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I'm in two minds about this. On the one hand, it would be the loss of a great character. And from a business point of view it might be considered crazy, wiping out a "franchise" that is synonymous with 2000ad itself.

But on the other hand, I really don't want to see Dredd dragged on and on forever, like Superman or Batman, until the whole thing becomes washed out. The death of judges, even established characters, has never been glossed over in the stories. One of the low points of the series, I think, came when Ennis was portraying Dredd as some kind of superhuman who could fight off hundreds of perps without breaking a sweat. Wagner's current portrayal of the aging Dredd, with frequent references to him "not being as fast as he used to be" and how he expects to die in the line of duty sooner or later, is far more powerful.

Trouble is, the longer Dredd's "decline" is dragged out the less powerful it becomes dramatically. There were references to him slowing down 20 years ago. If he's still complaining about his creaking bones 20 years from now, well, the whole thing will have become kinda a joke.

So whattaya think? Should he just be bumped off and the title changed to, I dunno, "Judge Beeny"? Should the whole thing be rebooted from zero? (Nooo!) Or should we trust in the writers to keep the character fresh forever and ever and ever?     

I can understand where this idea is coming from, in the real time way that this British character will never have a rollback and new origin like The main US characters do.
   You are suggesting killing the main character, though, which cannot be taken back. (incidentally, how does Alan Grant feel about Wagner chucking two of his published story ideas into the trash?).
   I don't think it can happen.
Interesting question though.

Quote from: Onlyverysmall on 08 April, 2012, 11:54:40 PM
I can understand where this idea is coming from, in the real time way that this British character will never have a rollback and new origin like The main US characters do.
   You are suggesting killing the main character, though, which cannot be taken back. (incidentally, how does Alan Grant feel about Wagner chucking two of his published story ideas into the trash?).
   I don't think it can happen.
Interesting question though.

I'm still not sure what I think of Alpha's resurrection, myself. His death was a really powerful moment in the comic's history. When I saw the episode of Spaced where they mention being traumatised by "Johnny Alpha being killed by that big flying thing," I knew exactly what they meant.

Oh, yeah, it was a big event. In a way, he died before with Wulf, then this, and then with the gronk/Feral story in which his soul has in some kind of 'body of pain'. You can shrug and say "It's just a comic" or you can man the barricades!
   I think there is some way of comparison in terms of the;

British-

Doctor Who and Judge Dredd

US-

Star Trek and Superman


I find that in Star Trek continuity isfar more important than in Doctor Who. They even cast Freema Agyamang as two different characters, that would not happen in Star Trek.

This is turning into an essay, so I'll stop there. I started something I couldn't finish.

With regards to if we'll ever see Dredd being killed off, i kinda doubt it - or at least i cant imagine it ever happening, but eventually he'll get just too old for the job.
With that in mind, ive always been intrigued by that scene in Origins, when Fargo says to Joe and Rico, that he's going back into suspended animation, and that the medical team have a "fool idea of putting my essence into another body".
Summat similar on the cards for Dredd, when the time comes?

Quote from: Judge Jack on 09 April, 2012, 12:34:39 AM
With regards to if we'll ever see Dredd being killed off, i kinda doubt it - or at least i cant imagine it ever happening, but eventually he'll get just too old for the job.
With that in mind, ive always been intrigued by that scene in Origins, when Fargo says to Joe and Rico, that he's going back into suspended animation, and that the medical team have a "fool idea of putting my essence into another body".
Summat similar on the cards for Dredd, when the time comes?

That sounds very plausible to me Judge Jack. Literally keeping Joe on ice till the darkest hour when hes needed again, which in all probability he wouldnt be in there that long.

Mark Millar had a similar idea in Red Razors: a Dredd or clone on ice when needed -then sold to the Sovs- needless to say it was a bad idea then and it's a bad idea now along with brain transplants/body-switching etc. If he were to die, which he won't and doesn't need to for a long time yet, it won't be some lingering open-ended thing but final.

A 70 year-old in the 22nd century may not plausibly be as decrepit as one in the 21st so the ageing problem can play out a lot longer still.

Quote from: JOE SOAP on 09 April, 2012, 01:46:01 AM
Mark Millar had a similar idea in Red Razors: a Dredd or clone on ice when needed -then sold to the Sovs- needless to say it was a bad idea then and it's a bad idea now along with brain transplants/body-switching etc. If he were to die, which he won't and doesn't need to for a long time yet, it won't be some lingering open-ended thing but final.

A 70 year-old in the 22nd century may not plausibly be as decrepit as one in the 21st so the ageing problem can play out a lot longer still.

Good point Joe I can see that being fed with stimulants, organ transplantation and the will to fight on would be feasible fr Joe to stay on till late 60s/70s .
As a matter of interest though at what age do Judges go on the "long walk" ?

The interesting thing about Dredd is that you could kill him off with out killing the franchise. Mega-City 1 and Justice Department have a life of their own beyond Dredd the man. Dredd has always been a vehical to explore his world more then a character with a deep personal story. Doing the samething without Dredd would be no large stretch. Name it 'Mega-City Justice' (or something) and make it an ensemble cast book featuring Beeny, Giant, and Rico as 'the next generation of The Law'. It could totally work.

I think when (and hopefully this is a long way off) John Wagner decides to retire, he gets the option of killing Dredd or he might do it before I suppose to keep us on our toes.

Judge Rico originally sported the Dredd badge too and changed it, so I'd imagine what would happen is Rico would switch back to his old badge to honour our fallen hero. It wouldn't be the same as Rico doesn't have the same status as Dredd so we'd see more of a focus on street level but it'd allow the Judge Dredd series to continue with a stickler for the law acting as our window into the wild world of MC1.

I'd be sad and shocked but life would move on.

Essentially agree with Emperor.  I don't want to see Dredd replaced, and I've no doubt that it would fundamentally devalue the strip, but I accept that it has to happen at some point.  Re-juves and brain transplants and outright stopping the clock would be a thousand times worse. 

Personally I am 100% AGAINST Rico putting on the Dredd badge and acting as the Dredd replacement. Primarily because, and this is the important bit, Rico is not Dredd. That's the entire point of Rico. He's his own man. Simply stepping into the old man's tight boots frankly would be a complete disservice to the character of Rico. Not to mention the most boring option available. And there is one thing Judge Dredd should never be, is boring.

I'd rather see Dredd undergo more and more and more implausible shelf-life extending super-science procedures to keep him around then see Rico simply wear the badge.

Here's how it could work:

Dredd defiantly faces an enemy, however due to age and fatigue, he is put into a situation where is unable to defeat this enemy without dying himself. Now this enemy should be somebody or something that poses a threat to the entire city, somethign similar to Total War. Dredd would give his life, passing the mantle onto Rico. Rico would accept the mantle, and in honour of the old man, change his name to Dredd. After all, he claimed the name Rico in order "to give it a second chance" (if memory serves me correctly), so perhaps he has a change of heart along the course of events leading to Dredd's death, and decides that Mega-City One NEEDS a Dredd, and that his service to the city is far more important than his personal quest to try and save the Rico name. In doing this, he is kicking aside a large chunk of his humanity, becoming the same machine that Dredd was. Then you simply do a quick relaunch, a brand new Dredd with a brand new history and mythos awaiting to be built.

By doing this we still have "Dredd" as the toughest law-man of Mega-City One to headline 2000AD (I'm talking about having Rico basically, for all intents and purposes, BE Dredd), whilst also getting around the pesky age issue. It wouldn't damage the Rico character either, in fact it would be a great piece of character development, to show how Rico failed to be independent in the shadow of the old man, and instead bended to the system and all it's flaws the same way the young Dredd did, before he became cynical and started questioning the law, banging on about mutant rights and what have you.

That I think could potentially work.

Failing that, nah, just clone Dredd a new body without a brain, transplant his brain into the new body, and hey presto, Dredd lives on.

Or!

Kill Dredd, then reveal there was a new Dredd clone just entering the streets, brand new Dredd, basicaly same character, now has to live up to the Dredd name as Dredd had to live up to fargo, starts small with street level crime, works his way up as the comic progresses, new relationships, new character to develop.

Tonnes of possibilities spring to mind, some of which save Dredd, others see him die but save the franchise and in a sense, keep the Dredd story going.

Quote from: The Adventurer on 09 April, 2012, 04:44:29 AM
Personally I am 100% AGAINST Rico putting on the Dredd badge and acting as the Dredd replacement. Primarily because, and this is the important bit, Rico is not Dredd. That's the entire point of Rico. He's his own man. Simply stepping into the old man's tight boots frankly would be a complete disservice to the character of Rico.

Well that's kinda my point - he might be called Judge Dredd (as he was originally) but he wouldn't be the same character despite there being similarities, obviously. However, there would be enough about him for him to feel familiar while we get used to him and his stories.

Quote from: Emperor on 09 April, 2012, 05:17:52 AM

Quote from: The Adventurer on 09 April, 2012, 04:44:29 AM
Personally I am 100% AGAINST Rico putting on the Dredd badge and acting as the Dredd replacement. Primarily because, and this is the important bit, Rico is not Dredd. That's the entire point of Rico. He's his own man. Simply stepping into the old man's tight boots frankly would be a complete disservice to the character of Rico.

Well that's kinda my point - he might be called Judge Dredd (as he was originally) but he wouldn't be the same character despite there being similarities, obviously. However, there would be enough about him for him to feel familiar while we get used to him and his stories.

The Rico option is definately a controversial one, but with the right writers on board, it could prove to be a great move, to see how he becomes molded and becomes "Dredd", through experience and what have you.

What's the deal with the rejuvenation process anyway? I presume it can't fully restore youth fully, as Dredd has had at least one rejuve job yet is still feeling the effects of age.


I think Dredd's boots are too big for any one character to step into. Maybe I just have memories of the "Kraken" storyline where Dredd's clone tries to do just that, and fails miserably. The Adventurer's idea of an ensemble cast might be the best bet. And I recall someone suggesting - might have been here, might have been on the reviews blog - that Dredd's brain/personality could be preserved in some Justice Dept. computer. That could work really well, continuing the Dredd/younger judges dynamic that's going on at the moment but allowing those younger judges to take centre stage.

Quote from: NorthVox on 09 April, 2012, 05:17:30 AMDredd would give his life, passing the mantle onto Rico. Rico would accept the mantle, and in honour of the old man, change his name to Dredd.

Man I don't know. Dredd would never do something that sentimental. He wouldn't give a stomm about his 'mantle' or legacy.

If anything, I could see Justice Department thrusting the Dredd name at Rico, with some belief that if there isn't a 'Judge Dredd' to put fear in the minds of would-be law breakers crime rates would go up city wide. And then Rico just has to deal with having this big legacy thrown on top of him without his consent.

Quote from: The Adventurer on 09 April, 2012, 05:40:25 AM
If anything, I could see Justice Department thrusting the Dredd name at Rico, with some belief that if there isn't a 'Judge Dredd' to put fear in the minds of would-be law breakers crime rates would go up city wide. And then Rico just has to deal with having this big legacy thrown on top of him without his consent.

Worked great for Kraken!

Quote from: TordelBack on 09 April, 2012, 05:50:40 AM

Quote from: The Adventurer on 09 April, 2012, 05:40:25 AM
If anything, I could see Justice Department thrusting the Dredd name at Rico, with some belief that if there isn't a 'Judge Dredd' to put fear in the minds of would-be law breakers crime rates would go up city wide. And then Rico just has to deal with having this big legacy thrown on top of him without his consent.

Worked great for Kraken!

Man, I have GOT to read that period of Dredd at some point. I keep putting off picking up Casefiles 13-15 for some reason. Necropolis is the last great Mega-Epic I still don't have under my belt.

I think he should be killed off and I am certain John Wagner will do this in spectacular fashion. After that, I would like to see stories from the first 15 years or so that are pre-prog 2.

I then think eventually the 'classic' strips could be re-interpreted in much the same way as Sherlock Holmes stories have been retold in different ways over the years.

The very nature of the strip, aging in real time means something has to happen sometime.

The thing is there are a couple of options. Kill Joe Dredd off and replace him with another character. A bit of me likes the idea of Rico for the reasons The Empire mentions, but don't think that'll happen for reasons I'll come to. Second option is to just sci-fi the problem away and 'de-age' Dredd. In a world with Stookie long established and the needs of the Justice Department seen as paramount, there's an easy option there, but a good writer could come up with numerous others I'm sure.

My preferred option is when John Wagner retires (hopefully not for a long time) Joe Dredd is killed (and definitely so) and replaced with a new character. That way whomever becomes the strips main writer and I'd like to see one writer take over the strip for at least a couple of years exclusively to establish themselves, can make the character their's without the burden of having to write a Wagner character.

Quote from: Judge Jack on 09 April, 2012, 12:34:39 AMive always been intrigued by that scene in Origins, when Fargo says to Joe and Rico, that he's going back into suspended animation, and that the medical team have a "fool idea of putting my essence into another body".

I suspect that might be Wagner having a wee dig at those who keep on saying Dredd should have the same, be it a full-brain transplant or a bio-chip upload.

Quote from: TordelBack on 09 April, 2012, 05:50:40 AM

Quote from: The Adventurer on 09 April, 2012, 05:40:25 AM
If anything, I could see Justice Department thrusting the Dredd name at Rico, with some belief that if there isn't a 'Judge Dredd' to put fear in the minds of would-be law breakers crime rates would go up city wide. And then Rico just has to deal with having this big legacy thrown on top of him without his consent.

Worked great for Kraken!

To be fair, though, Kraken didn't have fifteen years' training!

Well, I may be an unimaginative, senitimentail cock but I'd happily see the sci-fi cop out. Dredd without Dredd sounds like a awful idea to me.

We've seen body transplants and the like before, it's no big deal. This wouldn't make Dredd invulnerable, he'll still be in constant danger from snipers, terrorists and the like but it'd solve the ageing problem and, potentially, throw up new challenges for him.

While not perfect, it seems like a small sacrifice to keep Dredd the focus of his strip.

I always thought Dredd would become Chief Judge

Can just imagine him taking the long walk..

Personally, I'm against killing Dredd simply because I think there are far more potentially interesting stories to be told about a Dredd who's too old to keep doing the job than there are about the aftermath of killing him off.  Sure, make the switch to more ensemble storytelling (we're pretty much there already) and shift the action elements onto Rico and Beeny and co, but Dredd doesn't have to die to achieve any of that.  Far better to have him in the background as a recurring character and mentor figure and get glimpses of how he's handling being retired from the field.  There are plenty of options there - teaching at the academy, Chief Judge, the long walk - that we've seen teased before, but never really stuck with long enough to properly dig into.

...That said, if at any point we get wind of a new Wagner/Ezquerra Dredd story, I'm going to be biting my nails the whole way through.

I've just been re-reading the horrendous run of Tooth when Ennis & Millar were let loose on Dredd.  A few gems but mostly dross.

It really highlighted just how good John Wagner really is.  As soon as he re-appeared (e.g. Mechanismo saga, The Pit) the quality jumped straight off the scale.  How he keeps up such originality after all these years is a mystery.

However, given the long run that Dredd's had, even the Wagner droid has repeated himself on occasion.  (If I read another "Welcome to our town ... oh, by the way we're cannibals/vampires" or "lone gunman looking for righteous vengeance" story I shall scream.)

This current storyline (and I'm presuming it runs into a second saga after Chaos Day itself) is surely the last great Dredd we'll see.  I can't imagine that there is anything new to say, even under very good writers like Gordon Rennie and Mike Carroll.

Maybe it really is time to retire old Joe?

Don't kill him off, just give him lighter duties

(http://i1270.photobucket.com/albums/jj613/SpetsnaZ991/JDmobSc.jpg)

Lovely artwork!

I think they'll re sleeve JUDGE DREDD ala Altered Carbon style.

New body.

Same Dredd.

Quote from: WhizzBang on 09 April, 2012, 06:54:01 AM
I think he should be killed off and I am certain John Wagner will do this in spectacular fashion.

I would love to see this happen but I think that 2000AD editorial could never allow it. Why kill the goose that lays the golden eggs?

I've always assumed that Rico's purpose as a character was to act as a young Dredd, to replace Old Man Joe when the time comes. I think that the strong point of Day of Chaos so far is to move Dredd to a more managerial role, occasionally calling on him to do something heroic, but not superhuman. If the trend continues, then his eventual replacement as a street judge is inevitable. If that happens, then he'd only be an interesting character to use during big event stories

Since the character has evolved over time, it need not be the end of "Dredd" if Joe is replaced with Rico.

I'll go for the sci-fi option for Dredd, whether its brain/essence transplant or some kind of stookie/elixir of life type of thing (maybe by now they can synthesise a version in the lab, as opposed to killing loads of stookies!).
Would hate to see Rico become Dredd, and the Dredd strip replaced by Tales of Mega City 1.
If they did go down that route, it would run for a while but, fan boredom/dwindling figures/writers lack of interest, would mean theyd eventually bring back Joe somehow. Its happened before in comics.

With judges dropping like flies in the current saga, somehow I can see Dredd eventually being forced into the Chief Judge's seat, if only through sheer lack of any other suitable candidate.

I also, however, do not particularly see the problem with brain transplants / body swaps etc. as a solution to the problem. If it were inconsistent with Dredd's world as we already know it then of course it would be a massive cop out. The thing is, though, it isn't. We've already seen all manner of tech in Dredd's world which is leading up to that level even if it isn't fully there yet. It's hardly a leap to take it all the way, more of a baby step, a completely plausible advancement in technology given what we've already seen so far. Remember "Lips" Lazarus? It was clear the tech was nearly there even then, and that was over 30 years ago in Dredd's continuity.

I think we are diliberately not seeing much of Rico for the fact that he will eventually replace Dredd. When we first encountered Dredd he was already an established Judge with a plethora of experience. The same must go for Rico, He will have years of experience on the streets with a hardened reputation which is unknown to us, as it should be. The writers haven't really delved into Dredds first decades on the streets. Keep the enigma.




V

Always thought that he would be ordered by special decree from the Chief Judge to take stookie legaly because hes such an asset or he would get a brain transplant into a clone of himself or something and thus live forever...

Edit  I see its already been mentioned,I really should read more posts before I do.

Quote from: Mark Taylor on 09 April, 2012, 11:43:27 AM
I also, however, do not particularly see the problem with brain transplants / body swaps etc. as a solution to the problem. If it were inconsistent with Dredd's world as we already know it then of course it would be a massive cop out.

It may be consistent witht the mechanics of Dredd's world but it wouldn't be consistent with the mechanics of Dredd's character. Despite the odd adjustment like bionic eyes it wouldn't be Dredd's thing to linger and his progressive aging has shown us that he's willing to let things go a lot more and allow responsibility fall on those whom he has overseen like Beeny & Rico. After his closure with Rico, with Beeny it's like he's doing penance for how her life turned out, atoning for the manner in which her parents died and taking the qualities he'd admired in her mother and putting them to practical use. He is her surrogate father and I suspect much like Fargo was glad when his time came, Joe will too.


None of this needs to happen for years if need be and it would be pretty special if Wagner was the one to do it and proper order. Following that if there was a reboot or a re-setting of the clock to Joe's early years as he graduates, hangs around with Morphy and Rico, that'd be fine.

Quote from: JOE SOAP on 09 April, 2012, 12:21:09 PMIt may be consistent witht the mechanics of Dredd's world but it wouldn't be consistent with the mechanics of Dredd's character.

I appreciate that, but if it were to happen I actually never envisioned it as being Dredd's choice. More like Justice Department secretly having a back-up plan waiting in the wings in case Joe ever cops the big one in the field of duty, and when it finally does happen, 'bringing him back' whether he likes it or not.

It would no doubt mark another 'crisis of faith' in Joe's career, but like other such events the outcome would be inevitable, though the path taken to reach that outcome could be a journey in itself. Ultimately Dredd's personal belief that 'duty comes first' would win out and he would have to accept it, with whatever reservations he might nonetheless hold

Dear Grud please no re-boots, or early tales of Dredd. Least not in the Prog, maybe IDW's line will go down that route?
But lets face it, theyll never kill Dredd off - its not gonna happen. If it does ill eat my, and everyone else's hat (except for SBT's ).
Sorry to rain on peoples parades, but Dredd is very much a sci-fi character living in a very sci-fi world, theyll think of summat to keep him going for a few more decades yet. Whether by some kind of re-juve or whatever, theyll do it.

Quote from: Judge Jack on 09 April, 2012, 12:46:17 PM
Sorry to rain on peoples parades, but Dredd is very much a sci-fi character living in a very sci-fi world, theyll think of summat to keep him going for a few more decades yet. Whether by some kind of re-juve or whatever, theyll do it.

The bottom-line is the bean-counter but 2000AD is infamous for bucking the trend and it may be the case that they give Wagner something like Whatever happened to the Lawman of Tomorrow? as they did with Superman.

Quote from: Mark Taylor on 09 April, 2012, 12:34:16 PM

Quote from: JOE SOAP on 09 April, 2012, 12:21:09 PMIt may be consistent witht the mechanics of Dredd's world but it wouldn't be consistent with the mechanics of Dredd's character.

I appreciate that, but if it were to happen I actually never envisioned it as being Dredd's choice. More like Justice Department secretly having a back-up plan waiting in the wings in case Joe ever cops the big one in the field of duty, and when it finally does happen, 'bringing him back' whether he likes it or not.

It would no doubt mark another 'crisis of faith' in Joe's career, but like other such events the outcome would be inevitable, though the path taken to reach that outcome could be a journey in itself. Ultimately Dredd's personal belief that 'duty comes first' would win out and he would have to accept it, with whatever reservations he might nonetheless hold

That sounds like treading water and would ultimately hurt and weaken the character, if anything Dredd has been somewhat independent in his strength of character willing to throw a spanner in the works if he feels something's not right.

I hear what your saying Joe, and i dont disagree with your take on what Dredd is, but would even 2000ad have the nerve to kill off Dredd completely? Just cant see it. And of course 2000ad has flirted, fudged about and back peddled on this premise before.
If a character is to have an end, then thats what it should be. Full stop. Im not against, or at least can understand, Dredd coming to an ending - logically it must at some point, but how does real world logic really fit into any comic, especially a sci-fi one?
Just really dont like the idea of re-boots, re-inventions or early years setups etc. Think its tired, and been done to death, and very seldom - if ever works for long. Eventually, for whatever reason, Dredd would return.

Imagine The Beano without Dennis the Menace, or, for that matter, DC without Superman or Marvel without Spider-Man. Those are the closest equivalents. Scrapping Dredd would be insane. And while the city itself is a character, it's explored in other stripes (notably the excellent Low Life), but having that as a replacement for the Judge Dredd strip sounds bonkers to me. It would be marketing and commercial suicide.

Quote from: JOE SOAP on 09 April, 2012, 12:55:16 PMThat sounds like treading water and would ultimately hurt and weaken the character, if anything Dredd has been somewhat independent in his strength of character willing to throw a spanner in the works if he feels something's not right.

I'm not really convinced by that argument, I must say. Dredd threatened to resign over the mutant issue, but that was about the rights of a whole class of individuals. Even then he eventually settled on a compromise. I can't see him putting his own personal 'rights' over duty in the same way.

Not only that - even in recent stories, with Joe's influence in the ascendant, it's been made clear that when it comes right down to it he's still a tool of the justice department. His influence in certain areas is distinctly limited, his own precise place in the scheme of things being one of those areas.

Ultimately what would weaken Dredd's character would be to have him stubbornly resist the inevitable, regardless whether that's his death or the unnatural extension of his life.

In fact, I'd go as far as to say that Dredd's real strength of character has always been about how he's reacted when choice has been taken away from him, whether by the powers that be in the Justice Department as in Tour of Duty or by an event like the return of the Dark Judges in Necropolis.

But Judge Dredd as a strip could well continue without Joe Dredd the character as the led. The vast majority of the public wouldn't give too hoots, or even know the specifics and longer term fans would hopefully buy into a replacement if done well, after the fuss has died down?

Look at the Barry Allen, Wally West thing. Not characters as significant as Dredd but still a model that it can work and work well.

Having thought about it some more the main danger for me is the fact that at some point after this has happened a future editor (while Tharg's not looking) might look to reverse things to cash in on a quick bit of publicity and then things might get messy?

If they're going to reboot or kill him off and replace him with rico/ a robot/ a n other, then best do it now- before dredd has chance to really take off in the massive market that is the states. A million new readers neednt know nor care if the dredd they read about in their first ish is 'the' dredd from 2000AD, if the stories hit the same high marks and are a compelling as our dredd can be from time to time. Otherwise i'd say ignore all the ageing stuff and keep him active on the streets for the next thirty-five years and worry about it then. Move him away from his dramatic center, the mean streets of mega-city one, and you geld him. At that point you may as well be reading another strip- which as Low Life and Anderson have shown can be brilliant, but still not have that appeal that dredd has. I vote keep as is.

SBT

Yes immediately and then replace him with another clone...........











Hang on! haven't they done that a few times already?!?!?!?!?!?

Quote from: Large48 on 09 April, 2012, 02:42:30 PMHang on! haven't they done that a few times already?!?!?!?!?!?

No.

Quote from: The Adventurer on 09 April, 2012, 05:40:25 AM

Quote from: NorthVox on 09 April, 2012, 05:17:30 AMDredd would give his life, passing the mantle onto Rico. Rico would accept the mantle, and in honour of the old man, change his name to Dredd.

Man I don't know. Dredd would never do something that sentimental. He wouldn't give a stomm about his 'mantle' or legacy.

Exactly - the point is that Rico isn't Dredd. He after all picked the name Rico when he decided not to where the Dredd badge.

Quote from: The Adventurer on 09 April, 2012, 05:40:25 AMIf anything, I could see Justice Department thrusting the Dredd name at Rico, with some belief that if there isn't a 'Judge Dredd' to put fear in the minds of would-be law breakers crime rates would go up city wide. And then Rico just has to deal with having this big legacy thrown on top of him without his consent.

Yeah, I can see that angle working. The good thing is it'd introduce new angles and different ways you could tell the same story, which would be vital for when Wagner passes the baton on. That way the new writers can make this character their own, while there still being familiar enough elements in place for older fans of Dredd to hook into.

To have Rico at the Dredd mantle. Introducing old enemies to the thro not knowing the switch could give some dark, witty humour.



V

Not yet!

There's certainly nothing stopping the writers keeping J.D. round forever. They could implant his brain in a robot, time-snatch young Dredd from the past and have him take on the role, or aliens could descend from the sky and invest him with superpowers. Mega-City rejuvenation tech could make a sudden advance, allowing him to be rewound to the age of 18 whereupon he becomes a rapping social-worker Judge making 'say no to sugar' vid promos with hordes of dancing juves.

Wagner has been deliberately building up this "aging problem" for a while now though, and its given real depth to the character. A quick-n-easy fix would be a bit of a let down.

In the grand scheme of things another 20 years of life is a fair age until his brain needs to go into a robot etc so I don't think we really need to worry about it.

Quote from: Syne on 10 April, 2012, 04:14:50 AM
Wagner has been deliberately building up this "aging problem" for a while now though, and its given real depth to the character. A quick-n-easy fix would be a bit of a let down.

THis is an excellent point: Wagner does seem to have been deliberately working up to this, so presumably he knows exactly what he wants to do here. The fact that it may be 20 years off only makes him a master strategist :P

The fact that Dredd has aged in 'real time' suggests to me there is the possibility Dredd might go at some point. I don't know how I'd feel about that if I'm honest. Killing off Dredd...hmm...as others have said, the aging problem could be sci-fied away and it would make perfect sense. If that did happen, I'd hope at least the lead up would be worth it and soundly reasoned rather than a throw away in the middle of some standard yarn. I think the most obvious way would be to have Rico take on the Dredd badge, but even perps would notice that he'd lost a good 30-40 years!

As far as 'should' goes, well if you want a certain amount of realism or at least consistent character development, considering his attitudes have become more complex over time and that he is aging, then yes, at some point he should.


M.

Bio-Chip him, it's appeared in Dredd before it did in Rogue Trooper.

Quote from: Mikey on 10 April, 2012, 01:11:57 PM
I think the most obvious way would be to have Rico take on the Dredd badge, but even perps would notice that he'd lost a good 30-40 years!

Why does it have to be a secret?  Surely it'd be no problem to identify Rico publicly as a clone, and formally announce that he's taking over the Dredd badge.

Given that Dredd is more likely to die in the course of duty rather than step down, it allows for a proper state funeral and would also put the fear of a new, young, revitalised Dredd into perps' minds, which must be a good thing.

Clone replacement is the most believable.  But I'm sure there are many good, and not so good, ideas the professionals can come up with.

Personally I'm fine with Joe dying, so long as it is a good story and not throw away. Doesn't have to be Rico that replaces him, new clone would do.

As for who decides the name continues, makes more sense that it would be Justice Department.

Plus, new Dredd, younger Dredd... That is bad news for perps. His reactions are faster and his view of life and justice are straight out of the Academy.  He'd be harsher, no nonsense taking.

But then again... we've all had these thoughts and discussions before.  It'll all happen when and as...

Turn Dredd into fumetti so CF can get his 1000 quid's worth.

Rumour has it he gets replaced by a clone of Judge Burdis found in CF's cellar.

Quote from: W. R. Logan on 10 April, 2012, 02:25:54 PM
Bio-Chip him, it's appeared in Dredd before it did in Rogue Trooper.

Really? What story was that in?

Quote from: Syne on 11 April, 2012, 06:47:56 AM

Quote from: W. R. Logan on 10 April, 2012, 02:25:54 PM
Bio-Chip him, it's appeared in Dredd before it did in Rogue Trooper.

Really? What story was that in?

"Planet of the Body-Brokers" during in The Judge Child (Casefiles 4).  Planet in question is called Lesser Lingo, and there's some less-than-subtle Native American analogs, but I love the story and its glorious Ron Smith art.

Quote from: TordelBack on 11 April, 2012, 06:55:34 AM


"Planet of the Body-Brokers" during in The Judge Child (Casefiles 4).  Planet in question is called Lesser Lingo, and there's some less-than-subtle Native American analogs, but I love the story and its glorious Ron Smith art.

Ah, I see! I have one episode of that story in a second-hand prog, the one where they arrive on the planet just in time for the president to get kidnapped. From the bits I've read, the Judge Child saga looks like a lot of fun.

EDIT: Beaten to the punch by TB. Again.

Cracking Ron Smith art & eerily resonate with the contemporay situation in Afghanistan.

Which just goes to show how far we've come, eh?

At the time of Mechanismo I did a fan story idea where I used bio chips to get round Dredds dislike of robot judges although like all good Dredd stories it all goes wrong.
It's probably in a draw somewhere amongst all the other crap I have.

have Dredd and Rico get into a situation where only one of 'em walks out of. The other body's burned beyond up, only DNA tests can tell who it was (Which, of course, it can't, as they share the same DNA). The burned up body is wearing the Rico badge, the living the Dredd one. But is all as it seems?....

This would mean Rico takes up the Dredd mantle voluntarily - he's volunteering to step in to the old man's shoes, and trusting on the last few years on he streets (and the old man's advice, told in flashbacks) to keep the Dredd legacy continuing.

This is pretty much what I'd like to see. Plus, there could also be the mystery of how the real Dredd died - Wagner's told for years that one's clone in the bloodline's always gone bad - (Fargo and his brother in Origins, etc) - did Rico kill Dredd? You could keep this going for YEARS and not make to big a dent on continuity.

Quote from: DrRocka on 11 April, 2012, 01:06:05 PM
have Dredd and Rico get into a situation where only one of 'em walks out of. The other body's burned beyond up, only DNA tests can tell who it was (Which, of course, it can't, as they share the same DNA). The burned up body is wearing the Rico badge, the living the Dredd one. But is all as it seems?....

This would mean Rico takes up the Dredd mantle voluntarily - he's volunteering to step in to the old man's shoes, and trusting on the last few years on he streets (and the old man's advice, told in flashbacks) to keep the Dredd legacy continuing.

and what motivation would Rico have to be so secretive and disrespectful to his mentor and clone brother? -can't be too great a Judge to do that- besides Rico is clearly half Dredd's age anyway so it'd be difficult for man in his 30's to pretend to be in his 70's, as in, a lot more battle-scarred, older and craggier.

Quote from: Pete Wells on 09 April, 2012, 08:26:37 AM
We've seen body transplants and the like before, it's no big deal. This wouldn't make Dredd invulnerable, he'll still be in constant danger from snipers, terrorists and the like but it'd solve the ageing problem and, potentially, throw up new challenges for him.

I can see it now - Dredd on the operating table with the donor body next to him.  Suddenly, Judge Death appears, inhabits the cadavear and escapes.  "Get me a body!" growls Dredd with his dying breath.  "I've got to stop that creep."

Unfortunately the only other readily-available corpse is a midget.  Now Dredd is the toughest and shortest cop on the beat.  He can't even reach the pedals on his Lawmaster.

Stay tuned - more new challenges for Joe next week!

Way I figure it, Rico'd be aware that the name Dredd should go on (as a symbol to the cits, heard it all before, yadda yadda yadda) and so would take it up as a mark of respect to his mentor/clone brother/father/whatever.

Plus, he'd be a bit burned up too, so he'd get away with it at the scene. Sure, the truth would come out under closer inspection, but then maybe to a select few? "For the good of the city", etc.

Actually, shit, that's pretty much just Necropolis, innit?

There are lots of different ways that this problem could be addressed, and I'm sure that whatever John Wagner decides to do will turn out to be just right, so I'm not worried about what it is, so long as Wagner does it and no-one else.

But the notion that Dredd has another 20 years in him before we have to worry about it is just ridiculous, he'd be bloody 90 years old and running around after perps in their teens and 20s. I don't care what medical advances there have been in the 22nd century, it would just be silly. Even a science fiction story needs to have some grounding in reality on some level. He's now been on the streets for 55 years, anything more than 60 is not going to seem credible without it at least being acknowledged and dealt with somehow. So I think Wagner needs to grab the bull by the horns in the next 5 years at most.

Quote from: Richard on 29 April, 2012, 12:10:16 AM
he'd be bloody 90 years old and running around after perps in their teens and 20s. I don't care what medical advances there have been in the 22nd century, it would just be silly. Even a science fiction story needs to have some grounding in reality on some level.

so's a bunch of supernaturally dead Judges from another dimension.

True, but any 90-year-old who can't be killed and who can also reach into your chest and squeeze your heart until it stops beating, or set you on fire, or make your flesh decompose just by touching you, or scare you to death by looking at you, has an unfair advantage.

I think this issue will be resolved sooner than most think.

Firstly, Dredd is what, 70 or 75 ,depending on if you take into account his 'advanced clone birth', he can't credibly carry on for more than just a few more years as a street judge without seriously weakening the character.

Secondly and more importantly John Wagner will want to be the one who provides that answer.As much as I would like him to continue forever, he will want to hang up his Lawgiver someday and will naturally want to 'round off' Dredd character himself.He has already largely done this with 'Origins ' and no doubt has in mind an ending.I really don't think he would opt for a sci-fi solution, that would devalue earlier stories, the character and simply wouldn't work. Dredd has developed subtly over many years and his actual age is a huge part of that - changing that with some ultimate 're-juve' would weaken Dredd hugely.No - I'm afraid he has to die.

I've always automatically asssumed that replacement would be a clone.Rico seems a good choice (even though he's already almost died twice), too late for Dolman , but there was mention of SEVEN other clones so one of them may emerge.Not an option now of course, but Viennas baby to sov bad guy Pasha, may re-emerge at some distant point (a replacement for the replacement  :D).

It all hangs on of course HOW it's done.I personally think a NEW Dredd could be done and work very well.The old Dredd could be revisited via flashbacks to older cases etc until the new Dredd is bedded in and was accepted.I don't believe John Wagner will leave this huge question to anyone else so the answer will come in the next 4/5 years max methinks.

I cant help thinking if Dredd goes, then everything will follow it. Judge Dredd is Joe Dredd, its not some stand-in clone, replacement, or other. That would be taking it into "Taggart" territory.
And look whats happened in the past - the precedents arent looking good. The re-vamped Dan Dare in 2000ad, and then in the re-launched Eagle (wasnt he the "great-great-great-grandson of the original"?). People rightly saw these reincarnations as a sham, and lost interest. Same, to a degree, with the Rogue trooper/Friday debarcle.
I dont want to come across as negative, but its just the worry that itll end up being a total and utter mess, and bring everything crashing down with it.
Despite the fact that the whole ageing thing has produced some great stories, and given Dredd more depth than the usual comic character, over the years - have not the writers boxed themselves into a corner to a degree?
Of course im not privvy to Wagner's plans, or if indeed Rebellion would even consent to something so radical, so who knows. But like i say replacing Dredd in whatever way, just seems such a risk.

I think that the real reason people didn't like the new Dan Dare was not necessarily because he was the great-whatever-grandson of the original, but just because the stories were not as good or not written in the same style that people recognised from the original. I am sure that nobody would have minded that it was not the "original" Dan Dare if it had been up to scratch. 2000 AD's Dan Dare actually was the original, but the stories were entirely different from the Eagle's take on the character, so they were not as popular. My point is that if Dredd is replaced by another Dredd, nobody will mind too much that it is not the original Joe Dredd (after a transitional period perhaps) as long as the stories are as good and the new Dredd's personality is recognisably the same -- it will still feel like the same character. After all it is not as if the new Dredd would always be mentioning his roots in every single story.

Rico II has been around for 12 years now, he first appeared in 2000. By the time this happens (if it does) he will have been on the streets for nearly as long as Joe Dredd had in 1977 / 2099.

I agree to a point - the reason why people (and the writers) lose interest is for a number of factors, but the prime reason is that once all the excitement has died down, your left with something that is pretending to be something else. Then all the fudging, re-conning, early years stories, flash-backs, re-inventions etc kick in. Just becomes such a mess.
Ive nowt against Dredd being killed off (well, i have but i can see the validity of it), but Rico taking over doesnt thrill me at all.  The Dredd name has become just a franchise, then? and your still potentially left with all the problems ive mentioned.
As i say - its the worry that itll become such a mess.
Can anyone give an example of something similar working in the past?

Quote from: Judge Jack on 29 April, 2012, 01:57:05 PMThe Dredd name has become just a franchise, then?

In fairness to Rico II, his name was Dredd long before it was Rico.  But I do tend to agree with your concerns (that said, the Mills/Wagner Dan(-iel) Dare was great, and an interesting character in his own right - he just fell foul of the general disintegration of the '80s Eagle).   

I'm not convinced that it has to inevitably lead to "all the fudging, ret-conning, early years stories, flash-backs, re-inventions etc." They could do it and just move on. No need to keep harking back to it.

Like pulling off a plaster.

Yes, i too bought the re-launched Eagle for a while. I can well remember the flash and the bang heralding the return of "Dan Dare". And to be fair, it originally wasnt too bad - some nice art, if memory seves, but retconning/different writers/new directions soon came into play.

Quote from: Richard on 29 April, 2012, 02:32:09 PM
I'm not convinced that it has to inevitably lead to "all the fudging, ret-conning, early years stories, flash-backs, re-inventions etc." They could do it and just move on. No need to keep harking back to it.

Like pulling off a plaster.

Agreed, it doesnt have to lead to all that, its just that, unfortunately, it generally does. Would Dredd be immune to all of this? And in comics - noboby stays dead.

Do you think Wagner has to give Tharg assurances MC1 is still standing after the DoC? Right now the city being abandoned and Dredd going down with the ship would be the right time to answer the Dredd / Age conundrum.

Otherwise its going to be some sort of Sam Slade affair OR they simply don't mention it and abandon the 'real-time' ageing angle. Lets face it if you are new to Dredd with the movie or IDW or a lapsed reader from the 'golden' age then you don't really care too much about the ageing.

Maybe, but I think the ageing in real time thing, a year in real life is a year in the comic, is indispensable. It is a hallmark of Judge Dredd that makes it stand out from pretty much all other comics. As a long term fan I would feel pretty let down if the next ten years of stories were all set in 2134.

Quote from: Richard on 29 April, 2012, 01:22:18 PM
nobody will mind too much that it is not the original Joe Dredd  ... After all it is not as if the new Dredd would always be mentioning his roots in every single story.

Rico II has been around for 12 years now, he first appeared in 2000. By the time this happens (if it does) he will have been on the streets for nearly as long as Joe Dredd had in 1977 / 2099.

When-in the late Eighties- Tharg held a competition asking for suggestions for what the comic should be called in the 21st century, one sharp cookie mocked up a cover with the subtitle 'featuring Judge Rico'. If that does turn out to be the way Wagner and Matt Smith flop, I'm sure the earthlet in question will get back in touch.

Quote from: BPP on 29 April, 2012, 02:45:04 PM
Right now the city being abandoned and Dredd going down with the ship would be the right time to answer the Dredd / Age conundrum.

Mega City isn't being abandoned. It's being Balkanised.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkanization

Quote from: Judge Jack on 29 April, 2012, 02:45:04 PM
Yes, i too bought the re-launched Eagle for a while. I can well remember the flash and the bang heralding the return of "Dan Dare". And to be fair, it originally wasnt too bad - some nice art, if memory seves, but retconning/different writers/new directions soon came into play.

Quote from: Richard on 29 April, 2012, 02:32:09 PM
I'm not convinced that it has to inevitably lead to "all the fudging, ret-conning, early years stories, flash-backs, re-inventions etc." They could do it and just move on. No need to keep harking back to it.

Like pulling off a plaster.

Agreed, it doesnt have to lead to all that, its just that, unfortunately, it generally does. Would Dredd be immune to all of this? And in comics - noboby stays dead.

Even if Dredd is allowed to leave the stage alive (i), I don't think Taggart's such a ridiculous comparison (ii); but only in the sense that the producers didn't directly replace the titular lead- opting instead to portion out the narrative burden among an already well established cast of younger characters. Beeny, Giant, Rico et al are up to that particular task.

Placing an impossible weight of expectation on a single Dredd replacement character only has one (dramatically interesting) way to go, and Kraken's taken us down that road before. I was rooting for that kid- who hasn't, as a son or lover (iii), felt the frustration of trying to compete with the memory of your predecessor- but 'and everything worked out just fine' has never seemed like an option for any Fargo clone.

A ludicrous aside. Assuming Wagner's personal pension provisions are based around the state retirement age, there's time for him to take the cloning and family aspects that have emerged as a major theme of his late work to their (il)logical extreme and write a response to all those objections to Dolly the sheep; what if someone (usually Hitler) got hold of the technology and decided to create an army of himself (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhk-J9YwLR8) (iv)? That could leave not just Rico, but a host of Fargo clones on the streets of MC1; Dredds, anyone?



(i) My preferred option. However long Dredd lies dead, some hack's going to disinter his corpse; as long as Wagner's alive someone's going to be asking him when he's writing another Dredd. Having Dredd head off somewhere else lets Wagner's replacements (and Dredd's) get on with their jobs unimpeded, and allows Wagner to write the odd story about his own character whenever a particularly large vet's bill lands on the doormat.

(ii) "there's been a mutie incur-r-r-r-sion". Bringing the name of the strip into line with the singular title of the new film would help emphasise that the focus was (as ever) more on the life and fate of the city than any one particular character. Dredd seems more of a tone title, free of any specific referrant.

(iii) DH Lawrence; get me!

(iv) Hinted at already with Sinfield/March

Quote from: Richard on 29 April, 2012, 02:48:37 PMAs a long term fan I would feel pretty let down if the next ten years of stories were all set in 2134.

There's an interesting precedent for this in Patrick O'Brian's 20-or-so Aubrey/Maturin novels, which I love almost as much as I love Dredd. 

Leaving aside the fact that his own personal history was a complete fabrication, O'Brian's novels of the Royal Navy at the end of the Napoleonic Wars drew much of their charm and acclaim from their rigid historical accuracy, with time and events marching on regardless of his characters, who would frequently find themselves just missing famous engagements because they were on months-long cruises elsewhere, or spending whole books becalmed by periodic outbreaks of hateful peace. 

However, after a half dozen novels O'Brian found himself in a hole: having started his tale in 1800 and never expecting to do more than one book, he realised he was going to run out of any meaningful naval warfare sharpish around 1814, long before his readers' appetites waned. 

His solution was to stop the clock and begin the 'long year of 1813', sending his characters rambling around the world for years (including successive seasons, Christmasses and childbirths) without ever actually getting to 1814.  Eventually, near the end of his own life, the characters rejoined 'real' time again with Napoleon's escape from Elba.

Did it work?  Did fundamentally altering the precepts of a fiction which derived so much of its character from its realism matter?  Well, for my money, yes and no.  I was delighted to get another dozen books of amputations, broadsides and amusing the enemy, but there's no denying that they lost an urgency or perhaps more importantly a sense of consequence. 

It became hard to sympathise with Jack Aubrey's frustration at the endless delay in his being made an Admiral when he'd been dismissed from the service and served as master of a privateer earlier that same year, or when the characters' various children become active participants, despite the chronology suggesting they're all still about 2. 

So it's a double-edged sword. You fudge the timelines and it all goes a bit Franklin Richards, but on the plus side, you get a lot more of the what you like.     

Quote from: bikini kill on 29 April, 2012, 03:19:33 PM

A ludicrous aside. Assuming Wagner's personal pension provisions are based around the state retirement age, there's time for him to take the cloning and family aspects that have emerged as a major theme of his late work to their (il)logical extreme and write a response to all those objections to Dolly the sheep; what if someone (usually Hitler) got hold of the technology and decided to create an army of himself (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhk-J9YwLR8) (iv)? That could leave not just Rico, but a host of Fargo clones on the streets of MC1; Dredds, anyone?

He all ready did that with the Judda and a little bit with Sinfield.

Mutant Judges are the next phase: Enter...Mutant Judge Fargo of the Cursed Earth Clan.

Quote from: Dash Decent on 11 April, 2012, 04:05:19 PM

Quote from: Pete Wells on 09 April, 2012, 08:26:37 AM
We've seen body transplants and the like before, it's no big deal. This wouldn't make Dredd invulnerable, he'll still be in constant danger from snipers, terrorists and the like but it'd solve the ageing problem and, potentially, throw up new challenges for him.

I can see it now - Dredd on the operating table with the donor body next to him.  Suddenly, Judge Death appears, inhabits the cadavear and escapes.  "Get me a body!" growls Dredd with his dying breath.  "I've got to stop that creep."

Unfortunately the only other readily-available corpse is a midget.  Now Dredd is the toughest and shortest cop on the beat.  He can't even reach the pedals on his Lawmaster.

Stay tuned - more new challenges for Joe next week!

"He can still kick ass, just not literally any more"

Nobody kills the goose that laid the golden egg. This Tharg is clearly very accepting / indulgent / informed on letting the creators of characters do as they wish but there is no assurance the next one will be. However even Tharg might get a word in his ear should he sanction the death of the key IP of the company. Rebellion bought 2000AD for its IP, its not going to green-light the death of Joe in the hope that Rico et al can carry the comic.

Even if its applauded as brave etc for doing so any short-term PR would be outweighed by the fact that the hard-ass Joe Dredd is no longer there and that the strip, regardless of theories about it being 'about the city, about the citizens etc' has been about Joe Dredd for 30 years.

And if the movie is a success, a big success, then Dredd, you know the titular character as played by a name actor strolling around the screen with 'DREDD' written on his chest, is worth a lot more money than worrying what the old fanboys think.

Lets say that it is a success, and IDW's comic is a moderate success based on the name-recognition spreading, is the weekly Prog really going to be the one place where the movie's main character isn't around?

Dredd already travels in time, fights dimensional beings and exists in a galaxy far weirder than MC1, some age-reducing fudge based on tech / weird world or silence are the only two options.

Quote from: BPP on 29 April, 2012, 03:45:10 PM
However even Tharg might get a word in his ear should he sanction the death of the key IP of the company. Rebellion bought 2000AD for its IP, its not going to green-light the death of Joe in the hope that Rico et al can carry the comic.

You're almost certainly correct there BPP, but the question remains: what would be the best case resolution to the ageing/death problem from a story point of view, leaving aside 'real world' concerns. 

I'd personally love to see the Taggart solution, an ensemble piece with no-one in the titular role.  I can't imagine ever accepting Rico or Dolman or Clone 37 as an actual replacement (although I was prepared to give Kraken a chance) - the whole thrust of Dredd on this issue since as far back as Return of Rico has been that clones are different people.

However, I'm prepared to accept the near-inevitability of (another) re-juve, possibly mandatory across the whole of Justice Dept in response to lack of numbers 

Quote from: JOE SOAP on 29 April, 2012, 03:00:43 PM
Mega City isn't being abandoned. It's being Balkanised.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkanization

That means the NW Hab Zone's never going to vote for Sector 260 in the Megavision song contest.

Well if the do insist on the Dark Judges doing a cover of The Crazy world of Arthur Brown's  'FIRE!!' every year then what can they expect. 

Even if he eventually transitions off the street into more of the sort of role he had in The Pit, it's not at all implausible in Mega-City terms for Dredd the character to live another fifty years or longer in a relatively healthy and compos mentis state.  The strip's been happily humming along for over a decade now doing ensemble cast stories with Dredd as the focal point, and there's no particular reason why he has to be out doing the more physical parts of the job personally for that setup to continue.  I think there's more character mileage in Dredd having to come to terms with a behind-the-scenes role than there is in a death story anyway.

A bit late with this, but . . .

Quote from: Judge Jack on 29 April, 2012, 01:06:43 PMAnd look whats happened in the past - the precedents arent looking good. The re-vamped Dan Dare in 2000ad, and then in the re-launched Eagle (wasnt he the "great-great-great-grandson of the original"?). People rightly saw these reincarnations as a sham, and lost interest. Same, to a degree, with the Rogue trooper/Friday debarcle.

The DAN DARE comparisons aren't really valid. The current readership is a lot older than wot 2000 AD was pitched at in the '70s. Dan was included mainly to garner some publicity and because, IIRC, Kelvin Gosnell was a fan. Save maybe for a few old Eagle Annuals stored in the loft, an eight year-old Squaxx in 1977 wouldn't have anything to compare a new DAN DARE to and so would be unaware of any "sham". Of those three revamps attempted by Tharg, only the prelude to the third version is any good with an amnesiac Dan helping a dying Mekon.

Again, it was a younger readership the relaunched EAGLE was aimed at but I would argue that Dan's great-great grandson was a success. Once Wagner departs as co-writer, the strip under Pat Mills soon becomes much closer in tone and style to the Frank Hampson version and it's basically this version that remains for the next four years until his bastardization as a Captain Scarlet clone.

QuoteThe strip's been happily humming along for over a decade now doing ensemble cast stories with Dredd as the focal point, and there's no particular reason why he has to be out doing the more physical parts of the job personally for that setup to continue.  I think there's more character mileage in Dredd having to come to terms with a behind-the-scenes role than there is in a death story anyway.

Don't really see this as an option either, a semi-retired Dredd is a very unappealing prospect from a character promotion angle. At the end of the day Dredd always comes down to Joe cracking' heads at street-level, taking focus away from that won't work as a permanent feature. They're doing this to a certain measure at the moment but the lines are clearly drawn. If Dredd was a finite prospect it'd be interesting for a very short-term but not for the long forseeable. With Wagner Dredd is an authored piece and if Dredd was finite he'd be the one to define the end but once he leaves it becomes something else.

If there's a real push to see a decommissioning of Dredd, it'll be done as an alt-end ala "whatever happened to the lawman of tomorrow?" or a clear cut finish- which doesn't necessarily need to end in his death. I don't see a likelihood of these things happening either way.

Quote from: JOE SOAP on 29 April, 2012, 03:38:22 PM
what if someone (usually Hitler) got hold of the technology and decided to create an army of himself (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhk-J9YwLR8) (iv)? That could leave not just Rico, but a host of Fargo clones on the streets of MC1; Dredds, anyone?

He all ready did that with the Judda and a little bit with Sinfield.

The principle's there in the stories and characters we've both cited, but March doesn't amount to an army and The Judda never got their act together enough to land more than three sets of boots on the slab of MC1. I've got a hankering for 24 weeks of Dan Tanna-style close quarter, running combat between large numbers of well resourced, highly trained troops (i).

To get back on topic, and accept Tordelback's exclusive focus on events on the page; I don't particularly want to see Dredd die anymore than Rebellion do, although if Wagner wrote the kind of Dredd dies to save his city scene that some would like to see, that'd have an undoubted mythic power (ii).

BPP's entirely correct that nothing is off limits as far as stookie treatment, Bennet Beeny-style Cranial Screw-top Brain Entry (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNQlFe9gCfE), or bug-eyed alien necromancers is concerned. I don't think any of those would provide particularly satisfying narrative solutions though.

Having Dredd alive, but somewhere off page, while the supporting cast carry on the story still seems like the best solution to me.



(i) Sections of The Apocalypse War aside, Dredd's invasion stories tend to involve a small group of motivated individuals (Judda, Apocalypse Squad, Dark Judges) taking on a larger group (Judges, Sovs, Zombies). Doomsday played with that formula, but not entirely successfully.

(ii) Alan Moore's introduction to The Dark Knight Returns mentions the importance of a good death scene in mythology.

Quote from: bikini kill on 29 April, 2012, 04:50:12 PM

He all ready did that with the Judda and a little bit with Sinfield.

The principle's there in the stories and characters we've both cited, but March doesn't amount to an army and The Judda never got their act together enough to land more than three sets of boots on the slab of MC1. I've got a hankering for 24 weeks of Dan Tanna-style close quarter, running combat between large numbers of well resourced, highly trained troops.
[/quote]


That sounds like the original draft of William Wisher's script for the '95 film.

Quote from: bikini kill on 29 April, 2012, 04:50:12 PM

Having Dredd alive, but somewhere off page, while the supporting cast carry on the story still seems like the best solution to me.

Don't think it would work long-term, it's not something Rebellion would want either, I'd say.

Another option would be to create a separate storyline in an undisclosed future time, when Dredd is a lot older - with no need to know how old or what age-treatments he's had, if any- and have him end his years there. Any preceeding storylines can choose to ignore it, incoporate, or build to it once Wagner chooses to retire. It would solve the dilemma of needing Wagner write Dredd's-End before he retires but also bypasses disruption to the current Mega-City present.


It could be done in a mythic and distilled Dreddian way without being hampered by too many specifics. If succeeding writers decided to divert it with separate time-lines/divergences that's for future editorial to decide but doesn't need to be answered for a long time.

Quote from: JOE SOAP on 29 April, 2012, 05:13:26 PM
Another option would be to create a separate storyline in an undisclosed future time, when Dredd is a lot older - with no need to know how old or what age-treatments he's had, if any- and have him end his years there. Any preceeding storylines can choose to ignore it, incoporate, or build to it once Wagner chooses to retire. It would solve the dilemma of needing Wagner write Dredd's-End before he retires but also bypasses disruption to the current Mega-City present.

Great idea. John Wagner should write that story now, Carlos should draw it now, then they should put it in a locked drawer until there are no more continuing Dredd stories being published.

As Strontium Dog has proved (or did prove, then decided it had changed its mind) it's perfectly possible to read and enjoy stories involving characters whose means of death are known to the reader. It does affect your reading of both the death scene and the continuing stories though. Alan Grant and Colin MacNeil created a beautiful, pefectly realised death for Alpha, and the negation of that story's only just tempered by my delight at seeing Carlos back drawing those characters.

Seeing other writers create new adventures for Dredd once Wagner had definitively killed him would inspire oddly conflicted emotions in me.

Quote from: bikini kill on 29 April, 2012, 03:19:33 PM
what if someone (usually Hitler) got hold of the technology and decided to create an army of himself

An army lacking in bollocks? p'eh!

Quote from: TordelBack on 29 April, 2012, 03:51:21 PM
but the question remains: what would be the best case resolution to the ageing/death problem from a story point of view, leaving aside 'real world' concerns. 

Is the whole Re-Juve/body swapping/tech thing so bad?
Its a cop out to a degree, but we'll still have Joe, and it can still play out in real time. If Dredd isnt killed /sent off, its the least messy option by a mile.

Quote from: Eric Plumrose on 29 April, 2012, 04:17:14 PM
A bit late with this, but . . .

Quote from: Judge Jack on 29 April, 2012, 01:06:43 PMAnd look whats happened in the past - the precedents arent looking good. The re-vamped Dan Dare in 2000ad, and then in the re-launched Eagle (wasnt he the "great-great-great-grandson of the original"?). People rightly saw these reincarnations as a sham, and lost interest. Same, to a degree, with the Rogue trooper/Friday debarcle.

The DAN DARE comparisons aren't really valid.

Well, perhaps i wasnt being clear in my original post - but the point i was making was, is that when attempting something like this, it usually ends up a mess. If the options facing Dredd is to either kill him off and/or replace him with somebody new then the reasoning behind the Dan Dare comparison, and the whole re-invention schtick is that they mucked it up, and to be fair, Dare isnt the only example -  my concern was, would Dredd suffer the same fate?

Quote from: Eric Plumrose on 29 April, 2012, 04:17:14 PM
The current readership is a lot older than wot 2000 AD was pitched at in the '70s. Dan was included mainly to garner some publicity and because, IIRC, Kelvin Gosnell was a fan. Save maybe for a few old Eagle Annuals stored in the loft, an eight year-old Squaxx in 1977 wouldn't have anything to compare a new DAN DARE to and so would be unaware of any "sham". Of those three revamps attempted by Tharg, only the prelude to the third version is any good with an amnesiac Dan helping a dying Mekon.

Again, it was a younger readership the relaunched EAGLE was aimed at but I would argue that Dan's great-great grandson was a success. Once Wagner departs as co-writer, the strip under Pat Mills soon becomes much closer in tone and style to the Frank Hampson version and it's basically this version that remains for the next four years until his bastardization as a Captain Scarlet clone.

Both 2000ad and the new Eagle, at their launches, made capital out of the fact that they would feature Dan Dare, so at some level they was aiming at an group of potential readers that did remember Dan Dare. I, as a 9 year old was quite aware of Dan Dare, and had grown up, albeit 2nd hand, reading the old comics,annuals etc. And im sure older people than me read 2000ad.

Quote from: JOE SOAP on 29 April, 2012, 05:00:21 PM

Quote from: bikini kill on 29 April, 2012, 04:50:12 PM

He all ready did that with the Judda and a little bit with Sinfield.

The principle's there in the stories and characters we've both cited, but March doesn't amount to an army and The Judda never got their act together enough to land more than three sets of boots on the slab of MC1. I've got a hankering for 24 weeks of Dan Tanna-style close quarter, running combat between large numbers of well resourced, highly trained troops.

That sounds like the original draft of William Wisher's script for the '95 film.

I'll get my coat.

Quote from: bikini kill on 29 April, 2012, 05:32:03 PM

Quote from: JOE SOAP on 29 April, 2012, 05:13:26 PM
Another option would be to create a separate storyline in an undisclosed future time, when Dredd is a lot older - with no need to know how old or what age-treatments he's had, if any- and have him end his years there. Any preceeding storylines can choose to ignore it, incoporate, or build to it once Wagner chooses to retire. It would solve the dilemma of needing Wagner write Dredd's-End before he retires but also bypasses disruption to the current Mega-City present.

Great idea. John Wagner should write that story now, Carlos should draw it now, then they should put it in a locked drawer until there are no more continuing Dredd stories being published.

It could be published anytime since it would be out of strict linear continuity.

Quote from: Judge Jack on 29 April, 2012, 05:33:41 PM

Is the whole Re-Juve/body swapping/tech thing so bad?
Its a cop out to a degree, but we'll still have Joe, and it can still play out in real time. If Dredd isnt killed /sent off, its the least messy option by a mile.

It's a bit obvious and Wagner has always done the opposite to that, giving us what we least expect. There's also a bit of a fan's sense of let the original author finish off his creation rather than someone else which - due to the unique real-time aspect to Dredd- I think is the real impulse to find the solution to the problem.

Quote from: JOE SOAP on 29 April, 2012, 05:47:13 PM


It's a bit obvious and Wagner has always done the opposite to that, giving us what we least expect. There's also a bit of a fan's sense of let the original author finish off his creation rather than someone else which - due to the unique real-time aspect to Dredd- I think is the real impulse to find the solution to the problem.

GREETINGS EARTHLETS. WELCOME TO THIS SPECIAL ISSUE OF 2000AD WHERE THE WAGNER DROID GETS TO DO WHAT HE WANTS TO END DREDD.

MEANWHILE JOE WILL BE BACK NEXT WEEK IN THE GRENNIE 'THERES SOMETHING IN THE PARK (III)' AND WE'LL KEEP THE COMIC GOING AS WE HAVE THE PAST 30 YEARS.

Quote from: JOE SOAP on 29 April, 2012, 05:47:13 PM
There's also a bit of a fan's sense of let the original author finish off his creation rather than someone else

(http://www.rossiter-inc.com/images/hit-the-nail-on-the-head.jpg)

Quote from: BPP on 29 April, 2012, 06:08:11 PM

Quote from: JOE SOAP on 29 April, 2012, 05:47:13 PM


It's a bit obvious and Wagner has always done the opposite to that, giving us what we least expect. There's also a bit of a fan's sense of let the original author finish off his creation rather than someone else which - due to the unique real-time aspect to Dredd- I think is the real impulse to find the solution to the problem.

GREETINGS EARTHLETS. WELCOME TO THIS SPECIAL ISSUE OF 2000AD WHERE THE WAGNER DROID GETS TO DO WHAT HE WANTS TO END DREDD.

MEANWHILE JOE WILL BE BACK NEXT WEEK IN THE GRENNIE 'THERES SOMETHING IN THE PARK (III)' AND WE'LL KEEP THE COMIC GOING AS WE HAVE THE PAST 30 YEARS.

If you read my posts you'll see I've all ready made that point as it has been made hundreds of time on this forum by us all so it's nothing we don't realise. We're in the realm of supposition here. Caps are so uncouth. There are others ways to solve this problem as I suggested without destroying the current strip or being obvious.

Quote from: bikini kill on 29 April, 2012, 06:11:02 PM

Quote from: JOE SOAP on 29 April, 2012, 05:47:13 PM
There's also a bit of a fan's sense of let the original author finish off his creation rather than someone else

(http://www.rossiter-inc.com/images/hit-the-nail-on-the-head.jpg)

Whats Pink Floyd got to do with any of this?

Quote from: JOE SOAP on 29 April, 2012, 06:13:25 PM

Quote from: BPP on 29 April, 2012, 06:08:11 PM

Quote from: JOE SOAP on 29 April, 2012, 05:47:13 PM


It's a bit obvious and Wagner has always done the opposite to that, giving us what we least expect. There's also a bit of a fan's sense of let the original author finish off his creation rather than someone else which - due to the unique real-time aspect to Dredd- I think is the real impulse to find the solution to the problem.

GREETINGS EARTHLETS. WELCOME TO THIS SPECIAL ISSUE OF 2000AD WHERE THE WAGNER DROID GETS TO DO WHAT HE WANTS TO END DREDD.

MEANWHILE JOE WILL BE BACK NEXT WEEK IN THE GRENNIE 'THERES SOMETHING IN THE PARK (III)' AND WE'LL KEEP THE COMIC GOING AS WE HAVE THE PAST 30 YEARS.

If you read my posts you'll see I've all ready made that point as it has been made hundreds of time on this forum by us all so it's nothing we don't realise. We're in the realm of supposition here. Caps are so uncouth. There are others ways to solve this problem as I suggested without destroying the current strip or being obvious.

Get a sense of humour eh? Caps were 'the voice of Tharg' from en high. No need for your tone to me.

You'll never be Tharg with that attitude.

Quote from: Judge Jack on 29 April, 2012, 05:33:41 PMBoth 2000ad and the new Eagle, at their launches, made capital out of the fact that they would feature Dan Dare, so at some level they was aiming at an group of potential readers that did remember Dan Dare. I, as a 9 year old was quite aware of Dan Dare, and had grown up, albeit 2nd hand, reading the old comics,annuals etc. And im sure older people than me read 2000ad.

How typical, though, do you think your experience was? Yes, older people than your nine year-old self were reading 2000 AD but it wasn't them the comic was aimed at. Dan's inclusion in both line-ups was a gimmick to help boost sales, one that was hoped would entice newsagents to stock both comics and have dads buying it for their sprogs. Relaunching the EAGLE was itself a gimmick, one that lasted a year before it was downgraded to bog paper.

Bog-paper's a step up n my opinion.

If it's your hand you're more used to using, then yes.

Quote from: Eric Plumrose on 29 April, 2012, 07:25:08 PM

Quote from: Judge Jack on 29 April, 2012, 05:33:41 PMBoth 2000ad and the new Eagle, at their launches, made capital out of the fact that they would feature Dan Dare, so at some level they was aiming at an group of potential readers that did remember Dan Dare. I, as a 9 year old was quite aware of Dan Dare, and had grown up, albeit 2nd hand, reading the old comics,annuals etc. And im sure older people than me read 2000ad.

How typical, though, do you think your experience was? Yes, older people than your nine year-old self were reading 2000 AD but it wasn't them the comic was aimed at. Dan's inclusion in both line-ups was a gimmick to help boost sales, one that was hoped would entice newsagents to stock both comics and have dads buying it for their sprogs. Relaunching the EAGLE was itself a gimmick, one that lasted a year before it was downgraded to bog paper.

I doubt it was typical, but i wouldnt say it was unheard of, by any means.

Dan Dare, at that time, was arguably the most famous British comic character, and over the years, much of who, and what he was, would have seeped into the public's consciousness. And 2000ad and the re-launched Eagle, both aimed towards this recognition. Certainly he wasnt an unknown quantity, or some long forgotten minor character. and Dare annuals were still being produced through-out all the 70's, even though the Eagle had long since folded.

Just what age was 2000ad aimed at? Good question. 6? 8? 10? 12? or somewhere inbetween?
I take your point though, about 2000ad not being aimed at "older" people, but that wouldnt stop those people buying comics,as i certainly remember people who you would class as being of grandparents age, buying the numerous war titles around this period. Some adults as well.

I really do think his time is up. He's old and tired & since Day of Chaos hasn't recovered what dry wit he once had. TMO has just mentioned that Ezquerra will be back on Dredd in the summer ; i can't see anyone but Wagner scriping this. Do you remember when they killed Johnny Alpha. The biggest gripe wasn't that it happened; it was because the original creative team didn't get to do it. No big finale from Carlos!            With this latest news about an Ezquerra Dredd in the coming months , i think this is it for old Dreddy. They have the right to end it this way. In a sense, i'm quite excited about it.

Yes. No. I don't know.

Have Dredd on one of his more 'out there' sci-fi adventures where he encounters something or someone with rejuvenatory powers. Sure, it's a McGuffin cop-out, but it means we get a younger Dredd again, who is in his own body and with the memories and experiences intact.
The guys died already a number of times, and he's encountered everything from giant spiders to werewolves, so the fantastical isn't beyond the scope of the strip itself.
Just make it a good story. :D

I think Dredd's demise and age are a bit like the renaming (or not) of "2000 AD" post the millennium. It's just not something Rebellion, Tharg or the writers feel needs to be directly addressed.

It's also not something that's likely to happen unless the management and owners of 2000 AD lose their minds. You don't kill off your most popular IP — and in 2000 AD's case, probably the only very widely known character across the world. (I know Sláine goes down well in Europe, too, but Dredd clearly has a lot more clout.)

Dredd also acts as an anchor. In most anthologies, having that one staple is extremely useful, not least from a quality control standpoint. It makes experimentation easier if there's something familiar lurking elsewhere in the magazine.

Quote from: IndigoPrime on 10 May, 2016, 01:19:54 PM

Dredd also acts as an anchor. In most anthologies, having that one staple is extremely useful, not least from a quality control standpoint. It makes experimentation easier if there's something familiar lurking elsewhere in the magazine.

Precisely.  I remember one creator (can't for the life of me remember who; Garth Ennis maybe?) saying something like 'If the Dredd's good, the prog's good.'

Grant Morrison during hs brief Dredd tenure described Dredd as being 'like the sofa' - always there, and pretty much essential.  (Pity he seemed to like his sofas like I like my analogies  - garish, shallow, over-the-top, and increasingly inappropriate).

Something I've wondered before - before this kind-of-death, was it official policy to have Dredd, or a clone thereof, appear personally in every prog (bar the Sin/Dex and Sláine prog-length stories)?  Apart from one Wilderlands segment in the Megazine, I can't remember a single Dredd episode without at least one appearance of the man himself, or at least someone with identical genes.

Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 10 May, 2016, 10:41:03 PM
Something I've wondered before - before this kind-of-death, was it official policy to have Dredd, or a clone thereof, appear personally in every prog (bar the Sin/Dex and Sláine prog-length stories)?  Apart from one Wilderlands segment in the Megazine, I can't remember a single Dredd episode without at least one appearance of the man himself, or at least someone with identical genes.

Can't recall them off-hand, but there have been more Dredd-free episodes than you might think - particularly in more recent years, with Wagner's long-form, large cast thrillers.

Not that I'm suggesting this is somehting I'd like to see, but given Dredd does age "real time", it isnt something that can be put off indefiinitely without removing that aspect of the strip, which in some ways would be just as potentially dangerous as killing him off.

But we now have a City on it's knees - are they going to allow any Judge to just grow old gracefully, particulalrly when the Cadets took such a hammering in DoC?  Rather than just Dredd being re-juced, what if the Council decided all Judges had to be?  And what would be the implications psychologically and politically - maybe the Cits would start demanding the same Rejuve rights and maybe tehy might ahve to roll out some kind of limited programme to assuage the unrest - some kind of life lottery? - could be another cause for Dredd clashage with the CJ!

Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 10 May, 2016, 10:41:03 PM

Quote from: IndigoPrime on 10 May, 2016, 01:19:54 PM

Dredd also acts as an anchor. In most anthologies, having that one staple is extremely useful, not least from a quality control standpoint. It makes experimentation easier if there's something familiar lurking elsewhere in the magazine.

Something I've wondered before - before this kind-of-death, was it official policy to have Dredd, or a clone thereof, appear personally in every prog (bar the Sin/Dex and Sláine prog-length stories)?  Apart from one Wilderlands segment in the Megazine, I can't remember a single Dredd episode without at least one appearance of the man himself, or at least someone with identical genes.

There is a bit on one of the Titan intros that talks about this iirc - they comment on how one dredd story (Citizen Snork?) only features Dredd in a final "what has this got to do with Dredd?" panel that may or may not ahve been included just to make sure he appeared?

Snork is the story with a (4 panel) "what has this got to do with Dredd" bit aat teh end - the intro doesnt mention it, so might be recalling it from ain interview from the time - need to sort out that searchable database some day!

(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a113/Darkjimbo2/Snork_zpst8s3shxu.jpg~original)

Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 10 May, 2016, 10:41:03 PM

Quote from: IndigoPrime on 10 May, 2016, 01:19:54 PM
Apart from one Wilderlands segment in the Megazine, I can't remember a single Dredd episode without at least one appearance of the man himself, or at least someone with identical genes.

I haven't read it for a while, but I'm sure there's Chopper-centric episodes of Oz he's not in - like the one with Cookie on the boat?

Quote from: Greg M. on 11 May, 2016, 09:52:41 AM

Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 10 May, 2016, 10:41:03 PM

Quote from: IndigoPrime on 10 May, 2016, 01:19:54 PM
Apart from one Wilderlands segment in the Megazine, I can't remember a single Dredd episode without at least one appearance of the man himself, or at least someone with identical genes.

I haven't read it for a while, but I'm sure there's Chopper-centric episodes of Oz he's not in - like the one with Cookie on the boat?

Definitely. Also, parts of Necropolis and pretty much all of Doomsday for MC-1.

Quote from: The Cosh on 11 May, 2016, 10:06:40 AM
Definitely. Also, parts of Necropolis and pretty much all of Doomsday for MC-1.

Oh yeah, of course - neither he nor Kraken are in the one where Mortis melts Julio.

Quote from: Greg M. on 11 May, 2016, 09:52:41 AM

Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 10 May, 2016, 10:41:03 PM

Quote from: IndigoPrime on 10 May, 2016, 01:19:54 PM
Apart from one Wilderlands segment in the Megazine, I can't remember a single Dredd episode without at least one appearance of the man himself, or at least someone with identical genes.

I haven't read it for a while, but I'm sure there's Chopper-centric episodes of Oz he's not in - like the one with Cookie on the boat?

Yeah, you're spot on. My theory, and memory, have failed me.  Dredd's world does tend to chug along nicely without the man himself, it seems.

Quote from: Leigh S on 10 May, 2016, 10:57:35 PM
Not that I'm suggesting this is somehting I'd like to see, but given Dredd does age "real time", it isnt something that can be put off indefiinitely without removing that aspect of the strip, which in some ways would be just as potentially dangerous as killing him off.

I now think the best solution is to have a scene where Dredd is coming out of a medical and a Med Judge casually says something like " these clones are amazing, we never anticipated this but they age remarkably well. Although Dredd is nearly 80, he has the body of a 50 year old".

Should put the question to bed for a couple of decades at least.

Bit of a cop-out, that.

Quote from: Richard on 13 May, 2016, 08:35:33 PM
Bit of a cop-out, that.

It kind of worked for John Constantine and his demon blood.

If Dredd and Rico are a result of cloning tech why didn't the Justice department churn out a couple more every year? You could argue they might as well have replaced the whole Judge system with Dredd clones which would have led to very linear story telling and few if any female Judges but you can see the grim logic behind my twisted thinking. They had trouble with the Judda etc and you could claim that the original cloning schematics have been destroyed or lost due to the Apocalypse war and various other disasters but it seems quite easy to me to kill off Dredd-and then bring him back.

When I was first reading Dredd back in prog 550 or so, I like the idea that he was just another Judge, not some sort of amazing best Judge ever - I think they've overly destroyed MC1 & perhaps best avoid killing him off by somehow nipping back in time to undo the Chaos rubbish would be a good idea.

Quote from: IAMTHESYSTEM on 14 May, 2016, 09:04:54 AMIf Dredd and Rico are a result of cloning tech why didn't the Justice department churn out a couple more every year?

As has been shown in the Prog, the Dredd strain is fundamentally flawed. I imagine Justice Department was therefore cautious about making too many mini-Dredds, lest they end up with Ricos. These days, I doubt they have the money.

Quote from: IndigoPrime on 14 May, 2016, 10:54:21 AM

Quote from: IAMTHESYSTEM on 14 May, 2016, 09:04:54 AMIf Dredd and Rico are a result of cloning tech why didn't the Justice department churn out a couple more every year?

As has been shown in the Prog, the Dredd strain is fundamentally flawed. I imagine Justice Department was therefore cautious about making too many mini-Dredds

It could be argued that there have been more misses  than hits, in fact. Rico 1, Kraken, Nimrod; Dolman didn't go as planned and even Fargo, the randy old bugger,  wasn't quite the disciplinarian our Joe is.

Quoteperhaps best avoid killing him off by somehow nipping back in time to undo the Chaos rubbish

That wouldn't work because he'd still be the same age in the new timeline.

There were seven clones of Dredd metioned at the start of Blood Cadets, IIRC.

If he is killed off then you don't replace him you have a new person take up the mantle.

Where Dredd is gung ho and done it all the new person probably female will not be so sure and there more available to the story.

I don't think Dredd should necessarily be killed off, per se. Instead, I would like to see his last appearance in the Prog tied in with a story-line in which Mega-City One finally becomes a fully functioning Democracy. This would maybe come about following a Civil War of some sorts, with Dredd having to make a choice between an increasingly tyrannical and oppressive Justice system and a Democratic uprising led by the Citizens. Thanks largely to Dredd - and with a nod to Fargo - the citizens prevail and full Democracy is restored to Mega-City one. Under Dredd's instruction, the Judges cede their authority to the Democrats and become a police force more akin to current times, with all the accountability and scrutiny that entails. (At least in theory!) Having helped bring an end to the former Justice System which he has served for so long - and as a symbolic gesture - Joe Dredd takes the Long Walk into the Cursed Earth for the last time and into the worlds of Myth and Legend.

That's a way to end the strip.

Which is fine if that is what you want.

I personally would prefer the strip to continue with the core ethos of it as intact as possible. That means the Judge's remaining in power and Dredd himself continuing to be prominant.

As things are at the moment, is it still possible, in a weekly Prog, to run a story about either an idiotic fuiture fad or a bizarre future crime in MC1, then have Dredd turn up at the end to make an arrest + say something pithy?

I do think you could kill Dredd and not lose this basic premise, although I can't see a good long-term reason for doing so. Unless you just flat-out ended the series.

Or is it vital to the strip to remind readers every episode that the Justice Dept in MC-1 is fundamentally too small and ill-equipped to deal with routine crime-busting?

I worry that if the overarching narrative goes too far in the direction, we can perhaps never again have a 'normal' Dredd epsiode, as served the Prog so well for 2,000 progs...

Basically, this is your age-old geek debate about continuity vs story engine.

Quote from: AlexF on 16 May, 2016, 12:06:38 PM
As things are at the moment, is it still possible, in a weekly Prog, to run a story about either an idiotic fuiture fad or a bizarre future crime in MC1, then have Dredd turn up at the end to make an arrest + say something pithy?

Or is it vital to the strip to remind readers every episode that the Justice Dept in MC-1 is fundamentally too small and ill-equipped to deal with routine crime-busting?

Certainly possible - I think it's just more the case that the current writers are more interested in developing their respective supporting casts and doing multi-part thrillers than self-contained funny sci-fi episodes.

Quote from: AlexF on 16 May, 2016, 12:06:38 PM
Or is it vital to the strip to remind readers every episode that the Justice Dept in MC-1 is fundamentally too small and ill-equipped to deal with routine crime-busting?

To be fair, after all the bitching about Chaos Day seeming to have little or no aftermath, it's a bit harsh to complain that there's now too much reference to it in ongoing stories...

Cheers

Jim

How well did the Strontium Dog fare without Johnny Alpha?

Like Judge Dredd, the universe Johnny inhabited was interesting. But without the central character it fell apart.

Quote from: Dark Jimbo on 16 May, 2016, 01:16:30 PM

Quote from: AlexF on 16 May, 2016, 12:06:38 PM
is it still possible, in a weekly Prog, to run a story about either an idiotic future fad or a bizarre future crime in MC1, then have Dredd turn up at the end to make an arrest + say something pithy?

Certainly possible - I think it's just more the case that the current writers are more interested in developing their respective supporting casts and doing multi-part thrillers than self-contained funny sci-fi episodes.

The ability to write a six page gag strip isn't a transferable skill in the wider comics marketplace, so there's little incentive to learn how.  Plus, whimsy is difficult to pull off and very divisive - look at the mixed reception afforded to Undercover Klegg.

I'm sure Tharg has a few six-pagers on file, to plug holes in schedules, but I doubt they're of the wacky crime variety. That's fine with me; we had 11 good years of those kinds of stories and another 18 okay years that illustrated the law of diminishing returns.

Most Judge Dredd stories aren't really about Dredd himself. They're mostly about some other character, or about the city, or about some situation. It's quite rare to have a story about the man. So if Dredd ever was killed off, you could still tell all of those stories, and just have a different judge to hang the story on. The only downside is that if that replacement judge was identical to Dredd, then everyone would wonder what the point was of killing off the original -- there would have been be no real change to the strip. Alternatively, you replace him with a very different character, say Beeny, and then you risk losing one of the things that really appealed to the readers: Dredd's harshness / bluntness / single-mindedness / toughness or whatever you think defines his character. In either case, you risk diminishing the strip, leading to his eventual return one day like Johnny Alpha and so many other examples. So in the long run, it was just a "comic book death" all along, and not the bold move it was intended to be.

And it's naive to think that 2000 AD would kill off it's biggest commercial asset. (Unless it was swiftly followed by a reboot, and nobody wants that.)

So I don't expect, or want, Dredd to be killed off. It would make a fantastic story, and Michael Carroll has shown us how it could be done, which was fun, and he handled it well. But wisely, he didn't do it for real.

What does need to happen one day is for Dredd's ageing to be addressed somehow. We can't just keep saying "70 is the new 40" for the next ten years.

Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 16 May, 2016, 02:05:25 PM

Quote from: AlexF on 16 May, 2016, 12:06:38 PM
Or is it vital to the strip to remind readers every episode that the Justice Dept in MC-1 is fundamentally too small and ill-equipped to deal with routine crime-busting?

To be fair, after all the bitching about Chaos Day seeming to have little or no aftermath, it's a bit harsh to complain that there's now too much reference to it in ongoing stories...

Cheers

Jim

Point.

Quote from: Butch on 16 May, 2016, 05:44:50 PM

Quote from: Dark Jimbo on 16 May, 2016, 01:16:30 PM

Quote from: AlexF on 16 May, 2016, 12:06:38 PM
is it still possible, in a weekly Prog, to run a story about either an idiotic future fad or a bizarre future crime in MC1, then have Dredd turn up at the end to make an arrest + say something pithy?

Certainly possible - I think it's just more the case that the current writers are more interested in developing their respective supporting casts and doing multi-part thrillers than self-contained funny sci-fi episodes.

The ability to write a six page gag strip isn't a transferable skill in the wider comics marketplace, so there's little incentive to learn how.  Plus, whimsy is difficult to pull off and very divisive - look at the mixed reception afforded to Undercover Klegg.

I'm sure Tharg has a few six-pagers on file, to plug holes in schedules, but I doubt they're of the wacky crime variety. That's fine with me; we had 11 good years of those kinds of stories and another 18 okay years that illustrated the law of diminishing returns.

Yes to me there is nothing in the current post Day of Chaos set up that prevents the witty bizarre crime 6 pager, its just a matter of having the right script.

Quote from: Richard on 16 May, 2016, 09:11:17 PM
I don't expect, or want, Dredd to be killed off. It would make a fantastic story, and Michael Carroll has shown us how it could be done, which was fun, and he handled it well. But wisely, he didn't do it for real.

I do wonder if the current story was a dry run to see how the readers would react. A bit like I suspect that the whole Tharg replaced by the MiB of Vector 13 in the 90s was a toe in the water to see if they could change the name of the comic post Y2K.

A reason I (and almost certainly no-one else) think might be a good one for killing off Dredd is that he's become an obstacle in his own series to telling the kind of stories his series does (or did) best.

For a long time Dredd was the straight man in a strip where a lot of the comedy came from his stoney-faced reaction to the craziness around him. But those stories are a lot harder to tell now that the focus has shifted to him being an old man worn down by decades of pointless crime-fighting and questions about a system that has obviously failed anyway.

It's reflected too in the way the strip has moved away from telling stories where the threat is silly and threatening at the same time. Time was Dredd would be menaced by nutty foes that still managed to provide convincing menace (or would simply deal with a crime that wasn't a direct threat to his life and limb), whereas these days it feels like Dredd is largely up against sinister conspiracies of one stripe or another. Again, this fits in perfectly well with today's Joe Dredd, a man defined by his long grueling history and the failure of the system he's sworn to uphold. But those kind of stories can't be told forever either.

The trouble is that it's hard (for me) to see how the strip could change away from these kind of stories with Dredd the way he currently is. It's not that the strip has "grown up" either – personally I think good comedy is harder to do and more rewarding to read than straight drama, and Dredd used to be very good comedy indeed. It's evolved into more of a drama and that's fine, but if it's to keep going for another thirty years Dredd (and Joe Dredd) will have to keep evolving. While it's perfectly possible to simply start telling different kinds of stories again it feels like the character has gone too far down his current road for the writers to simply pretend he's not now a sadder, more complex character.

Which ironically, limits the stories that can be told with him – when he was more of a cypher various kinds of stories could be told and dropped, but now that he's become locked in as a relatively straight dramatic character that's pretty much the only kind of stories current Dredd works in (as some of the reaction to the recent Sensitive Klegg story shows).

(then again, Dredd always had a touch of the cranky, "get-off-my-lawn" old man about him. Perhaps in the future Justice Department and MC1 could evolve itself into a more moderate place and the comedy could come from Dredd still being a dour, brutal hardliner who's now over-reacting to the new cuddly world around him.)

(Forget I said anything.)

Personally, and its just my opinion, the problem I had with the recent sensitive Klegg story, wasn't that it didn't fit with the strip anymore, it was just that it wasn't very good.

The other earlier one, where he was being pursued by the Hunters' Club (hmmm hope I have got that apostrophe right) was perfectly fine.

Here's me holding out for a Dredd tv series (having almost given up all hope for a Dredd movie sequel).

And then there's a bunch of true fans who don't even want Dredd in the comic!

Captain Beefheart: "Somebody's had too much to think."

Dredd lives in a comic world so why not cure old age. Come up with a story that see Dredd not able to do his duty on the street. Where the crime win so a solution has to be found or Dredd retires or he has to get this new fountain of youth treatment that has just become law for aging population of Mega City One. Society can not cope with old age citizens in it system. So a Fountain of youth treatment is found so they are not a burden on the City and can work and be produced. Dredd is treated and get a new lease of life younger fitter and more brutal in this punishment of the law.

Personally I think that is going to be the ultimate solution for Rebellion, and it could even potentially work well with the character (an unending life of endless toil; Dredd opposing the plan but acceeding for the greater good), and as a source of plotlines (immortal judges, corruption, citizen's resentment etc). No need to make Dredd young again, just keep him shy of senescence and on the streets for as long as the property has value.

Quote from: Brendan Rowland on 17 May, 2016, 06:07:32 PM
Dredd lives in a comic world so why not cure old age. Come up with a story that see Dredd not able to do his duty on the street. Where the crime win so a solution has to be found or Dredd retires or he has to get this new fountain of youth treatment that has just become law for aging population of Mega City One. Society can not cope with old age citizens in it system. So a Fountain of youth treatment is found so they are not a burden on the City and can work and be produced. Dredd is treated and get a new lease of life younger fitter and more brutal in this punishment of the law.

We already have Stookie, and rejuve and that Daily Star Dredd story where they work out how to get the same effect as Stookie from the Rad Cockroach! 

It is accepted canon that if you want, you can get young and stay young, and it is only the Judges who deem this to be unlawful. 

Given the sorry state of the Judges, it is more ludicrous that they DON'T rejuve all active serving Judges!

As TB says it would be an interesting source of conflict for both teh Judges and the citizens to have a shift in the legality of rejuve tech

Quote from: Leigh S on 17 May, 2016, 08:41:47 PM

Quote from: Tordelback on 17 May, 2016, 08:18:16 PM
No need to make Dredd young again, just keep him shy of senescence and on the streets for as long as the property has value.

We already have Stookie, and rejuve and that Daily Star Dredd story where they work out how to get the same effect as Stookie from the Rad Cockroach!

While the stookie/rejuve route is consistent with established MC1 tech, it isn't consistent with Dredd's established character. Even under duress, a direct order, or in response to a grave emergency, it just doesn't seem like the kind of thing he would do.

Whatever Mike Carroll has injected Dredd with will probably provide the kind of solution Tordelback describes.  The stuff flowing through Dredd's distended veins will restore his vigour without giving him back his baby face, and it happened against his will.

I was only agreeing with Brendan's suggestion there.

I honestly can't see a better way to keep Dredd in the Prog for another 20 or 40 years (that should see most of us lot out anyway) than just keep patching him up so he can keep on judgin'.  Alternatives are:
- Ignore ageing
- Suspend real time
- Clone body/biochip/magic/full rejuve
- retirement/death and replacement by clone/protege
- reboot / Young Dredd
- end of strip

We've discussed all these at length before, and I've reached the personal conclusion that they are all shite outcomes: even the dramatic/ignoble death scene leaves us and Rebellion without the main man, and would inevitably lead to a reboot after a spell.

"Dredd forced by circumstances into limited anagathics every now and again" is the least bad solution. Mind you, I'm not a hugely creative writer, of which 2000AD has an abundance.

All are

Quote from: Tordelback on 17 May, 2016, 10:10:38 PM
We've discussed all these at length before, and I've reached the personal conclusion that they are all shite outcomes

PREACHER MAN! I agree - every solution we've come up with (including noble death scenes and turning Dredd into a team strip) is a wretched compromise. And totally shite.

Unlike our erstwhile friend, JOE SOAP, I don't think even Wagner has a solution up his sleeve that doesn't involve one of the credibility-stretching, half arsed proposals we've had fun with here.

Quote from: Butch on 17 May, 2016, 10:25:03 PM

Quote from: Tordelback on 17 May, 2016, 10:10:38 PM
We've discussed all these at length before, and I've reached the personal conclusion that they are all shite outcomes

PREACHER MAN! I agree - every solution we've come up with (including noble death scenes and turning Dredd into a team strip) is a wretched compromise. And totally shite.

Unlike our erstwhile friend, JOE SOAP, I don't think even Wagner has a solution up his sleeve that doesn't involve one of the credibility-stretching, half arsed proposals we've had fun with here.

Agreed. We've had Dredd strips without stoney face before, but never for prolonged periods of time and for good reasons.

Quote from: Butch on 17 May, 2016, 09:33:24 PM

Quote from: Leigh S on 17 May, 2016, 08:41:47 PM

Quote from: Tordelback on 17 May, 2016, 08:18:16 PM
No need to make Dredd young again, just keep him shy of senescence and on the streets for as long as the property has value.

We already have Stookie, and rejuve and that Daily Star Dredd story where they work out how to get the same effect as Stookie from the Rad Cockroach!

While the stookie/rejuve route is consistent with established MC1 tech, it isn't consistent with Dredd's established character. Even under duress, a direct order, or in response to a grave emergency, it just doesn't seem like the kind of thing he would do.

Whatever Mike Carroll has injected Dredd with will probably provide the kind of solution Tordelback describes.  The stuff flowing through Dredd's distended veins will restore his vigour without giving him back his baby face, and it happened against his will.

I always thought this was pretty much what happened to Dredd post-Necropolis - he was so ravaged by the Sisters of Death that the "cure" was basically a rejuve job. Guess it didn't take.

I think it is interesting to compare Dredd to other strips. Obviously Dredd is the only one that appears every week and so the real time element impacts him far more.

But let's consider the ABC Warriors. They have "lived" through possibly thousands of years when you take into account the time they were hanging around before turning up in Nemesis' time.

But hey they are robots so have a longer shelf life than a human. But they are not everlasting. They have under gone various refits and repairs at certain points.

So instead of a complete re-juve job for Dredd,how about piecemeal replacements in individual stories? He has already got bionic eyes, so why not a new heart at one point, other new organs, skin grafts etc. Ok it is still a technobabble answer, but isn't that much of a stretch beyond existing technology.

I think the arguments above that there is no ideal solution and that some form of re-juve is the "least worst" option are correct. Given that it is just a matter of working out the most credible way of doing that.

And hey I'm sure Mr Wagner or Mr Carroll can come up with something better than me.

He already has paper lungs, doesn't he?

Anyway - in the few US comics where the kill characters and they stay dead, they don't seem to have any problems with the comic-buying public with having other characters take the same (invariable) superhero mantle - with name and costume intact.

I'd be in favour of a Taggart - main character/actor dies and we follow the exploits of the supporting cast - in this case MC1 as much as any person.

I knew there was something else I wanted to write.  We've got 29 years of largely un-chronicled time on the streets for young Joe - if he did die in 122 years time we could start on the Year One / Year Two instead - introduce enough new judges and villains and (other than the main character) we wouldn't even know which ones will survive through to 2099.

Quote from: sheridan on 18 May, 2016, 12:52:59 PM
We've got 29 years of largely un-chronicled time on the streets for young Joe

What? After the way everyone pissed and moaned about the pre-Final Solution 'flashback' Strontium Dog stories 'lacking real danger', to the extent that in the end Wagner just bit the bullet and resurrected him?

I suspect it'll probably just end up being the same with Dredd. As TB notes, all easily envisaged solutions seem sub-optimal, but they'll just do something, and we'll moan about it, then we'll get over it.

Cheers

Jim

Quote from: Leigh S on 17 May, 2016, 08:41:47 PM

We already have Stookie, and rejuve and that Daily Star Dredd story where they work out how to get the same effect as Stookie from the Rad Cockroach! 

I understand why it would never happen, but I would *love* to see the Dredd-aging matter solved with a reference to a tiny piece of continuity from decades ago!

They can kill off Dredd, as the star is the city and not the man. Look at the bright side. We would get mountains of 'Tales from the Mega City' comic strips to reprint in floppies to bag with the non-Dredd Megazine.

Er. Not much of all this is making sense to me.

Remember readers, a fangasm doesn't last forever.

Quote from: SuperSurfer on 18 May, 2016, 01:51:50 PM
Remember readers, a fangasm doesn't last forever.

Are you suggesting that Rebellion transplant Dredd's personality into a woman?

No!

They could just do what Marvel and DC do and reboot it all and start afresh  :lol: :lol: :lol:

Well DC killed off Superman and he's not dead, so why not?!

I dreamt John Wagner had written up the script but Carlos refused to draw it.

I would like to see Dredd team with Devlin Waugh for a mega-epic, where in order to save Dredd (and himself) from certain death, Waugh bites Dredd. A vampire Dredd would rejuvenate the character pitting his repressed and stoic personality against the inevitable bloodlust.

Quote from: BLAZINOAH on 24 May, 2016, 03:24:10 PM
I would like to see Dredd team with Devlin Waugh for a mega-epic, where in order to save Dredd (and himself) from certain death, Waugh bites Dredd. A vampire Dredd would rejuvenate the character pitting his repressed and stoic personality against the inevitable bloodlust.

Dredd's already met Devlin in a comedic one-off, and the mega-epic Fetish - both worth a read if you're a Devlin/Dredd completeist.

As for making Dredd a vampire? No, no and thrice no!

Matt Smith rules out the brain transplant/clone route in his editorial from Megazine 372, which (by implication) also rules out the rejuve treatment:


(http://i.imgur.com/xB4AyVG.jpg?1)

In the Meg this month Dredd has a medical and is told he is still good for another 20years

...in the mailroom!

"Boot letter opener!"

Quote from: Butch on 17 July, 2016, 02:46:33 PM

Matt Smith rules out the brain transplant/clone route in his editorial from Megazine 372, which (by implication) also rules out the rejuve treatment:


(http://i.imgur.com/xB4AyVG.jpg?1)

Some internet nobodies discuss Matt Smith's editorial*:


(http://i.imgur.com/4OHdmtq.jpg?1)


* Although I'm sure Wagner wouldn't pass up the chance to write a death scene for Dredd ...

That first opinion is ridiculous. Just because it's fiction doesn't mean the writers shouldn't aim for some semblance of realism.

I knew I should have pixelated the rest. In defence of this forum's excellent Dog Deever (for it is he), he has a point - nobody ever complains that Bond would be in his nineties by now, or that Benedict Cumberbatch and Martin Freeman are playing characters who would have died around the time of WWII.

Dredd aging in real time was something Wagner and Grant probably introduced casually, without a moment's pause. If they'd dropped the conceit any time before 1990, everyone would speak about that aspect of the strip in the same way as MCPD, the Death Belt, and any of the other stuff that was ditched as the strip evolved.

Interesting sidebar, when was the first time it became clear the strip was pegged to real time? I think the Futsie story from Dredd's sojourn on Luna-1 was the first time the precise date was mentioned, but when was the next time it was made clear the same amount of time had elapsed between one event in MC1 and our own time?

I've decided I  do know. He should be killed by a traitorous Judge/old robot helper and come back as a zombie. Zombie Dredd. He can then judge the living for the crime of life.

Whaddayamean ya heard it before? :-*

It was the story in prog 45, set on New Year's Eve when 2099 becomes 2100.

I see the real time thing as a strength of the comic strip rather than as some sort of problem. If you read a Spider-Man comic where he's still a teenager, then that means none of the stories that happened more than two or three years ago could have happened to that character. Essentially they reboot Spider-Man every couple of years (without necessarily saying so explicitly). But with Dredd, the character in this week's prog is the same guy as in prog 2. And it's not just Dredd growing older, it's the sense of history passing each year. The date moves on, chief judges come and go, supporting characters die and stay dead. We've seen Beeny go from being a child citizen, joining the Academy of Law as a new cadet, solve her first case as an experienced cadet, graduate to full judge and join the Council of Five. All of that would be impossible if the strip remained fixed in time. I'll genuinely stop reading if that ever happens.

Presumably the second Christmas story.

Edited for: should've turned to the last page before replying!

Quote from: Butch on 24 July, 2016, 08:20:32 PMeveryone would speak about that aspect of the strip in the same way as MCPD, the Death Belt, and any of the other stuff that was ditched as the strip evolved

The Death Belt was a convenient means of forcing Dredd to travel across the Cursed Earth, and never really made any sense, but it's easy enough to explain away, given the ever-changing volatility of the entire area. The MCPD is an odd one, though. How often did cops even show up in those early strips? I remember it only being once or twice. (I suppose you could argue they were the last vestiges of the old system — perhaps some deal in place in certain areas where they remain in a basic support role to the Judges, in a sort of similar manner to PSVs in the UK.)

I've got a list of all MCPD references I'll post when I'm back at my PC. There's quite a few pre-Cursed Earth, though sometimes they're only referenced on a video camera LABEL. It's easy to retcon that Cal got rid of them when he took power.

Justice Dept still used civilian auxiliaries today. It's not a big leap to say that the last cops became auxiliaries and lost their arrest powers. Cal could have done it, or Goodman could have gone it while Dredd was in the Cursed Earth.

Quote from: glassstanley on 25 July, 2016, 11:22:21 AM
I've got a list of all MCPD references I'll post when I'm back at my PC. There's quite a few pre-Cursed Earth, though sometimes they're only referenced on a video camera LABEL. It's easy to retcon that Cal got rid of them when he took power.

I'd always assumed they were the vestiges of the old system, which were finally abolished while Dredd was on the moon.  Timeline-wise he spent six months in Luna City 1, the story Firebug, then however long he was in the Cursed Earth.  Immediately on his return we had the Day the Law Died, which took at least 100 days and involved a lot of reforms (to say the least).  One way or another we're looking at about a year of Dredd being away from normal duties, during which time the outdated police system could have been quietly disposed of.

Plot twist, Call-Me-Kenneth massacred the last patrol vehicle and the remaining 3 cops in the whole MCPD decided to call it a day!