventures for a strong central character.
Sinister Dexter of course provides an interesting counterpoint to this and one that I'm sure will stir up a variety of opinions but for me this is Dabnett doing a great example of having a long form series, built around very strong central characters and formated in such a way that its always fresh.
The issue Greg raises is why Red Seas is by far my favourite work by Edginton as it has a wonderfully solid beginning middle and end. The irony being this could very possibly have been the very story that Greg eludes to when he says
Quote...just maybe have one appearing more frequently and have other stories that are either self-contained short runs or new adventures for a strong central character.
And alas its had a wonderful end now!
The impression I get (and it's only an impression, because this was during my prog hiatus) is that for a long time, Sinister Dexter got mired in an interminable ongoing plot and completely lost its way. For me, the original format was best - lots of one-shots, interspersed with longer stories that moved things forward, delivered with very regular frequency.
Edginton would avoid the perception as the guy who doesn't finish stuff if some (not all) of his stories felt more complete in their own right. Get an idea, do a complete 10 part story with it, come back to it later if there's more to say - if there isn't, it ends where it ends, with threads wrapped up. I appreciate that's easier for me to say than it is to actually do, and I understand the temptation to create labyrinthine epics where you're constantly planting seeds to flourish a decade later. But if you're not careful, you end up as Chris Claremont!
Quote from: Greg M. on 23 June, 2020, 09:11:40 AM
The impression I get (and it's only an impression, because this was during my prog hiatus) is that for a long time, Sinister Dexter got mired in an interminable ongoing plot and completely lost its way. For me, the original format was best - lots of one-shots, interspersed with longer stories that moved things forward, delivered with very regular frequency.
This is a commonly held opinion which I've long pointed out is WRONG, WRONG WRONG you bunch of dunderheads I'll come around there and... ahem... sorry about that... to which I have an alternative view. Yep the popular view is War of the Moses lost its way, but having read it in isolation a couple of times how it always kept things on track, each episode nicely recapping what the reader needed to know at that point and making each chunk satisfying in its own right... but I'm the view of a minority with that view its fair to say. There was a fantastic strong narrative thread through it all to pull it all together.
Scheduling seems to have played a part in the problems as well.
The point being that I've always found Sinister Dexter a fantastic vehicle for all sorts of story formats. The short done in one (or two, or three), the longer form 4-10 parter. The 'Book' or chapter format 10-15 episodes and even longer form stories told over many such chunks like those mentioned. Its the strips great strength for me, that and the morally ambigeous, but utter charismatic leads.
I think Ian Edginton could of had that with Red Seas, and possibly Stickleback come to think of it but has gone for the 10-12 episode chunks format instead. Which is cool, but does hang him out to the problems you highlight.
In Greg's sense Edginton has plenty of 'complete' stories to his name, though. There was nothing about the first two series of Scarlet Traces that didn't feel complete on their own; ditto Stone Island - I was genuinely surprised when that came back for more, and while American Gothic could have continued it worked fine as one story (we'll glide over Detonator X and Interceptor, except to say they're over). All bar the last book of Stickleback worked fine as standalone stories. Aforementioned Red Seas and Leviathan were done, but with connections to further strips. I suspect the perception comes from Brass Sun and Ampney Crucis because both consciously end each book a cliffhanger, and Helium because it never got going, but Kingmaker still very much in the current rotation.
Keeping a range of interesting ongoing visually-strong stories going seems as important to the health of the comic as a rapid churn of done-in-one 10 parters, and I think perhaps expecting the 'Strontium Dog model' is asking a lot of writers when Wagner & Grant SD and maybe pre-Horned God Sláine are really the only adventure strips that managed it successfully. Maybe GFD Rogue, but less so.
It will be interesting to see if when Stickleback returns if its used to wrap the series up, or whether its going to open things out again.
The one I hope gets a platform to get wrapped up is Brass Sun which is a fantastic series and its very specifically quest based nature means it needs an ending.
The problem will remain - I suspect but clearly don't know - that both series are so associated with very busy and popular artists that it might be their availability and time that is the issue, rather than Ian's scripts?
Good point - particularly unfortunate that Brass Sun shares its art god with the prog's current most popular (and prolific) non-Dredd strip. But for any Helium, Scarlet Traces and Stickleback log-jam, Ian only has himself to blame! (I know another solution has been found for Helium).
Quote from: TordelBack on 23 June, 2020, 11:22:47 AM
In Greg's sense Edginton has plenty of 'complete' stories to his name, though. There was nothing about the first two series of Scarlet Traces that didn't feel complete on their own; ditto Stone Island - I was genuinely surprised when that came back for more, and while American Gothic could have continued it worked fine as one story
Fair points - these are predominantly stories from when I wasn't reading the prog, so I'll confess my ignorance: Stone Island and American Gothic weren't on my radar.
Quote from: TordelBack on 23 June, 2020, 11:22:47 AM
I think perhaps expecting the 'Strontium Dog model' is asking a lot of writers when Wagner & Grant SD and maybe pre-Horned God Sláine are really the only adventure strips that managed it successfully. Maybe GFD Rogue, but less so.
Absolutely GFD Rogue Trooper. Plenty of others - I won't list them here, but there's surely no shortage of 2000AD stories that are about a main character (or characters) having different, separate adventures, of varying lengths (and varying quality, depending on the writer.) I don't think that format is a problem.
And let's not forget that Brass Sun and Kingmaker seem to be in the same 'space' as it were.
Quote from: Greg M. on 23 June, 2020, 11:49:44 AM
Absolutely GFD Rogue Trooper. Plenty of others - I won't list them here, but there's surely no shortage of 2000AD stories that are about a main character (or characters) having different, separate adventures, of varying lengths (and varying quality, depending on the writer.) I don't think that format is a problem.
It's clearly very challenging, though - are there really that many in that open-ended model that are very good, outside of comedy strips like Ace Trucking, Robohunter, Survival Geeks, or Pat Mills gang-gets-together gang-breaks-up gang-fights-another-gang cycles? Rennie may seem to have the action side of that market cornered, but even his series evolve into sequential cliffhangers (Absalom, Aquila) rather than characters-have-discrete-adventures-in-a-setting.
I had high hopes for the wonderful Damnation Station and Grey Area but both headed for the epic storyline exit. Recent entrant to this SD structure Skip Tracer has been less than universally embraced, and perennial example Sinister Dexter (also largely a comedy) attracts no small amount of criticism...
Quote from: TordelBack on 23 June, 2020, 01:39:12 PM
It's clearly very challenging, though - are there really that many in that open-ended model that are very good, outside of comedy strips like Ace Trucking, Robohunter, Survival Geeks, or Pat Mills gang-gets-together gang-breaks-up gang-fights-another-gang cycles?
I wouldn't characterise Ace Trucking, Robo-Hunter or Sinister Dexter as pure comedy strips, even though they're clearly more comedic than, say, Rogue Trooper - they still have an edge to them. But they're certainly amongst the ones I was thinking of.
Other ones? Armoured Gideon - four stories, all pretty different. Luke Kirby - broadly about Luke growing up, but four separate adventures. Dandridge - probably fits with your comedy stories (as, of course, does Big Dave!) Here's a few substantial ones though - Anderson, Psi-Division; Missionary Man, Shimura and Devlin Waugh. All Dreddworld, of course.
Points all! Probably an issue for me that Shimura, Missionary Man and about 20 years of Anderson do nothing for me, and Armoured Gideon not much more, art aside. Or to put it another way, I'd prefer pretty much any of the latter day '12 part books' strips to any of those.
Luke Kirby and Devlin Waugh are incontestable examples of success, and also two of the comic's greatest strips. I'm probably bring unfair excluding the more comedy-based strips, I suppose I'm thinking that it's easier* to do funny little vignettes where the gag is the goal (Dandridge a good example of something that goes further).
I'm certainly not arguing against the Strontium Dog model, a strong character in short adventures over a long residency is perfect for my tastes, I just think it must be immensely difficult to get right, not just the setup but the relentless devouring of ideas and situations** - and the prog is littered with the corpses to prove it.
*For a very specific interpretation of 'easy'.
** Compare it to a book of Brass Sun, for example. One main location, some new characters, a challenge, a setback, a revelation and a cliffhanger - gets you 12 parts and the first chunk of the next book. A postulated Adventures of Wren in Clockwork World OTOH conceivably requires that level of invention every couple of weeks.
I wonder why I've never tired of Dredd, but definitely have tired of Sinister Dexter. Is it Mega-City One? The city is always in peril, and is a living, breathing beast that we care about. Downlode? It's a great setting: you can add bits on as needed, and fill it with puns. But it's not in peril, and it's not a place I (or the characters) care about. It's not even consistently home.
The formula is writ large, and so it comes across as formulaic. Even to the extent that when things got multi-dimensional and there was too much backstory to contend with, the solution was just to pretend none of it had happened. So that we could get more ... of the same.
Sinister Dexter works as a very character-specific Tharg's Future Shocks replacement. You can put it in any prog, in any order, as much or as little as you like. Any artist. Any writer? Tharg's Future Puns (featuring Irish Vincent Vega and Jules "Snipes" Winnfield).
I know - it's an anthology. I get to enjoy the other stuff. (And I did enjoy early Sin Dex ... it just got boring and repetitive. Perhaps the problem is that I continued reading the comic? For new readers, it would still feel fresh and exciting.)
Quote from: TordelBack on 23 June, 2020, 04:52:31 PM
Compare it to a book of Brass Sun, for example. One main location, some new characters, a challenge, a setback, a revelation and a cliffhanger - gets you 12 parts and the first chunk of the next book. A postulated Adventures of Wren in Clockwork World OTOH conceivably requires that level of invention every couple of weeks.
It's a fair point, but your parallel universe version of Brass Sun sounds so much more my cup of tea, in terms of pacing and turnover of ideas!
Personally I love Sinister Dexter and think (as Colin has said) that it can do long and short form stories equally well. Not sure about the "any writer" part mentioned above - I'm pretty sure every episode has been written by Dabnett and its one reason I voted for him. For what it's worth I think Grey Area is also equally suited to long and short form stories.
Picking up a point from a bit earlier, I'm not sure format is the issue with Edginton having so many stories that haven't been wrapped up. Surely he just needs to concentrate on them and get them done before starting something else (?).
I always wanted a few more Downlode Tales - not the post-Eurocrash-Sinister-Dexter-fallen-out-but-will-clearly-make-friends-again ones, but the ones that focused on other characters and aspects of the city. Clearly inspired by Tales from Mega City One, but in a good way - Downlode is very different from Dredd's world and lots of fun, and I still think the Pulp Fiction cosplay duo could step out of the way now and again and give us a look at what's going on elsewhere.
Well its been a hearty debate and lots of love for both fantastic writers, no surprise there. But if you haven't already its time to make a call as this one will close in the morning (Thursday) first thing.
We have a final coming...
Quote from: Funt Solo on 23 June, 2020, 05:16:44 PMI wonder why I've never tired of Dredd, but definitely have tired of Sinister Dexter. Is it Mega-City One?
For me, the central premise is flawed. Like Terminator 2 (now he's a good guy!), this one's "assassins with a conscience" never really clicked. That's not to say I can't enjoy the better tales, but Sin/Dex for me always feels too much like filler, and the ongoing arcs have been convoluted and not that exciting for me.
Abnett, though, is a force of nature; and although his output is variable in terms of quality, he hits some seriously impressive highs. Brink and Kingdom are two of my favourite 2000 AD strips ever. Lawless in the Meg is superb. Grey Area could have joined that, had it not suffered from a blind spot when it comes to being frequently sexist.
Edginton has a lot of imagination and also some fantastic world-building. Scarlet Traces is an excellent example—although I'll admit to preferring the series prior to the 2000 AD run. Brass Sun is a wonderful tale, Leviathan is a first-rate one-and-done, and Stickleback had me hooked until the last reveal.
For me, it's
Abnett, by a nose. Ultimately, it's the pace of series that nail it for me. Wherever the scheduling issues lie, that might not be Edginton's fault per se, but it does take the edge off of his output. That said, this was not an easy choice.
VOTING CLOSED - but feel free to add votes and comments but the call is made.
After an opening salvo this one quickly took a similar track as the other semi. While there was much love for both writers and the vast contribute that Ian Edginton has given to the Tharg, the world's he's created and quests he's set off on have been much saluted it was the other writer that won the vast majority of those title calls. If each vote was close the actual final tally wasn't and
DAN ABNETT
Makes it to the final.
The other thing to note is that this thread had some glorious exchanges about the writers work. Thanks everyone.