The Political Thread

[Jimmy Baker's Assistant]

I The results of the 2010 General Election proved to Scotland that our voices carry no weight and that, when it comes to the Union, our presence is nominal. So why stay?

This is the rub. Some Scots don't believe it's a democracy if English votes count the same as theirs.

[Theblazeuk]

I don't think that being outvoted means that.

[Old Tankie]

Scotland has already got its own parliament, which is more than what England has.

[8-Ball]

I'm not going to say anymore than I already have. Whatever the result things are going to have to change.

[Jimmy Baker's Assistant]

I don't think that being outvoted means that.

Being outvoted is not the same as being disenfranchised.

The difference is very important, especially considering Salmond's plan is to hand economic control of Scotland over to the rest of the UK when he tears up the union. That's when you'll find out what it really means not to have a say in how your country is run.

[Modern Panther]

You mean when he argues in favour of the Bank of England having pretty much exactly the powers it has at the moment?

[Modern Panther]

Nah, you know what...
I was going to leave it at that, but over the last couple of days you've made a couple of bizarre claims which you've made no attempt to back up.  First off, you said:

Salmond is only pushing this because he can then blame all the economic damage "independence" has caused on the English.

right, so people who have spent their whole lives pushing for a particular political stance are, as soon as they get it, going to try to destroy their national economy just to get people to hate the English?  Then you said...

we take offence at being slagged off relentless by Salmond and his cronies it's just because we're English

Give me a single example of Salmond slagging off the English?  He's complained about westminster, he's argued about politics, but I am not aware of a single occasion when he, or his "cronies" have slagged off the English.

I am certain many nationalists don't even realise how anti-English they come across to the English...and don't understand that he's a loveable crusader for social justice, a concept that in itself we also don't understand.

You do realise how anti-Scottish your sarcasm sounds?

And then finally...

Salmond's plan is to hand economic control of Scotland over to the rest of the UK when he tears up the union. That's when you'll find out what it really means not to have a say in how your country is run.

Salmond's plan is to retain sterling and allow the Bank of England to set interest rates.  Exactly what happens at the moment.  If anything, under a shared sterling Scotland could argue for more control of interest rates.  At teh moment, any Scottish voice or concerns can easily be drowned out.

Suppose for a second that every single politician in Scotland was in agreement on a particular issue.  Even then, the fact that they make up a minority in Westminster would allow the rest of the UK to out vote anything they wanted.
Now, of course you can argue that that is how democracy works.  Scots are in a minority and should expect to be treated as such.  That's exactly what the debate is about.

Scotland has it's own legal system, a different education system, a different health system.  It has its own parliament, its own problems.  The question is, do enough of us consider ourselves sufficiently different to be a separate nation? 

It's not about hating the English.  It's nothing to do with the English.  It's about Scotland and how it sees itself in the world.  Its about being responsible for ourselves and trying to solve our own problems, whilst trying to maintain a close working relationship with our nearest neighbours and closest allies.

[Jim_Campbell]

It's not about hating the English.

In some respects, it kind of is. When you'll support France in an England/France rugby match... that shit hurts, man.

[8-Ball]

It's not about hating the English.

In some respects, it kind of is. When you'll support France in an England/France rugby match... that shit hurts, man.

No, Jim, it isn't. This is the crux of the matter - Scottish people are not English. I genuinely hate it that Scottish people have to wrap themselves in the Union Jack to prove their "loyalty."

[Frank]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-28986271

FUUUUCK! The UK's terror threat level has been increased to SEVERE. I'm sure you all remember the wholesale slaughter and lawlessness which descended upon our shores for the half decade following the 7/7 attacks, when the threat level never dipped below SEVERE.

You'll want to stock up on shotgun shells and powdered fillet steak rations so you can sit out the latest dark age which is set to begin when 250 skinny teenagers called Muhammed return from their gap year of dysentery and getting fewer shots on target than a nine year old girl with an uzi to take up the offer of a place studying Computer Science/Business at their second choice university.

[Hoagy]

They want to push a passport protocol through is all.

[Steve Green]

Cloudy with a chance of atrocities.

[Old Tankie]

Totally agree with 8-Ball on his last post.  Why should the Scots support the English in sport?  They're Scots not English.  I had some great holidays in Scotland; spent half my Army career serving with a Scottish regiment; made some great pals who are Scottish, but support them in a sporting contest, no chance, I'm English!

[Frank]

You pair of Muslim apologists sicken me. Maybe when it's too late, and you are dead, you will finally wake up.

[Dandontdare]

First off, you said:

Salmond is only pushing this because he can then blame all the economic damage "independence" has caused on the English.

right, so people who have spent their whole lives pushing for a particular political stance are, as soon as they get it, going to try to destroy their national economy just to get people to hate the English? 

I don 't think that was the point he was trying to make. It's not that Salmond is going to deliberately destroy the economy, that's stupid, but if he wins the vote and his pie-in-the-sky economic utopia doesn't happen; if the "scaremongering" turns out be simple prescience;  if rUK and the BoE don't allow currency union (as they have steadfastly said will happen) - then they will never admit they were wrong, they will simply fall back on the ready made excuse of 'English intransigence' to blame for their woes. It's the same way the Tories and Labour excuse every failure by blaming the previous administration, but on a bigger scale (and longer-term).

Salmond's plan is to retain sterling and allow the Bank of England to set interest rates.  Exactly what happens at the moment.  If anything, under a shared sterling Scotland could argue for more control of interest rates.  At the moment, any Scottish voice or concerns can easily be drowned out.

As I can't see a massive U-turn on currency union happening, you'll be left with the "Panama option" -  at the moment the BoE must make those decisions for the interests of the whole UK. After independence, then they MUST make those decisions for the interests of rUK, and if that happens to be against Scottish interests, it will just be tough shit. A national bank will not, can not, be beholden to the interests of a foreign country*

and as for your second point, Scotland "could argue" for the moon on a stick, but it doesn't mean that they will get it.

*unless it's the USA of course. All hail our global economic overlords.